To Ladder or Not to Ladder?

[chris498 31]

Curious to see what everyone thinks. There has been a lot of discussion in the forums about Tower vs. Ladder. Now I am asking, do you think every department should have an aerial truck of some form? :shock:

[Guest DG795]

Westchester County is EXTREMELY engine oriented....much of the truck work is done as an afterthought. And much of the truck work is done by unassigned engine crews, with the exception of dept's that run as separate companies. Does every dept need an aerial device/truck company?....in my opinion, no. but the dept's that dont should consider a structured automatic response with the closest truck co.

[HFD23 37]

does every one have to have a truck, no, should they yes in my opnion even if its a quint with a 75 foot stick,, its great to have the option or luxary of a aierls device rather then pull up to a job and need on and not have it and sit there like a idiot with no means of reachin a roof or some high point while waiting for a M/A truck, one must then conside what ladders would eb on your engine, would u carry only the standard 24 footer, or would u find room for a 35?

once again thats my opinion that every department should have a truck company

[x635 4,066]

Does every department/district need a aerial truck? No

Does every department/district need a vehicle that carries a full complement of truck company equipment and ground ladders? Yes.

(What happened to the good-old quad?)

Does every department/district need an aerial truck within a reasonable distance? Yes.

Truck companies are a neccesity at every structural fire. That doesn't mean they need to have a big stick on top. They do need to have ground ladders, truck company tools, AND truck company training.

Also, I feel alot of people are forgetting the art of ground ladders, and are relying too much on aerials.

[Guest DFFD227]

I personaly think that having a truck company is essential. It's a very important job. Whether it's search and rescue, checking extension and over hauling. There really is no major high rise buildings in Westchester County, except in White Plains, and Yonkers, and maybe even Elmsford. I dont think you will "DIE" if you don't have a ladder company, but IMO it's essential.

[Guest]

no i do not believe that every dept needs to have a truck.some area's of the county probablly have too many trucks for that area and could do better by having automatic aid agrreement so truck co's as well as spend that money better off else where. it doesnn't make sence in having 2 trucks with in 1.5 miles of each other.

those departments that do have a truck need to make them true truck componys . train as a truck co and make sure the right tools are there for the job

[Guest DFFD227]

Do you think that Mohegan has too many ladders for there district? seeing that there really is no major high rise buildings?

[x635 4,066]

Do you think that Mohegan has too many ladders for there district? seeing that there really is no major high rise buildings?

I dont think Mohegan has too many Ladders, considering the size of their district and how they user their Ladders (First Due Structural Piece) From what I understand, the main reason for the purchase of there latest ladder (35) was due to the growing size of the district that warrented a 100' ladder. Ladders aren't just for hi-rise buildings. Mohegan has many resedential, commercial, and industrial occupancies that do warrant a ladder. For example, Jefferson Valley Mall, "Cardiac Village", Hudson Valley Hospital, Cortlandt Town Center, Lakeland High School, many condo complexes, taxpayers, etc. Mohegan only has two real ladders that also can act as engines.....Ladder 10, a 75 ft, and Ladder 35, a 100'.....Engine 250 is a 50' Telesquirt, which is mainly useful for elevated master streams.

[Guest DFFD227]

Yes, I guess your right. Is there any village/town in Westchester County that does not have a ladder, and relies on other departments to supply them with the ladder to a major call?

[x635 4,066]

No Ladders: Croton Falls, Katonah,Vista, South Salem,Bedford,Armonk, Pound Ridge- MA Truck Co from 57 Truck ,Banksville, Brewster,Ridgefiled New Canaan

No Ladder: Archville, Pocantico Hills- MA Is Any of the Mount Pleasant area Tower Ladders

No Ladder-Buchanan-MA from Montrose,Verplank, Peekskill, Or Croton

[Guest DFFD227]

How does this system work for any members of these departments? Do you think its easier without a truck? or do you wish you had one?

[chris498 31]

In Katonah we do not have a ladder truck.... we have target zones in our district where we get automatic MA from Tower 57 if any structural call is reported, this includes commercial alarms. Target zones include the downtown area, schools, shopping centers, and the medical group. This agreement has worked very well in my opinion, BHFD has had a ladder co. for the last 60+ yrs. Additionally they are about two miles away from Katonah's downtown area. But, I have been a big proponent of KFD having a ladder for many years.... I do not think that we need a tower ladder, nor do I want one..... but a 75ft. Straight stick might lend itself to our operations quite nicely. Additionally it might lend it's services to town of Bedford Fire Services as well....... but what do I know?!

