What If?: Large Plane Down In Hudson River In Westchester?

[hudson144 150]

Whenever I teach the ARFF class I mention to the students,"Someday a large frame aircraft will belly land in the Hudson", can we here handle the situation? Are the resources available? This time of the year there are not many boats available and yes right now the water taxi from Rockland to Westchester is not running because of ice. What can be done if it does happen? This would be a multi agency operation! Whats your thoughts?

*Just to mention: The a/c was heading north and did turn around over the Bronx flying south to where he landed,not too far from the Westchester/Bronx line.

Edited January 16, 2009 by hudson144

[Monty 35]

Not as easily - but undoubtedly YES!!

Obviously on a much smaller scale but there have been multi-county responses that worked pretty well (from my understanding). Yes people would be 'stranded' longer, EMS facilities would be stretched but it would all come together on the day. Might have to think outside the box, use of ice rescue teams, long lines, military / coast guard resources.

Don't get me wrong - it would certainly be one heck of a challenge for the AHJ ....

[robert benz 344]

thank god it landed where it did!!! let it land in long island sound this time of year and it would have been a totaly different outcome.

[pasobuff 38]

thank god it landed where it did!!! let it land in long island sound this time of year and it would have been a totaly different outcome.

From all the pictures and video it also looked like there was no wind....no chop to catch a wing tip. I'm listening to the audio of FDNY right now.......interesting!

[tdc202 0]

One source we have in our backyards is West point and Stewart ANG base. I'm sure they have some kind of plan to deal with something like this.

[hudson144 150]

West point/Stewart ang Base- I'm not really sure about WP (choppers) but I know that the assigned aircraft @ stewart airguard base would not be of any help. From reviewing the reanactment of the flight- I was wondering if the pilot saw the ice flow north of him which made him turn south?

Stewart - NYSP,DEP PD and at times transient choppers are there.(choppers)

Edited January 16, 2009 by hudson144

[helicopper 1,050]

Whenever I teach the ARFF class I mention to the students,"Someday a large frame aircraft will belly land in the Hudson", can we here handle the situation? Are the resources available? This time of the year there are not many boats available and yes right now the water taxi from Rockland to Westchester is not running because of ice. What can be done if it does happen? This would be a multi agency operation! Whats your thoughts?

*Just to mention: The a/c was heading north and did turn around over the Bronx flying south to where he landed,not too far from the Westchester/Bronx line.

Let's see...

can we here handle the situation?

Nobody in Westchester has the level of experience that the command staffs of the NYPD or FDNY have so we would have a more difficult time handling it but yes I think we could.

Are the resources available?

Depends on what resources you're referring to. If you mean passenger ferries that can scoop up the victims and hold them in a climate controlled environment and bring them to shore 30-40-50 at a time no. If you mean personnel and apparatus, of course. Unfortunately the majority of that is useless in this situation.

This time of the year there are not many boats available and yes right now the water taxi from Rockland to Westchester is not running because of ice.

If the ice on the river prevents boats from getting out of the marinas (if they're even in the water) there will be a definite problem. It might require the response of the ferries from NYC - is that something any of our people would think of? Not before last night probably. Even in the summer there may be a lot of boats available but none are large enough to deal with the numbers of people this incident generated.

Also the coordination of many more small boats will be more of a challenge then was the coordination of ferry boats by ferry captains yesterday.

What can be done if it does happen?

We should start preplanning RIGHT NOW for what we would do if this happened. We can't afford to wait until it does to figure out who's going to go where, who's going to bring what, who's going to do what, etc. The pre-plan wouldn't have to be just for a plane ditching. It could be used for any large river response. And the same thing should be done on the Sound too! Once the preplan is done there should be tabletop exercises REGULARLY to keep the plan fresh in everyones mind and explore contingencies, options, other issues, and workout the invariable turf issues, ego issues, and communications issues.

The other problem would be who's the lead agency? If this happened north of the Tappan Zee Bridge you'd probably have every police chief, fire chief, and Indian chief on the Hudson (both Rockland and Westchester) at their shore establishing command - that's not a criticism just a simple observation. Which one IS command? Which one is going to get the resources that they're all asking for? Can the dispatch centers even handle that kind of volume of radio traffic?

This would be a multi agency operation!

This would be a mult-COUNTY multi-agency operation. Unless there's a preplan, there would undoubtedly be 2-4 different responses from the different counties involved plus others. We're not well trained, equipped, or experienced in dealing with something of that size and complexity.

