[x635]

Found this interesting tidbit in a chain email I got.......it's true.

GM has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the USA , claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the USA .

Who's on the verge of bankruptcy and coming to the American people with its hands out for money??

[FDNYDCHI]

good point..

[ny10570]

The same is true with every foreign and domestic auto maker. First, do you know who owns which brands anymore? After NAFTA American companies starting sending jobs to Canada and Mexico. To avoid the foreign stigma Honda, Nissan, and Toyota started building in the US. Want to help the economy with your car, buy the one you want and go to the local guy to get it fixed and maintained.

[NWFDMedic]

Found this interesting tidbit in a chain email I got.......it's true.

That's right, we'll just let more of this country's wealth leave the country. Hiring some American workers in American plants is one thing; our wealth is still going to parts unknown. Buy American and tariff the heck out of autos from countries that don't pay a liveable wage to their employees.

[JackEMT]

Two other factors, and this will probably spark debate/discussion:
- The Japanese auto makers with factories in the US are probably employing non-union employees
- The Japanese auto makers with factories in the US are not carrying 100,000's retired employees. GM alone is paying benefits for over 340,000 retired employees.

[MTACOP]

Unions are losing their power ALMOST everywhere outside of the area we work in. But in all fairness the management of GM and the other giants have have done more than their share of ruining their businesses. Sure hey can complain about their retirees, but since they chose to maintain their own pension plans they also have a hand in the mismanagement of it.

[FFPCogs]

I agree 100% with making doing business in this country as difficult as most of our trading "partners" do in theirs. At the very least we shoudn't trade with any country that doesn't meet our anti-pollution standards. Not simply to help keep the world "green", but hey those standards cost our businesses millions if not billions to meet...let our competitors shell out a nice chunk of their profits to do busines here and level the playing field.
But let's be fair Americans themselves are to blame as well. As sickening as it may be you really can't fault a Company for sending jobs overseas for a couple of reasons.
1) The main goal of any business is to make money, if costs are lower overseas even with all the logistical expenses, than that move is expedient from profit standpoint. It is no different than a mom and pop lowballing the competition do get customers. So long as profit is king, jobs will be lost.
2) The main culprit of increased costs for American companies here...wages and benefits. Now this may be an unpopular view, but we Americans expect the most for the least when it comes to salaries. The concern for the nation or even the next worker takes a far backseat to our personal gain. I'm not condemning anyone for trying to make a living, or getting what they are worth, but at some point the common good should overtake personal gratification. Unions for all their good work and necessity can and do price themselves and their workers right out of the game. One can only go to the well so many times before it dries up, or the owner of it cuts you off. The auto industry being a good example of this. Their bailout package deal was lost in large part, due to the union's choice NOT to make the concessions necessary so that ALL or worst case MOST could keep their jobs. BTW I'm not anti union, I was in a couple over the years, but as with many aspects of American life it seems that greed has overtaken all else, and we are now enjoying the fruits of that attitude....and yes even in the Fire Service.


Cogs

[NWFDMedic]

Two other factors, and this will probably spark debate/discussion:
- The Japanese auto makers with factories in the US are probably employing non-union employees
- The Japanese auto makers with factories in the US are not carrying 100,000's retired employees. GM alone is paying benefits for over 340,000 retired employees.

Union or non-union really doesn't faze me in the auto industry. The Japanese (and other Asian) automakers are putting facilities in the US knowing that it decreases their profit margin a bit because of higher taxes, regulatory hurdles, and higher wages. However, it's purely a political move to placate the American people. The bottom line is that the real wealth associated with selling a new car is going to some rich people in Japan as opposed to staying in our economy. They've put pennies back in the economy by building plants here, but are still robbing the dollars.

The auto industry is just part of the iceberg. Our economy's consumption far outpaces its productivity and we are beginning to see the results. Heck, in the last few years, not only have we been losing production jobs, service jobs are going overseas as well. We better start providing something for the domestic and global markets or WE will eventually be the third world country.

[FFPCogs]

History repeats itself.
For an insight to a future devoid of manufacturing and service jobs read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire". Although an extremely long tome, you would be suprised at the similarities. The stongest, richest "nation" of it's time, the superpowerr of the ancient world, became a hostage to it's enemies as piece by piece their ability to feed, manufacture for, and defend themselves were "privatized" or shipped overseas for profit.


Cogs

This post has been edited by FFPCogs: 17 December 2008 - 09:31 AM

[ny10570]

Its a global economy at some point the money is going overseas. Build me the best product and I'll buy it.

