Town of Wallkill fire district considers 'pay-per-call' plan

[Geppetto 31]

Town of Wallkill fire district considers 'pay-per-call' plan

Program would be first in state

Keith Goldberg

Times Herald-Record

07/06/10

TOWN OF WALLKILL — Volunteer firefighters sacrifice countless hours to fight blazes, handle car crashes and undergo training — without seeing a dime. But one local department wants to change that.

The Mechanicstown Fire District wants to pay its firefighters $5 for every call they respond to, as well as every drill they attend lasting at least two hours....

...But Orange County Fire Coordinator John Horan says a pay-per-call system forever alters the idea of a volunteer fire department. "There's no more volunteerism in what we do," Horan says. "It may be old-fashioned, but I think that's unfortunate."...

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100706/NEWS/7060322

Edited July 6, 2010 by Geppetto

[helicopper 1,050]

Forgive the cynicism but $5 per call/drill? What incentive is that? They get one beer (half at Yankee Stadium), half a pack of cigarettes, or almost 2 gallons of gas for going on a fire call.

How is this going to improve personnel recruitment and retention?

[notch138 7]

Forgive the cynicism but $5 per call/drill? What incentive is that? They get one beer (half at Yankee Stadium), half a pack of cigarettes, or almost 2 gallons of gas for going on a fire call.

How is this going to improve personnel recruitment and retention?

I must agree, $5 per call is nothing. Most of us spend that at the call between cig's, gas, maybe a coffee. If you break it down were the member is responding to 25% of all the functions (alarms/drills) they will only bring is and avg of $93.75 /mo. Thats not really alot. concerding that an officer can put that out of pocket for coffee for the guys on drill's every month if he/she does not care or forgets to about rembursment

Edited July 6, 2010 by notch138

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Forgive the cynicism but $5 per call/drill? What incentive is that? They get one beer (half at Yankee Stadium), half a pack of cigarettes, or almost 2 gallons of gas for going on a fire call.

How is this going to improve personnel recruitment and retention?

$5 does not seem alot agreed, but the most you can make is $6000 a year. If you are a very active guy, or someone new with a shift work schedule you can shoot for the $6000. Depending on the payment schedule I'd take it 2 times a year. A check for $3000 right before the summer June, and one in Dec. is not a bad incentive I think. JMO

Depts in Jersey have been doing this for years...Fort lee for one and it works great. I would rather have this in place then the LOSAP that is in my Dept. now....and I bet 90% of the membership would rather get soemthing now then wait till 55. So it's not volunteer anymore, call it what you will. I think this system is better then the LOSAP.

[mfc2257 464]

A department I was a member of some time ago did this for EMS calls. The department ran 2000+ ems calls per year with two BLS rigs and was starting to see a drop off in member responses. As a result they paid each member $10 per ems call where the patient was transported locally, and $25 per call when they were transported more than 15 miles. For inter-hospital transports or nursing home transports members were paid $50. The result was great. The members had some extra money, the rigs double pulled almost all the time and ems billing revenues went up. Ambulance responses for standby's and fire/rescue calls were not compensated unless a patient was transported. An added positive result was that trip sheets became much more thorough and were completed in a timely manner. In order to be paid for a job, the trip sheet had to meet certain criteria AND be submitted within a specified time following the call.

Edited July 6, 2010 by mfc2257

[JetPhoto 626]

Depts in Jersey have been doing this for years...Fort lee for one and it works great. I would rather have this in place then the LOSAP that is in my Dept. now....and I bet 90% of the membership would rather get soemthing now then wait till 55. So it's not volunteer anymore, call it what you will. I think this system is better then the LOSAP.

I've been in the fire service & losap program for 24 years. Sure it's nice to have money right away but I would rather have it when I turn 60 @ $30 a month for every month I served. Thats a lot more than $5 per call.

[Alpinerunner 61]

The New Hartford FD does this too I've heard. If it works, great!

[helicopper 1,050]

Does the member receive a 1099 from the agency for this "income"? Doesn't that screw up their taxes since nothing is being withheld from this?

The result was great. The members had some extra money, the rigs double pulled almost all the time and ems billing revenues went up. Ambulance responses for standby's and fire/rescue calls were not compensated unless a patient was transported. An added positive result was that trip sheets became much more thorough and were completed in a timely manner. In order to be paid for a job, the trip sheet had to meet certain criteria AND be submitted within a specified time following the call.

Double pulled? What's that mean. I hope it doesn't mean riding like a clown car with a crew of four or five.

Trip sheets (PCR's in NY) should be filled out completely and correctly regardless of compensation. That's always been a pet peeve of mine (right ALSFF?) and if someone needs to be compensated to do it right they should get a job at WalMart.