[57truck 1]

I defiently agree with "Chris498", The automatic mutual aid agreement for 57truck with Katonah works greats. With 57truck as the only ladder in the Town Of Bedford, this policy is great b/c anytime Katonah gets toned out for a commercial alarm/or anything structural related BH's tones are stacked with Katonah. Also with the tower being automatic dual response, it gives the other town additional manpower at the scene. Also, 57truck is 1st due truck at the Fox Lane High School and Middle School campus, which is in the Bedford Fire District.

[CG206 29]

The need for 2 ladders and the Squirt (Eng. 250) in Mohegan is exactly as X635 pointed out. Other buildings include 8 other schools in Lakeland School District and 2 more in Hen Hud School District. Also, Treetop's, Cortlandt, and Holy Comforter Nursing Homes, plus the Phoenix Academy (Big cross tower visible from Taconic Pkwy). Yeshiva and Volunteers of America complexes and multiple car dealerships along Rt. 202 and many big name stores along Rt 6. Many strip malls and a few thousand homes also are spread out over 42 Sq mile district. Industrial sites are located on Croton Ave/Furnace Dock Rd, Arlo La and Navajo St.

The response for a Commercial Alarm or a Structure Fire is as follows:

Ladder 35 out of HQ on Rt 6/Lexington Ave with one of the following:

1) L-10 of Jefferson Valley Sta. (Lee Blvd near JV Mall)

2)Eng. 250 of Furnace Woods Sta. (Croton Ave near Panas HS)

3)Eng. 257 of Hollowbrook Sta. (Oregon Rd/Westbrook Dr)

Location of call depends on which rig/sub-station will actually respond and what rig will be 1st due.

Another point is when a ladder is called somewhere for mutual aid, this leaves the other ladder to cover our own territory.

[Remember585 815]

I think we are all missing the big picture here. Just because your Department may not have an Aerial Rig doesn't mean "Truck Company Work" can be ignored. Furthermore, the Departments out there with those HUGE aerials that don't exactly fit everywhere, this is for you too.

The Incident Commander is ultimately responsible to put out the fire, and at the same time keep his/her men safe, minimize the loss of property and eliminate the risk to life, when possible. This is achieved by well coordinated fire attack procedures. The basic tasks of Primary and Secondary Searches, Extinguishment and confinement, overhaul and salvage, and ventillation and forcible entry must always be done. (Unless of course, conditions don't warrant it.)

A good example is my Department, we run with 3 engines, a quint, rescue and tanker, as well as 2 ambulances. Many of the homes in our district are up those long, windy driveways that are so narrow you actually have to butter the sides of your bicycle to fit. Obviously we can't fit TL44 in their, so assignments are given to the Engine companies. If say, E118 is first in, they drop the supply line and the 2nd due engine picks it up and feeds them. The crew of 2nd due and / or 3rd due can be used as an attack team, vent team, search - whatever the IC decides. Just because the TL can't get there, doesn't mean the jobs of the Truck Company aren't completed.

Another point - if you don't have an aerial or your aerial is never on scene as quick as the engines - consider cross-training your people. In this day and age, manpower is at a minimum during the daytime, and getting every rig to an alarm may not happen. Make sure that your people know what to do if assigned a Truck Company's jobs. In our Dept. we tend to drill it in everyone's mind that the possibility is always there where not every rig won't respond promptly. We train on all aspects of fireground ops on a regular basis. One of the biggest things we work on is learning the rigs of the other companies, you never know what you're gonna get.

Hopefully, some of you agree with me.

Until next time....

[chris498 31]

Thank you Remember585! You have made some really great points in your latest submission on this topic. Yes, because a department does not own a ladder truck, does not mean that they can't perform ladder operation at a fire call. Again the issue goes back to training, and what and how much of it you and our department are willing to do...... Doing more with less.... how is that for a modernday FD concept!!! Thank you Remember585!

[Hooks057 0]

Yes, it is all in GOOD TRIANING!!! And a dept. with out a Truck Co. this training is hard to come by. If you don’t do it on a regular basis, you are not going to be good at it and that leads to bad training. It needs to be second nature on the fire ground just like stretching a line. It should not an afterthought. How many times have you seen after a fire is knocked down two guys go to the roof and cut a hole (a 2X2 at that). For what purpose I ask??? Oops! Maybe they didn’t need to cut that hole since the fire was on the first floor with no extension to the second. Bottom line, it was an afterthought. And bad training.

If you have a Truck coming in on the initial assignment you will not fail.

If you are going to be the Jack-of-All-Trades (Eng. Truck, Rescue) then you will be the Master of NONE!!