The auto makers made the same mistakes everyone running a pension system makes. As soon as the Pension starts to outperform its expected earning the company cuts their contributions and commits them somewhere else. The Pension system is not a revenue stream!! If it was 1998 you told your financial adviser you were going to stop you retirement contributions because the market was doing great he would call you an idiot and remind you that the market goes up and down and one of the best protections against market fluctuation is continuous investment. Instead governments and corporations alike don't know how to handle a surplus and spend like drunken sailors. Next on Patterson's chopping block is 20 and out pensions. Is the problem that they cost more now or is more likely that they over performed and were underfunded for the last 10 to 15 years.

[242steve]

Want to help the economy with your car, buy the one you want and go to the local guy to get it fixed and maintained.

I second that.

[huzzie59]

John Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE IN JAPAN ) for 6am.
While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he shaved with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG )
He put on a dress shirt (MADE IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE ) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA )
After cooking his breakfast in his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA ) he sat down with his calculator (MADE IN MEXICO )
to see how much he could spend today. After setting his watch (MADE IN TAIWAN ) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA )
he got in his car (MADE IN GERMANY ) filled it with GAS (from Saudi Arabia ) and continued his search for
a good paying AMERICAN JOB.
At the end of yet another discouraging and fruitless day checking his Computer (Made In Malaysia ),
John decided to relax for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL ) poured himself
a glass of wine (MADE IN FRANCE ) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA ),
and then wondered why he can't find a good paying job in AMERICA.

[M' Ave]

I have a Japanese car, made in Japan. Why? Because it's a great car at a fair price who's manufacturer has a track record of terrific reliability. American cars have not kept up AT ALL and some are flat out crap. A few models are starting to come around now, but it's a little too late.

They made their big bucks selling gas guzzling SUV's only to suffer when gas went through the roof. They ran that company poorly and now they want to get a free-o handout so they can stay in business?

The flip-side is, they have a lot of employees who's fault is is NOT. I suppose it's hard to imagine leaving all of them out in the cold, not to mention the drain that would put on the Fed. Gov't.

Tough problem.......

[lhfdvolly]

Found this interesting tidbit in a chain email I got.......it's true.

So if it's true then there are no more GM domestic assembly plants in the US? Or was this quote taken out of proportion and what was really misunderstood was that GM spent the last 30 years setting up shop in foreign countries to support the markets there? You remember that the playing field is global and has been for quite some time. It is not always profitable for a company, especially an American company, to build at home and ship overseas. The Japanese have built plants here for the same reasons except they have also been given huge tax brakes to do so paid for by you and me. For the US market production GM only has factories in two foreign contries, one in Canada and one in Mexico. This link will give you a list of GM assembly plants arount the world;
http://en.wikipedia....of_GM_factories

And for you non-believers, I own a 19 year old Chevy pickup with over 100,000 miles on it and I never had a problem. Sitting next to it in the Garage is a 10 year old Mercedes that is starting to rot out. No Rot on the pickup. And I've owned both since new. My neighbor across the street has owned a 2000 Tahoe since new which now has over 300,000 miles on it and guess what, never a problem. I also owned two Japanese vehichles and had nothing but problems with both of them. Japanese quality is a matter of perception I guess.

[JackEMT]

it scares me thinking how much we import, and how much we owe foreign companies. Not to mention, how many of our companies are being sold to foreign companies, like Budweiser

History repeats itself.
For an insight to a future devoid of manufacturing and service jobs read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire". Although an extremely long tome, you would be suprised at the similarities. The stongest, richest "nation" of it's time, the superpowerr of the ancient world, became a hostage to it's enemies as piece by piece their ability to feed, manufacture for, and defend themselves were "privatized" or shipped overseas for profit.
Cogs

[MVFD334]

So if it's true then there are no more GM domestic assembly plants in the US? Or was this quote taken out of proportion and what was really misunderstood was that GM spent the last 30 years setting up shop in foreign countries to support the markets there? You remember that the playing field is global and has been for quite some time. It is not always profitable for a company, especially an American company, to build at home and ship overseas. The Japanese have built plants here for the same reasons except they have also been given huge tax brakes to do so paid for by you and me. For the US market production GM only has factories in two foreign contries, one in Canada and one in Mexico. This link will give you a list of GM assembly plants arount the world;
http://en.wikipedia....of_GM_factories

And for you non-believers, I own a 19 year old Chevy pickup with over 100,000 miles on it and I never had a problem. Sitting next to it in the Garage is a 10 year old Mercedes that is starting to rot out. No Rot on the pickup. And I've owned both since new. My neighbor across the street has owned a 2000 Tahoe since new which now has over 300,000 miles on it and guess what, never a problem. I also owned two Japanese vehichles and had nothing but problems with both of them. Japanese quality is a matter of perception I guess.