[mfc2257 464]

Does the member receive a 1099 from the agency for this "income"? Doesn't that screw up their taxes since nothing is being withheld from this?

Double pulled? What's that mean. I hope it doesn't mean riding like a clown car with a crew of four or five.

Trip sheets (PCR's in NY) should be filled out completely and correctly regardless of compensation. That's always been a pet peeve of mine (right ALSFF?) and if someone needs to be compensated to do it right they should get a job at WalMart.

Member's could choose to have taxes withheld.

Double pull is a term used frequently in the mid-atlantic (DC Metro) for getting two of the same apparatus out simultaneously. In my previous post I was saying that with the per call incentive pay, every time there were two calls for EMS, both ambulances got out more frequently as opposed to one making it out and the next failing and going next due.

The PCR's were taken by hand on a standard form. The essential information was always there otherwise you wouldn't be permitted to crewchief an EMS rig. The point I was making, was that the PCR's were typed into the computerized reporting system faster, with less rejections/corrections to be made when there was a check waiting on it at the end of the week. If the EMS Captain didn't like the narrative, or if the EMT dragged his feet getting it transferred to the computer then the paycheck was held until it was accepted by the Captain and forwarded to the state for archiving.

[post4031 16]

I should be interesting to see how this turns out. It is not legal in NY currently and the way the LOSAP laws are written someone cannot be receiving pay and credit towards LOSAP. My department posed this question to the Association of Fire Districts Attorney some time ago and he not only stated the above but also stated it would open up a can of worms because it would conflict with a host of other laws in New York.

Your either have volunteer or career personnel or both in NYS, no part time or paid call. I do feel that there should be a provision giving a fire district the ability or in between step for paid call or part time staff.

[helicopper 1,050]

Member's could choose to have taxes withheld.

Double pull is a term used frequently in the mid-atlantic (DC Metro) for getting two of the same apparatus out simultaneously. In my previous post I was saying that with the per call incentive pay, every time there were two calls for EMS, both ambulances got out more frequently as opposed to one making it out and the next failing and going next due.

The PCR's were taken by hand on a standard form. The essential information was always there otherwise you wouldn't be permitted to crewchief an EMS rig. The point I was making, was that the PCR's were typed into the computerized reporting system faster, with less rejections/corrections to be made when there was a check waiting on it at the end of the week. If the EMS Captain didn't like the narrative, or if the EMT dragged his feet getting it transferred to the computer then the paycheck was held until it was accepted by the Captain and forwarded to the state for archiving.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm glad it's working out for you guys.

[helicopper 1,050]

I should be interesting to see how this turns out. It is not legal in NY currently and the way the LOSAP laws are written someone cannot be receiving pay and credit towards LOSAP. My department posed this question to the Association of Fire Districts Attorney some time ago and he not only stated the above but also stated it would open up a can of worms because it would conflict with a host of other laws in New York.

Your either have volunteer or career personnel or both in NYS, no part time or paid call. I do feel that there should be a provision giving a fire district the ability or in between step for paid call or part time staff.

Illegal for just fire districts or other entities as well?

[Bnechis 3,961]

I should be interesting to see how this turns out. It is not legal in NY currently and the way the LOSAP laws are written someone cannot be receiving pay and credit towards LOSAP. My department posed this question to the Association of Fire Districts Attorney some time ago and he not only stated the above but also stated it would open up a can of worms because it would conflict with a host of other laws in New York.

Your either have volunteer or career personnel or both in NYS, no part time or paid call. I do feel that there should be a provision giving a fire district the ability or in between step for paid call or part time staff.

I am not sure about the legal status, but about 2 years ago I downloaded a list from NYS OFPC of the type of FD's in NYS and they listed x vol, x career and 3 (or) 5 paid on call depts.

[ffp20 14]

(I should be interesting to see how this turns out. It is not legal in NY currently and the way the LOSAP laws are written someone cannot be receiving pay and credit towards LOSAP.)

I beleive you are correct, you cant be pay per call AND receive credits for losap. That just means you cant get both. that doesnt mean you cant have a pay per call system.

[ffp20 14]

(I should be interesting to see how this turns out. It is not legal in NY currently and the way the LOSAP laws are written someone cannot be receiving pay and credit towards LOSAP.)

I beleive you are correct, you cant be pay per call AND receive credits for losap. That just means you cant get both. that doesnt mean you cant have a pay per call system.

[mfc2257 464]

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm glad it's working out for you guys.

I'm no longer a member of that department so I'm not sure of the program's current success/status. It worked initially when I was there though.

