When the FD can get out for a call.

[OLDGUY19 6]

I heard some place in the northeast useing a Flying squad in a central location. 1 Officer/3FF 24/7/365 responding to something like 5 small communities.Their rig was small.but versitile. I don't know if it was county based or not. don't know how it could work here. Something to think about.

[COMMANDCHIEF 4]

If this is becoming all to common on ALL types of calls then it is time for CHANGE!

The answer is a career staff!

The boys up there may not like the answer but they are the ones not showing up soooooooo oh well.

Before changing over to a PAID system. Explore merging districts or a duel response system. It works all over the country for volunteer, combination departments.

[Doc 11]

I heard some place in the northeast useing a Flying squad in a central location. 1 Officer/3FF 24/7/365 responding to something like 5 small communities.Their rig was small.but versitile. I don't know if it was county based or not. don't know how it could work here. Something to think about.

I haven't heard about what you're talking about here but I know that in Broome County, NY, a few departments have done something similar. The way it works is this: on a rotational basis each of the participating fire districts offers a rig for staffing by a duty crew made up of members from the participating fire districts. These firefighters respond with that engine to any call in the participating fire districts. Right now there are two such engines (designated Engine 98 and 99). By rotating the location and engine used, it evenly distributes the risks to the fire districts, and pools the manpower of a few departments.

Here's a web page that describes the program.

http://www.unioncenterfire.com/engine_98.htm

I think this is an excellent interim measure to the daytime call issue. I'm not sure how well it works, but it is one interesting idea.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Doc

[RushTheBus 10]

A lot of good discussion here. I think that there are valid parts to all sides of this argument, but I just don't see an across the board merger in Westchester happening any time soon. Each department is going to have to figure out what works best for them to get Fire and EMS crews out in a timely manner. If it means supplementing your volunteers with some paid personnel, then maybe that's what has to be done.

efd184 - out of curiosity, you seem very against volunteers in your posts on this board. Did you get your start as a volunteer ever or did you go right into the paid service?

[efd184 59]

A lot of good discussion here. I think that there are valid parts to all sides of this argument, but I just don't see an across the board merger in Westchester happening any time soon. Each department is going to have to figure out what works best for them to get Fire and EMS crews out in a timely manner. If it means supplementing your volunteers with some paid personnel, then maybe that's what has to be done.

efd184 - out of curiosity, you seem very against volunteers in your posts on this board. Did you get your start as a volunteer ever or did you go right into the paid service?

I started as vol. only to get were i am today but what does that have to do with the subject at hand? You dont like the fact that i promote the career side of firefightering? If you dont then that is to bad! Look at the original question on the subject it has to do with a dept. who has vol. members not showing up for a call. Thats not good if you live in that house that might be on fire or are in need of medical help. My answer was clear and remains the same. IF YOU CANT GET VOLS. THEN GET PROFESSIONALS WHO WILL BE THERE ALL THE TIME. REPEAT ALL THE TIME. Im not going to candy coat so i dont hurt someones feelings.

EFD 184

[TL2L31 8]

If the tax payers want reliable fire and ems service that is the direction they would need to go if the situation does not get better.

I dont think hiring paid staff is the answer. The taxes are high enough in Putnam .They should do what some departments in westchester do already, dual department response.

[RescueKujo 130]

A lot of good discussion here. I think that there are valid parts to all sides of this argument, but I just don't see an across the board merger in Westchester happening any time soon. Each department is going to have to figure out what works best for them to get Fire and EMS crews out in a timely manner. If it means supplementing your volunteers with some paid personnel, then maybe that's what has to be done.

Rush,

Our County Board of Supervisors is attempting to combine some of the smaller career and volunteer departments here in San Diego County, but are running into headstrong Chiefs and Boards that don't want to give up their little kingdom. What ever happened to greater needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or one??

[Guest ab2se]

IF YOU CANT GET VOLS. THEN GET PROFESSIONALS WHO WILL BE THERE ALL THE TIME. REPEAT ALL THE TIME. Im not going to candy coat so i dont hurt someones feelings.

EFD 184

The only problem is the municipality will not hire enough to properly staff. So then we'll have 2 career on rig at the scene. And of course we won't call a volly dept for M/A so we'll have to wait for M/A from a career Dept further away. SHORT STAFFING is short staffing Career or Volly.

[TimesUp 148]

I appreciate the responses. Being in Putnam, I feel that 10 minutes before requesting mutual aid is too long. This is part of why I started the thread. I was also curious as to who sets these protocols, etc.