One source we have in our backyards is West point and Stewart ANG base. I'm sure they have some kind of plan to deal with something like this.

Do they? Do you have their number? Is their plan going to help Rockland or Westchester? We can't simply say someone else has a plan for this so we'll call them. Stewart probably does have a plan for incidents on their airport (as all airports do); West Point may have a plan for things related to their operations at the river but I don't think either has a plan for an Airbus 320 ditching in the Hudson. Neither has the resources that we would need to respond either. Stewart's ANG base has no helicopters and West Point may have a few training helicopters but I don't believe that they're equipped with hoists or other rescue gear. I think we will have to first rely on local resources.

From reviewing the reanactment of the flight- I was wondering if the pilot saw the ice flow north of him which made him turn south?

I don't think so. I think they were in the left turn to etiher return to LGA or make it to Newark or Teterboro airports. When they realized they weren't going to make it the river became the best (only?) option to them.

Whats your thoughts?

It's your fault, you asked!

As for the winds - Teterboro and LGA at about the time of the accident. In a nutshell, relatively light out of the north/northwest. So he had a tailwind which is the last thing you want when you're trying to land - another reason the pilot and co-pilot are to be commended for this landing!

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[Dondestro 9]

One resource you would need to keep in mind are there a a few tug boats all the way up the hudson untill about the bear mt bridge that i know of that keep work boats and tug boats in the water year round. I know of three in the verplank area that are in the water right now and i would believe be able to drive through ice, slow but steady. Tugboat are also fairly low to the waterline making ti easy to transfer people.

[hudson144 150]

Lol as always Chris thanks for the reply- Chris- in the event of a large incident like this who watches over the airspace that is in close proximity to the incident. Police,coast guard,military,news choppers buzzing the area like a bee hive? Almost like a air space IC?

The incident this past yr at Con Hook Island- smaller incident with I am sure some confusion, has anything been revised with plans on the HR? You are right that a major plan needs to be in place.The WC Airport does have a plan but what about away from the airfield? No better example that 15 Jan 09 !

Edited January 16, 2009 by hudson144

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Stewart's ANG base has no helicopters and West Point may have a few training helicopters but I don't believe that they're equipped with hoists or other rescue gear.

I was quite certain SWF (ANG Base) did in fact have helicopters. At least at one point they did, as I had seen them with my own eyes. Maybe since then (it HAS been quite a few years) they have since moved out of there, but I know for a fact I had seen some in a hanger, and some sitting outside.

And NYSP Lifeguard flies out of there, don't they?

[hudson144 150]

Stew- no on the military side,the terminal side nysp, dep, (military)- periodic.

[tdc202 0]

I also rememember not to long ago a rescue off of Breakneck MT with a chopper that I thought came from Stewart. I also could be wrong.

[JFLYNN 681]

Whenever I teach the ARFF class I mention to the students,"Someday a large frame aircraft will belly land in the Hudson", can we here handle the situation? Are the resources available? This time of the year there are not many boats available and yes right now the water taxi from Rockland to Westchester is not running because of ice. What can be done if it does happen? This would be a multi agency operation! Whats your thoughts?

*Just to mention: The a/c was heading north and did turn around over the Bronx flying south to where he landed,not too far from the Westchester/Bronx line.

Does anyone remember the Cessna going down off the Yonkers shoreline in the winter a few years back? I was a Captain working on the Rescue that day. We watched the two guys through binoculars doing the backstroke in the middle of the Hudson and praying that FDNY / NYPD Coast Guard or somebody would arrive before they went under. It took a good 15 minutes after the plane went in before a NYPD chopper and a Coast Guard chopper with hoists saved the day. About another 20-30 minutes later the cavalry showed up- Multi-agencies boats from all over the place (and a jet ski, but that's a story for another day) but it was all over by then.

So, it is my belief that, had this occured a few miles North of where it did, it is very likely that there would have been fatalities among any elderly, very young, or those with medical problems who were on board the aircraft due to hypothermia or drowning.

Minutes mattered yesterday and, assuming this happened off the Yonkers shoreline yesterday, it would have been many more minutes, maybe even 30-45 minutes more before enough resources arrived to remove all the passengers and crew.

[M' Ave 1,466]

There needs to be some mention of a non-emergency agency that CERTAINLY deserves credit for the swift removal of passengers from the A320. That's the NY Waterways Ferries. They were lined up and nosed in to that plane pullling people off in droves.

