Idlewild

I was at an event where Lee Burns (head of DOH EMS division) was speaking. She indicated NY will not be adopting either of those specs and will be staying with their part 800 spec for a while. They might be upgrading a few bits and pieces but nothing like adopting NFPA or Caas. The thing to remember about these specs is once they are legal, all ambulance builders will adjust to them. For example, NY is one of only 7 or so states that do not recognize the GSA KKK spec. That spec has been widely adopted across the country since the 70s. But any ambulance sold in Ny is atleast a KKK level ambulance. It costs the manufacturer too much money to build to different specs. Better to build to the most stringent and anything beneath that level is covered. The biggest impact of the NFPA spec was the side impact static load test, the interior cabinet latches, and the rear chevron requirement. Nothing too crazy. All manufacturers had to do the side static load test and if needed, already adjusted their production process to correct any issues. Anything else from that point was just already available options you could add anyway. Best recommendation I could offer is- don't get held up with national specs. Focus more on the quality of the truck your looking at and how safe it is. The best builders in this industry greatly exceed any standard in the country or North America already.

The department I ran with back in CT before I moved to NY had an 06 and 08 F-450 from someone (Wasn't Horton I know that) and had the same issues. The 06 had a Monroe air suspension and the 08 had another system... I can't remember the name but I think it starts with a K. It turns out both air systems had caused cracks in the frame and I think both ambulances had to have their frames fixed too. Was that vehicle you mentioned an F series? I wonder if that was the cause also for your department? The squad I ride with now in NY was looking to purchase a new ambulance this year but it was tabled to 2015. We called around 30 different departments in the NY/CT/ NJ area about Horton and never heard a bad thing from anyone of them. I wonder if you were just getting some bad service or maybe the truck was a lemon? I learned a hard lesson from my department in CT. Always send the trucks back to the dealer. We were using a local guy who really didn't know anything about ambulances and we found we were spending more per month to keep these things on the road because he didn't know how to fix them and kept throwing parts at them. When we reached out to another dealer (not the one who sold us the ambulances) they were happy to fix them but stuff always kept breaking after the fact. Turns out, the second dealer was kind of sabotaging our rigs so we would replace them and buy his. Needless to say, we didn't. Best of luck with your new PL. If your department is the one I think it is... I saw that new rig on PL's website... looks sweet.

Depends on what your definition of safer is? Based on my experience, any manufacturer can give you 5 point harnesses, forward facing seats, custom cabinet configurations with everything facing you... Etc. My specific version of safety centers around Structural verification and Occupant safety. For that, Horton right now, IMO, is leading the pack based on the information out there on manufacturers websites and comparable info we had from the reps. The Horton also had the best ride by far. Everyone's experiences may be different. These were just my personal views. All the main manufacturers have a Rep here in NY so you should just call everyone in and see for yourself. You might like a different one. That's the beauty of all this.

All good info. I didn't realize until you just posted this, that Canada has a bunch of different standards. So I did some research ( it was a slow day) and read through the CMH 20.21 standards, which were the most comprehensive. No question, they are better than KKK 1812-F and NFPA 1917 here in the states, but not much better. I found the website of a Demers dealer from the Midwest who had a PDF of the testing forces they use to meet the Canadian spec. Comparing those numbers to some of the other manufacturers numbers we were provided, I don't think other manufacturers "can't" meet the CMH because they do. It's more likely the stringent documentation requirements to adhere to those specific Canadian tests, which mirror the tests here in the US, but require different paperwork. I see it this way, if Demers has X numbers for their cabinet pull test, Load Tests, and Seat Belt tests, but Horton, AEV, and Braun have Y numbers for their tests, and Y is better, than its not that they can't meet those standards like you said. I thinks it's more likely the home field advantage, like you said, plays the biggest factor. With so many more providers with statistically bigger budgets here in the states, is it worth setting up shop in another country? Plus dealing with all the export fees? It's cheaper to import from Canada then export too Canada. I'm not throwing stones at Demers understand, they might be a great truck. Just though the standards vs standards conversation is a great one to have. The US is really behind.

Forgot to add something. We were looking at a Type II also. The Type II's all start out as cargo vans and only have to meet the cargo van standards, which are very minimal. Yes, those standards are better than the KKK standards and do require all aspects of the vehicle to be tested. So in an argument of who's standards are better, the Type II standards win. But when you look at the actual tests of the vehicles, the Ford E-350 P15 cargo vans do not undergo front and side impact testing, and only gets 2 stars in the rollover test. We used the safercar.gov website to look at the test results. The NHTSA did not provide testing results for the E-350 cargo vans for front and side impact since 2006. So we decided a box was the better way to go. I guess the moral of my story is, do not accept everything at face value.

There is a difference between Crash Testing and some of the other tests that ambulance manufacturers do. Per the outdated KKK spec, and now the new NFPA 1917 spec, all ambulance builders are required to perform load tests on the roof of their ambulances. Roughly 2.5 times the weight of the vehicle completed. After researching this topic quite a bit for my department, I found only three ambulance manufacturers have ever conducted any dynamic testing on their bodies. Wheeled Coach did a bullet vehicle and drop test back in 08. AEV did a bullet vehicle test in 08, and Horton did/does a whole bunch of SAE Sled, Destructive, Hygee, and Rollover testing. From what I can see on their website, their last set of testing was 08 as well. In talking to the Demers Rep, Lifeline Rep and Braun rep in my area I learned all they do is the static load testing, with the exception of Demers doing some in house pull testing on their cabinet wall. I think anything is better than nothing... but for my money, the Horton impressed me the most. They were also the only ones who have an airbag system in the back of their ambulances, but it's only for rollovers right now though. I'm not sure who said Horton doesn't release their crash testing data, but all I had to do was ask during the last demo we had with them and they provided us with everything, AEV was also very forthcoming with info during their visit. Both have everything right on their website. Everyone else we talked to from the other builders was just kind of gun shy on the topic.