[post4031 16]

Illegal for just fire districts or other entities as well?

As I understood it villages or cities can as they would be considered part time employees of that entity, Fire Districts or Fire Protection Districts can not. Also, villages and cities can pay stipends where as fire districts and protection districts can not according to the interpretation we got. I did hear of a district upstate that was doing paid-call but I couldn't verify it. This system does work well in other states. However, most that I have asked about require some type of actual time put on shifts to cover apparatus. It all depends on how the department sets it up.

I did attend a legislative investigative committee meeting about issues with volunteer departments with several members of the State Assembly, FASNY, OFPC and Local Officials. These issues were talked about at length along with others. One thing that was clear during that meeting once you mentioned paid-call or part time staff, the gentlemen representing FASNY were adamantly against it because it would ruin the image of the volunteer fireman.

They would rather obtain funding and have an advertisement campaign to create excitement and attract new members. Let me also say this, I am not anti-volunteer myself being a fourth generation volunteer and being part of the service for 23 years. However, I do feel there needs to be other options for a department because most do not have the resources for a full career staff.

Most members of a department these days need to have part time jobs in addition to full time jobs to make ends meet. We often lose quality members because of their personal committments and time constraints and their inability to put in the time required. If a member's part time job was with the fire department he/she would not only be taking care of their needs it would also fill the departments needs as well. A win win situation for both in my opinion. It may get the department further down the road per say and be cost effective.

It is a complicated issue that's for sure!!!

[post4031 16]

I am not sure about the legal status, but about 2 years ago I downloaded a list from NYS OFPC of the type of FD's in NYS and they listed x vol, x career and 3 (or) 5 paid on call depts.

I saw that as well and I inquired about that with the OFPC. I couldn't get a difinitive answer from them on it.

[post4031 16]

(I should be interesting to see how this turns out. It is not legal in NY currently and the way the LOSAP laws are written someone cannot be receiving pay and credit towards LOSAP.)

I beleive you are correct, you cant be pay per call AND receive credits for losap. That just means you cant get both. that doesnt mean you cant have a pay per call system.

You are correct, however a paid call system creates other legal conflicts when it comes to fire districts and protection districts. There are no provisions for it in the laws that govern these types of local governments.

[DCJPells 29]

When we inquired about it several years ago. NY has paid and volunteer status. A paid on call would have to get minimum wage and do 229hours /CPAT entry training and 100 hours yearly training. This would include part time people as well.

[ffp20 14]

"A paid on call would have to get minimum wage and do 229hours /CPAT entry training and 100 hours yearly training. This would include part time people as well. "

The 229, 100 hrs, and CPAT comes when the dept has 6 or more full time firefighters. We were quote the appropriate gml and such and it was pretty clear.

[ffp20 14]

(One thing that was clear during that meeting once you mentioned paid-call or part time staff, the gentlemen representing FASNY were adamantly against it because it would ruin the image of the volunteer fireman.)

Thats great to hear a person from FASNY is all for enhancing protection of a community, not protecting their kingdom (sarcasm). They're not unlike other fifedom special interest groups defending their turf at all costs (iafc, iaff, nvfc, and a host of others). IMO FASNY does some good things, but is not in touch with the realities of todays volunteer fire service. The year is 2010, not 1965.

The notion of spending more money on recruitment drives and other "enticements" is laughable in todays society. Our experiences told us they largely dont work. We did all kinds of stuff as "recruitment tools", but in the end it didnt do squat. Yes, we got people in the door, and yes a few of them lasted long enough to get training and experience under their belts. But again, in the end, five years later, they're gone. Most simply dont stay around long enough to get the training and experience to be good, competent interior firefighters. It was nice getting some fire police members and exterior people, but what we need are those who can do firefighting.

LOSAP for us anyway, did nothing to bolster the numbers of those who can fight fire. What is did was to keep our older fire police guys around. While thats helpful, that doesnt put out fire our disentangle victims from wrecks. The LOSAP is now costing our district big bucks and we still cant rigs off the floor.

[DCJPells 29]

Here is how it was explained. You would have to pay minimum wage, thus you bewcm an emplyee. GML 209-w also states"and every person who is appointed on a temporary basis or for a probationary term or on other than a permanent basis as a fire fighter of any county, city, town, village or fire district shall forfeit his position as such unless he previously has satisfactorily completed, or within the time prescribed by regulations promulgated by the governor pursuant to section one hundred fifty-nine-d of the executive law, satisfactorily completes, a fire basic training program for temporary or probationary fire fighters and is awarded a certificate by the state fire administrator attesting thereto." which covers all but permenant appointed FF's. thus this covers the 229 and CPAT as per the R@R of NYS.