No one has really touched the liability side of my question. I imagine that the fire departments have some sort of duty to act (for lack of a better term) and can be held liable for a failure to respond but I could be wrong.

The solutions thread has been up before. I personally feel a combination of consolidation and paying personnel may be the way to go but it is going to take someone with some real gumption to begin those wheels in motion. There is a whole lot of duplication of equipment up here and no one to roll it.

Not only is there a delay of 10 minutes before the call for mutual aid goes out. But also the time it takes for the mutual aid dept. to assemble and respond. maybe the call for mutual aid has to go out sooner.

[RushTheBus 10]

Rescue - Who knows??? But people are going to have to give in sooner or later, or somebody is going to get hurt. Just as AB was saying, having only 2 people on a rig arriving at a fire is dangerous, and its a problem that plagues Westchester and many other counties. I'd rather have an engine take 2 to 5 extra minutes to arrive if it was fully staffed (and fully staffed is not a driver and a passenger). But I guess thats a whole different argument.

[Guest]

There are a lot of costs to fire protection and staffing is probably amongst the lower costs. Think of the cost of hydrants, fire and building code enforcement, insurance premiums (commercial and residential), apparatus, equipment, training, etc. The world is changing and it is the obligation of both town government and departments to adapt. Look at what your town's ISO rating is. Then figure out what the savings to taxpayers would be if you could significantly improve that rating. We did this excercise in our town when we wanted to add career staff and found that the nominal cost to taxpayers in terms of increasing our budget was far outweighed by the reduction in the cost of the homeowners' insurance premiums. Improved fire protection lowers insurance costs.

The answer is not quite as simple as hiring career staff. It is that, it is constantly recruiting volunteers, and it is educating governmental officials and taxpayers. It is automatic aid agreements on the first alarm instead of mutual aid. It is being creative on service delivery. It is monetary incentives for volunteers. It is housing for volunteers. It is getting grants. And, the list goes on.

Nobody wants higher taxes, but maybe nominally increasing taxes in order to achieve a larger offset that actually puts more money back into taxpayer pockets is an acceptable solution.

[moggie6 54]

At some point in time someone will have to answer the call. We can all agree on that. How we answer that call on the other hand is a whole other question. If you are not getting out for alarms or your not properly manning the equipment for alarms then a day will come when you will have to answer for that. People will ask questions, legal action will be taken, and someone will be held responsible. Tax issues do play a part in this process but if we were truely worried about saving money we would not have the duplication of services that are so easy to point out in each county in the lower hudson valley. (i.e. apparatus)

Each county can afford to have some sort of combination department with career personel on the pay rolls. If it means a response then it's worth the money. For me this issue isn't about making jobs for my brother and sister firefighters. It's about being responsible. Do you know how hard it is to sit and listen to fire departments go second, third, and fourth dispatch when you know if someone had been there they could have responded?

[Ging599 13]

First, I appreciate those who responded and gave me answers to my original post.

Second, the post went off course, but that is a good thing.

I haven't seen one person post that the system isn't broken and everything is peachy. So my next question is, is it really going to take someone dying to begin to address this?

Is this the commissioner's responsibility, the Chief's or the municipality's? Who is it going to take to make changes?

I am not asking this hypothetically, who is it really going to be that needs to take the bull by the horns.

I am not a career FF, I've been a volley for about 17 years and proud of that, BUT the system is broken in so many ways. We have manning problems (the trucks don't get out in a timely manner or manned properly), duplication of services (does every FD really need a rescue truck or that addition pumper especially if we can't get them out), budgetary issues (I won't even go there), departments that do not work well together (do we even need three departments in one town), etc. etc.

We all know the issues but who is willing to address them?

[Bnechis 3,961]

There are a lot of costs to fire protection and staffing is probably amongst the lower costs. Think of the cost of hydrants, fire and building code enforcement, insurance premiums (commercial and residential), apparatus, equipment, training, etc. The world is changing and it is the obligation of both town government and departments to adapt. Look at what your town's ISO rating is. Then figure out what the savings to taxpayers would be if you could significantly improve that rating. We did this excercise in our town when we wanted to add career staff and found that the nominal cost to taxpayers in terms of increasing our budget was far outweighed by the reduction in the cost of the homeowners' insurance premiums. Improved fire protection lowers insurance costs.