They happened to be in the area and already running, so they were able to respond quickly. I think the point here is, even if civilian agencies (like NY Waterway) don't self deploy as they did yesterday, there are people and business's with the ability to help in an emergency such as this. Tug boats have firefighting monitors and pumps, there are ferries and other commercial vessels with services to offer.

Without the help of several agencies, this would have been a much longer operation. NYC has a tremedous amount of water and these bodies of water are only served by 3 year round FDNY Marine Co's. and the NYPD covers the water from the Yonkers/Bronx boarder on the Hudson, through the East River and NY Harbor all the way to the tip of the Rockaway's with only 7 or 8 full time Harbor Launches (I believe I have that number correct, but help me out please).

The water is thin on resources, look at what's out there to help you.

Edited January 16, 2009 by M' Ave

[helicopper 1,050]

I also rememember not to long ago a rescue off of Breakneck MT with a chopper that I thought came from Stewart. I also could be wrong.

The State Police have hoist equipped helicopters based at Stewart but the National Guard stuff is all fixed wing - except of course for transients passing through. NYC DEP PD also has a helicopter based there but it doesn't have a hoist.

in the event of a large incident like this who watches over the airspace that is in close proximity to the incident. Police,coast guard,military,news choppers buzzing the area like a bee hive? Almost like a air space IC?

Initially at least they will self coordinate - it's done every day and usually works pretty well. The night of the boat accident you reference there were three of us above and we coordinated our locations and movements so we knew who was doing what to whom. The media helicopters are very good about staying out of our way to allow us to do our job while they do theirs. Later a Temporary Flight Restriction can be established if necessary but that's only for big, long-term incidents.

Does anyone remember the Cessna going down off the Yonkers shoreline in the winter a few years back? I was a Captain working on the Rescue that day. We watched the two guys through binoculars doing the backstroke in the middle of the Hudson and praying that FDNY / NYPD Coast Guard or somebody would arrive before they went under. It took a good 15 minutes after the plane went in before a NYPD chopper and a Coast Guard chopper with hoists saved the day. About another 20-30 minutes later the cavalry showed up- Multi-agencies boats from all over the place (and a jet ski, but that's a story for another day) but it was all over by then.

And it was just dumb luck that we got the Coast Guard helicopter. It was in the area coincidentally on training. The nearest Coast Guard helicopters are in Atlantic City and Cape Cod; that's why the NYPD has so many assets for air/sea rescue work.

[ny10570 745]

Also remember this was a best case scenario. 150 passengers is relatively small commercial jet. What if it had been 350 passengers or maybe the airbus monster with a potential capacity of 800 passengers? If the conditions had been any worse or the landing any less perfect how long would that plane have stayed afloat? I know nothing about the safety features built in for this type of landing, but short a wing or an engine would it still float level? Does an airbus float better than a boeing? The wind current, and tide were heading out to sea at the time of this incident but what if it had been different? It definitely would have created more surface chop and the tide coming in with the wind pushing the plane down river could very easily have helped sink the plane faster.

News reports have NYPD aviation divers pulling two from the water and they were on scene within 10 minutes of the plane being reported in the water. I'm pretty sure county doesn't have the luxury of divers on board and I'm not sure how comfortable Chris would be leaving the bird up there while he took a swim. Realistically how soon could Westchester get divers in the water just north of the Tappanzee Bridge (I figure thats about the middle of Westchester's portion) if this were to happen tomorrow?

Edited January 16, 2009 by ny10570

[gadgetguy 1]

Guys,

just to let you know there are multiple commercial flights flying over the Tappan Zee bridge area every day leaving from Westchester County Airport like the one I 've been on every week going to Atlanta on Airtran.

Here's an example of of an ice rescue boat the West Lake fire dept has in Erie,PA. It's too small to handle the patient load of a a commercial airliner but it could make some difference when dealing with ice in the river till larger boats arrive and is something that can be used when your normal fireboats are put away for the winter

http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl...2200360/-1/NEWS

Also remember this was a best case scenario. 150 passengers is relatively small commercial jet. What if it had been 350 passengers or maybe the airbus monster with a potential capacity of 800 passengers? If the conditions had been any worse or the landing any less perfect how long would that plane have stayed afloat? I know nothing about the safety features built in for this type of landing, but short a wing or an engine would it still float level? Does an airbus float better than a boeing? The wind current, and tide were heading out to sea at the time of this incident but what if it had been different? It definitely would have created more surface chop and the tide coming in with the wind pushing the plane down river could very easily have helped sink the plane faster.