Seems somewhat clear.

[gamewell45 258]

You are correct, however a paid call system creates other legal conflicts when it comes to fire districts and protection districts. There are no provisions for it in the laws that govern these types of local governments.

You are correct.

Fortunately laws can be changed. If there was enough groundswell, I think the laws could be changed to remove legal conflicts when it comes to fire districts and fire protection districts.

[post4031 16]

(One thing that was clear during that meeting once you mentioned paid-call or part time staff, the gentlemen representing FASNY were adamantly against it because it would ruin the image of the volunteer fireman.)

Thats great to hear a person from FASNY is all for enhancing protection of a community, not protecting their kingdom (sarcasm). They're not unlike other fifedom special interest groups defending their turf at all costs (iafc, iaff, nvfc, and a host of others). IMO FASNY does some good things, but is not in touch with the realities of todays volunteer fire service. The year is 2010, not 1965.

The notion of spending more money on recruitment drives and other "enticements" is laughable in todays society. Our experiences told us they largely dont work. We did all kinds of stuff as "recruitment tools", but in the end it didnt do squat. Yes, we got people in the door, and yes a few of them lasted long enough to get training and experience under their belts. But again, in the end, five years later, they're gone. Most simply dont stay around long enough to get the training and experience to be good, competent interior firefighters. It was nice getting some fire police members and exterior people, but what we need are those who can do firefighting.

LOSAP for us anyway, did nothing to bolster the numbers of those who can fight fire. What is did was to keep our older fire police guys around. While thats helpful, that doesnt put out fire our disentangle victims from wrecks. The LOSAP is now costing our district big bucks and we still cant rigs off the floor.

Definitely agree on FASNY and other groups, matter a fact that was my response to them. We has some of the same experience with LOSAP but fortunately a lot us don't care about LOSAP and do what we need to do points or not.

[post4031 16]

You are correct.

Fortunately laws can be changed. If there was enough groundswell, I think the laws could be changed to remove legal conflicts when it comes to fire districts and fire protection districts.

I don't see it happening anytime soon....especially with the way Albany runs... I would think there would need to be some concessions on the career training requirements that Chief Pells has mentioned. I would think it would need to be more uniform and there would have to be some credit for training already completed such as state courses that would be credited towards the 229 hours.

Or there would need to be a part time academy that could be completed, kind of like law enforcement.

[Bnechis 3,961]

(One thing that was clear during that meeting once you mentioned paid-call or part time staff, the gentlemen representing FASNY were adamantly against it because it would ruin the image of the volunteer fireman.) IMO FASNY does some good things, but is not in touch with the realities of todays volunteer fire service. The year is 2010, not 1965.

The notion of spending more money on recruitment drives and other "enticements" is laughable in todays society. Our experiences told us they largely dont work. We did all kinds of stuff as "recruitment tools", but in the end it didnt do squat.

While FASNY thinks this will "hurt" volunteers, if the volunteer departments do not find ways to cover the calls, in the long run, they will have to hire career staff.

Fortunately laws can be changed. If there was enough groundswell, I think the laws could be changed to remove legal conflicts when it comes to fire districts and fire protection districts.

Since this would be legislation for the volunteer fire service and the primary lobbying group (FASNY) is against it, its highly unlikely you will see this change.

[Danger 160]

Or there would need to be a part time academy that could be completed, kind of like law enforcement.

Technically the 229 can be gained through outreach classes

[ffp20 14]

(Here is how it was explained. You would have to pay minimum wage, thus you bewcm an emplyee. GML 209-w also states"and every person who is appointed on a temporary basis or for a probationary term or on other than a permanent basis as a fire fighter of any county, city, town, village or fire district shall forfeit his position as such unless he previously has satisfactorily completed, or within the time prescribed by regulations promulgated by the governor pursuant to section one hundred fifty-nine-d of the executive law, satisfactorily completes, a fire basic training program for temporary or probationary fire fighters and is awarded a certificate by the state fire administrator attesting thereto." which covers all but permenant appointed FF's. thus this covers the 229 and CPAT as per the R@R of NYS.)

Heres what we were told from GML 209-W section 6 and interpreted as 5 full time firefighters:

6. The provisions of this section shall not apply to appointments made

by any county, city, town, village or fire district which employs five

or fewer fire fighters

[post4031 16]

Technically the 229 can be gained through outreach classes

That would be a plus, I did not know that could be done. Do you know how one would be able to credit outreach courses towards the 229? If so, please share or feel free to PM the details to me.

Thanks!!!