The answer is not quite as simple as hiring career staff. It is that, it is constantly recruiting volunteers, and it is educating governmental officials and taxpayers. It is automatic aid agreements on the first alarm instead of mutual aid. It is being creative on service delivery. It is monetary incentives for volunteers. It is housing for volunteers. It is getting grants. And, the list goes on.

Nobody wants higher taxes, but maybe nominally increasing taxes in order to achieve a larger offset that actually puts more money back into taxpayer pockets is an acceptable solution.

Well said chief

[moggie6 54]

I am

[Bnechis 3,961]

On the FD side of it, can a department be held liable for property loss or injury as a result of them not being able to respond in a timely manner?

Of course they can. State law requires local government (City's, Villages, Fire Districts, etc.) have to provide fire protection. Thus they have a "duty to act". If the chief, commissioners, or gov officials are aware that a problem exists, then they have liability for not providing the service.

[DES630 10]

What I have never been able to figure out is you can have the Chief, Asst, Chief, 2nd Asst Chief, 3 Lt's sign on responding to a fire call but no one can go get the Engine or Ladder. Why is that? If the Chief is responding why can't the other officers go get the rigs knowing they are on the 2nd set of tones and nothing else is responding except for a few Chief's cars?

So now you combine a 2 or 3 departments to consolidate now you will any where from 6 to 9 officers signing on responding but still no Engines or Trucks.

Edited January 22, 2008 by DES630

[TL2L31 8]

In a vol dept, Lts should be driving a rig, not responding to a scene. Too many people have car designations. Only the 2 or 3 chiefs, depending on how many the dept has, should have car radios. Just my 2 cents.

[16fire5 693]

Lots of great posts here from posters who seem to have the right intentions= what's right for the citizens we serve. Not whats right for the union or viability of the volunteer organization. I once again will take issue with posters who believe there is a call volume that is necessary to have a paid staff. Paid staff should be based on need and yes ability to pay. But with that I argue that the ability to pay is present in many places and wasted spending could be diverted to where its needed. I also in my experience find no benifit to a LOSAP and other incentives used to entice or retain volunteers. Has it really increased departments' ability to get rigs out or has it become a nice gesture to those who served us in the past. I agree that its probably a combination of those suggestions made that is the answer. Consolidation, combinations departments, and shared staffing are worth exploring. What benifit do the taxpayers get from multimillion dollar firehouses with a half dozzen rigs costing hundreds of thousands of dollars that are unable to respond?

[helicopper 1,050]

Okay I must apologize and revise my previous post a tiny bit(hopefully my mix up is a testament to how little we have to use this protocol:

In Putnam mutual aid for a fire department with no response goes like this:

Initial Dispatch

Wait 4 minutes

Second Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 4 minutes

Third Dispatch (if no response)

Wait 2 minutes

If still no response from base, automatic mutual aid; if the base does sign on but does not have the manpower to respond, the base is asked if they want more tones or mutual aid.

So this cuts it down to 10 minutes.

I know this isn't up to you and my comments are not directed at you...

Why on earth would anyone wait 10 minutes to find out if a department is even ABLE to respond to a call? I remember EMS tones going out again and again long before Putnam County 911 was formed so this is not a new problem. If I remember Barry's comments about ISO and such, the recommendation was 12 FF / 1 IC on scene in 8 minutes or less. In this model, they're not even responding in eight minutes or less. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing fire. I think it's absurd to poll for a patrol to respond to a law enforcement job too.

What happens if Johnny or Roy gets to the firehouse and mans the base radio? Does the clock stop? What if they still can't get enough people to roll the apparatus? How much time elapses before someone takes the bull by the horn and asks if they're going or not?

What I have never been able to figure out is you can have the Chief, Asst, Chief, 2nd Asst Chief, 3 Lt's sign on responding to a fire call but no one can go get the Engine or Ladder. Why is that? If the Chief is responding why can't the other officers go get the rigs knowing they are on the 2nd set of tones and nothing else is responding except for a few Chief's cars?

So now you combine a 2 or 3 departments to consolidate now you will any where from 6 to 9 officers signing on responding but still no Engines or Trucks.

Great point! Once a chief signs on, why can't at least some of the other officers make sure the apparatus is getting out? They can drive can't they?

And don't misunderstand me - if it can be done with volunteers GREAT. If it can't something needs to be done and that may or may not be hiring career personnel. I think it's just as ridiculous for a single FF to be responding on the engine with absolutely no idea who may or may not be coming to help him.