Poll a 100 people of this scenerio and Im gonna go a vast majority say the oppisite. And you cant compare cars to trucks or SUV's. Look at resale value. Besides a Jeep, I cant see anything beating Honda's and Toyota's. and in tight times when it comes to car buying unfortunitly Im not gonna be concerned with who loses a job or if our country loses another dollar.

[ny10570]

So if it's true then there are no more GM domestic assembly plants in the US? Or was this quote taken out of proportion and what was really misunderstood was that GM spent the last 30 years setting up shop in foreign countries to support the markets there? You remember that the playing field is global and has been for quite some time. It is not always profitable for a company, especially an American company, to build at home and ship overseas. The Japanese have built plants here for the same reasons except they have also been given huge tax brakes to do so paid for by you and me. For the US market production GM only has factories in two foreign contries, one in Canada and one in Mexico. This link will give you a list of GM assembly plants arount the world;
http://en.wikipedia....of_GM_factories

And for you non-believers, I own a 19 year old Chevy pickup with over 100,000 miles on it and I never had a problem. Sitting next to it in the Garage is a 10 year old Mercedes that is starting to rot out. No Rot on the pickup. And I've owned both since new. My neighbor across the street has owned a 2000 Tahoe since new which now has over 300,000 miles on it and guess what, never a problem. I also owned two Japanese vehichles and had nothing but problems with both of them. Japanese quality is a matter of perception I guess.

That list isn't the most accurate. Hell it still has Tarrytown still listed as open and the plant as of now is a flat concrete slab overlooking the Hudson. Even still there are a lot of US plants listed as closed or closing in the last 10 years and not too many opening up.

[lhfdvolly]

That list isn't the most accurate. Hell it still has Tarrytown still listed as open and the plant as of now is a flat concrete slab overlooking the Hudson. Even still there are a lot of US plants listed as closed or closing in the last 10 years and not too many opening up.

It's probably an oversight. The list can't be too old it was announced last year that truck production would cease at the Oshawa plant and the list indicates 2008 as the closure date. Truck production will be consolidated in Fort Wayne (where my truck was built). Most of the plants that closed were old plants to begin with and to rebuild them wouldn't be cost effective. According to the list in that last 10 years GM has opened 5 plants in the US. Considering the costs that's not bad for a company in financial dire straits.

[ny10570]

wikipedia is all info from internet users who either know or think they know the answer. Its not about the age of the list, but the accuracy. How many of those plants were announced but had to be scrapped due to financial problems? How many other plants have closed? I don't know the real answer to any of these questions. What I do know is that every car is either built, assembled or made from parts here there and everywhere. Volvo, Mazda, Saab, and for a few years Jaguar were cars made by American Automakers and depending on the model built overseas and shipped here. Then there's Chrysler. Partners since the 70's with Mitsubishi bought out by Daimler Benze in the 90's then sold out to a private firm a year or so ago with Benze retaining somewhere around 25% stake if I remember correctly. All though there was story a few months ago when the automakers were taking their high cost fuel beatings that Benze was trying to say the stock has almost no value and were trying to unload it at zero value. So again I ask, how much does it really matter which car you buy? The argument could be made that Nissan and Toyota have an growing market share and are actively expanding american production. Buying from them ensures more Americans get jobs. Buying from the "big 3" means the money keeps a few Americans employed and either helps to pay back the eventual auto bailout or the Japanese automakers who takeover the American automakers.

I have a 2002 civic. I've paid for gas, oil, brakes, and tires. To top it all off, much less gas than most. Every company makes lemons and gems. In my experience and my family's, the Germans and Japanese cars have the better track record without exception.

[antiquefirelt]

Two other factors, and this will probably spark debate/discussion:
- The Japanese auto makers with factories in the US are probably employing non-union employees
- The Japanese auto makers with factories in the US are not carrying 100,000's retired employees. GM alone is paying benefits for over 340,000 retired employees.

One must ask what it is these foreign automakers do to keep their employees from forming a Union? Pay them as well and give them excellent benefits? There's no reason they could unionize if they felt to was to their benefit. The long term though is that they too will end up carrying significant financial burdens as their employees retire and require long term benefits. It's just that their workforce is much "younger".