[PC415 1]

Well I have to agree that 10 minutes is way to long myself. However this is what the departments in the county (Putnam) want. It wasn't just some number that the head of B.E.S. came out with, This was a number that the Fire Advisory Board / Chiefs Association came up with. Maybe it's time that they re-visit this issue and reduce the time. The ambulances only get 5 minutes in Putnam before mutual aid or whatever, why can't the FD's get about the same time?

[Bnechis 3,961]

If I remember Barry's comments about ISO and such, the recommendation was 12 FF / 1 IC on scene in 8 minutes or less. In this model, they're not even responding in eight minutes or less.

Chris you are combining a couple of different posts of mine.

ISO does not have a response time, they have a distance (1.5 mile for engines, 2.5 for ladders/service co.) and assume that your times are based on the distance.

ISO's 12ff / 1 IC is the minimum # of responders you need "ON DUTY" in the firehouse. In VFD's without inhouse duty crews you need 36 ff's / 1 IC. ISO appears to be assuming that this response delay is going to require 3x the numbers (maybe to deal with the bedroom fire that 10 min later is the whole house).

The 8 min resposnse is based on NFPA 1710 which uses the time/temperature curve to determine when flashover is likely to occur (which also means the fire has spread beyond the area of origin). It is also the ALS response time requirement for both 1710 and the AHA for cardiac emergencies.

1710 requires 15 to 16 career firefighters (at a minimum) be on scene in 8 minutes. The 3 additional ff's that 1710 wants over ISO is for FAST and FF accountability.

NFPA 1720 is the vollie response standard and it just says you need to respond with enough people to get the job done. With no time standard. So 10 min with no response is considered ok by those that created the standard.

HOW CAN THIS BE? We have 2 Different standards....career in 8 min and vol in whenever they show up?

[ex-commish 490]

What I have never been able to figure out is you can have the Chief, Asst, Chief, 2nd Asst Chief, 3 Lt's sign on responding to a fire call but no one can go get the Engine or Ladder. Why is that? If the Chief is responding why can't the other officers go get the rigs knowing they are on the 2nd set of tones and nothing else is responding except for a few Chief's cars?

So now you combine a 2 or 3 departments to consolidate now you will any where from 6 to 9 officers signing on responding but still no Engines or Trucks.

Very good point. When I was a chief I responded to the station first to see if the rigs needed to get out. There were plenty of times I ended up driving either the big rigs or the ambulance or also being the emt. There were arguments that I was supposed to go to the scene and play boss but what good is playing boss when there are no rigs there to get the job done? A white hat and portable will not put a fire out.

[firemoose827 324]

What I have never been able to figure out is you can have the Chief, Asst, Chief, 2nd Asst Chief, 3 Lt's sign on responding to a fire call but no one can go get the Engine or Ladder. Why is that? If the Chief is responding why can't the other officers go get the rigs knowing they are on the 2nd set of tones and nothing else is responding except for a few Chief's cars?

So now you combine a 2 or 3 departments to consolidate now you will any where from 6 to 9 officers signing on responding but still no Engines or Trucks.

Dont get me started...TOO LATE

Its all about the power trip. When you get a nice radio, and pretty red lights with a siren, and a different color coat and helmet, suddenly your transformed into a "Boss". People let it go to their heads and start barking orders at people even though they have no idea what they are talking about. Its the POWER thing. They all have to go to the scene so they can be IC and bark orders. I think the only ones that should be ALLOWED to go to the scene is the Chief Officers. I believe ALL line officers should go directly to the station, and NOT have a mobile radio in their cars. Even then, I think it should only be one chief, as soon as there is a chief officer enroute to the scene, the remaining chiefs should go to the station and drive trucks.

There are some fires in my county you will very well see 12-15 chiefs wandering around!! What for??!! The other thing that burns me is when one department calls another dept mutual aid for manpower...than you hear 3-4 of their chiefs go enroute with the manpower...WHY? Send a line officer with the manpower and they will take charge of the crews. You dont need 20 chiefs wandering around doing nothing when your screaming for engines or tankers that you cant get because there is no drivers, there is no call for that. Put a white coat on people and suddenly they think their only job is wandering around with a portable radio and point fingers and shout orders...WRONG.

I give credit to one of my chiefs though, when he was elected he stayed in his black turnouts and he still rides trucks and packs up and gets dirty. When hes needed to be IC he will step up and take the role, if there are other chiefs he packs up and fights fire and drives trucks. He does what is needed of him and his skills.

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris you are combining a couple of different posts of mine.

ISO does not have a response time, they have a distance (1.5 mile for engines, 2.5 for ladders/service co.) and assume that your times are based on the distance.

ISO's 12ff / 1 IC is the minimum # of responders you need "ON DUTY" in the firehouse. In VFD's without inhouse duty crews you need 36 ff's / 1 IC. ISO appears to be assuming that this response delay is going to require 3x the numbers (maybe to deal with the bedroom fire that 10 min later is the whole house).

The 8 min resposnse is based on NFPA 1710 which uses the time/temperature curve to determine when flashover is likely to occur (which also means the fire has spread beyond the area of origin). It is also the ALS response time requirement for both 1710 and the AHA for cardiac emergencies.

1710 requires 15 to 16 career firefighters (at a minimum) be on scene in 8 minutes. The 3 additional ff's that 1710 wants over ISO is for FAST and FF accountability.

NFPA 1720 is the vollie response standard and it just says you need to respond with enough people to get the job done. With no time standard. So 10 min with no response is considered ok by those that created the standard.

HOW CAN THIS BE? We have 2 Different standards....career in 8 min and vol in whenever they show up?

Thanks for the synopsis. I knew my recollection was fuzzy but was too lazy to actually go back and search for each post so I blended them together.

Be that as it may, it is patently absurd to have different standards. The fire doesn't care if you're paid/volunteer/combination or if you responded on a green truck or a red one (sorry, I know that's gonna start another debate about the colors of freakin' apparatus). The fire is going to destroy people's homes or businesses and do its best to kill you if you don't respect it. The more time you give it, the more of an adversary it's going to become. They may not have specified a time but they did specify a distance and you can pretty easily work out a time based on those distances - which are pretty short too - 1.5 miles for an engine, sheesh).

As for the 1/12, 1/36 standard. I think they're creating a depth to insure that the IC actually winds up with the 12 recommended when the call comes in. Three rostered people for every one position required for the job. That's much the same way that NDMS rosters disaster medical assistance teams. They recommend 3-4 people for each of the 35 (or so) positions required for deployment. The problem is we all know that volunteer agencies have two numbers - the number of "rostered" active members and the number of actual warm bodies with a pulse that show up when the tones go off. I've heard pretty scary numbers from some agencies, "oh we have 100 members - on paper but only 15 are really active". You know the BS.

I think it is time for some changes - waiting 10 minutes to see if an agency can respond is irresponsible.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks for the synopsis. I knew my recollection was fuzzy but was too lazy to actually go back and search for each post so I blended them together.

As for the 1/12, 1/36 standard. I think they're creating a depth to insure that the IC actually winds up with the 12 recommended when the call comes in. Three rostered people for every one position required for the job. That's much the same way that NDMS rosters disaster medical assistance teams. They recommend 3-4 people for each of the 35 (or so) positions required for deployment. The problem is we all know that volunteer agencies have two numbers - the number of "rostered" active members and the number of actual warm bodies with a pulse that show up when the tones go off. I've heard pretty scary numbers from some agencies, "oh we have 100 members - on paper but only 15 are really active". You know the BS.

No problem.

Its not 36 rostered. ISO requires 36 ff to actually respond on every fire unless you haved staffed stations. Then its 12.

Part of that is with a 1 min turnout time (staffed) the fire will not be as bad as with an 6, 10, 20...etc. minute turnout time.

ISO is saying that staffed houses are the way to go. ANd this is nothing new, they have been saying it for over 100 years.

[helicopper 1,050]

No problem.

Its not 36 rostered. ISO requires 36 ff to actually respond on every fire unless you haved staffed stations. Then its 12.

Part of that is with a 1 min turnout time (staffed) the fire will not be as bad as with an 6, 10, 20...etc. minute turnout time.

ISO is saying that staffed houses are the way to go. ANd this is nothing new, they have been saying it for over 100 years.

Wow, that's some perspective. I wonder how many FD's in the region are able to turn out 36 qualified FF's for a fire during a weekday? Or for that matter any time!

Thanks for the clarification.

[Ging599 13]

How many departments even have 36 truly active members that you can count on be it day or night?

How many departments would you need to mutual aid to cover the 36, and these are minimums we are talking about.

Chiefs that don't want to drive the rigs, minimal staffing, ten minutes until mutual aid is requested .. I need to check on my house insurance.

[TL2L31 8]

What about requiring municipal workers to be trained as ff to supplement the fd? Just a thought.

[efd184 59]

What about requiring municipal workers to be trained as ff to supplement the fd? Just a thought.

Which departments are you talking about?