News reports have NYPD aviation divers pulling two from the water and they were on scene within 10 minutes of the plane being reported in the water. I'm pretty sure county doesn't have the luxury of divers on board and I'm not sure how comfortable Chris would be leaving the bird up there while he took a swim. Realistically how soon could Westchester get divers in the water just north of the Tappanzee Bridge (I figure thats about the middle of Westchester's portion) if this were to happen tomorrow?

[hudson144 150]

From being out on the Hudson many hrs too include night from March-nov I have been amazed at the air traffic. WC airport- 1000 flts/day if my memory is correct not to mention Laguardia,JFK,Stewart etc. The numbers are there!

[ny10570 745]

Its not just the flights over the Hudson or tappanzee. Its every flight in and out of the tristate. The busiest airspace in the country.

[EFFD4091-MLSS emt 13]

And NYSP Lifeguard flies out of there, don't they?

Yes Nate NYSP Lifeguard does fly out of Stewart... They have 2 ships there I believe and lets not forget Albany Med is where LifeNet also keeps a bird.

[NWFDMedic 58]

Yes Nate NYSP Lifeguard does fly out of Stewart... They have 2 ships there I believe and lets not forget Albany Med is where LifeNet also keeps a bird.

Helicopters are useless unless they are rescue helicopters. LifeNet and MedFlight might be options for getting patients that have reached shore to an appropriate facility, but they do not have rescue capability. Rescuing 150 passengers with Lifeguard is going to be an all day process at best. For a smaller scale incident, Lifeguard and maybe NorthStar and SouthStar (I don't know their exact capabilities, but I'm pretty sure they are rescue-capable) would be options. Neither is that far away as the crow flies and mitigating this incident would take plenty of time to get them here and they could be useful.

Relying on helicopters as your escape plan is very risky though. All you need is a rainy day, and you better have a plan B.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Yes Nate NYSP Lifeguard does fly out of Stewart... They have 2 ships there I believe and lets not forget Albany Med is where LifeNet also keeps a bird.

Helicopters are useless unless they are rescue helicopters. LifeNet and MedFlight might be options for getting patients that have reached shore to an appropriate facility, but they do not have rescue capability. Rescuing 150 passengers with Lifeguard is going to be an all day process at best. For a smaller scale incident, Lifeguard and maybe NorthStar and SouthStar (I don't know their exact capabilities, but I'm pretty sure they are rescue-capable) would be options. Neither is that far away as the crow flies and mitigating this incident would take plenty of time to get them here and they could be useful.

Relying on helicopters as your escape plan is very risky though. All you need is a rainy day, and you better have a plan B.

Don't the NYSP helicopters have a winch for removals? i mean, yes, granted, its not for large volume removals, but in the event of a serious medical/traumatic issue. Look at the pod directly above the door on the outside of the helicopter.

Photo Credit to Bill Johnson (photounit)

[NWFDMedic 58]

Helicopters are useless unless they are rescue helicopters. LifeNet and MedFlight might be options for getting patients that have reached shore to an appropriate facility, but they do not have rescue capability. Rescuing 150 passengers with Lifeguard is going to be an all day process at best. For a smaller scale incident, Lifeguard and maybe NorthStar and SouthStar (I don't know their exact capabilities, but I'm pretty sure they are rescue-capable) would be options. Neither is that far away as the crow flies and mitigating this incident would take plenty of time to get them here and they could be useful.

Relying on helicopters as your escape plan is very risky though. All you need is a rainy day, and you better have a plan B.

Don't the NYSP helicopters have a winch for removals? i mean, yes, granted, its not for large volume removals, but in the event of a serious medical/traumatic issue. Look at the pod directly above the door on the outside of the helicopter.

Photo Credit to Bill Johnson (photounit)

Yes, the NYSP helicopters do, but you're talking a long and drawn out process for 150 passengers. The LifeNet (StatFlight) helicopters do not. Also be aware that in many situations, the NYSP helicopter must be outfitted for either rescue or medevac, not both.

Edited January 16, 2009 by NWFDMedic

[texastom791 31]

Doesn't the NYSP helicopter only run like 9-5 monday through friday ?

[tdc202 0]

Anyone have an Idea what's available boat wise from Rockland County?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Yes, the NYSP helicopters do, but you're talking a long and drawn out process for 150 passengers. The LifeNet (StatFlight) helicopters do not. Also be aware that in many situations, the NYSP helicopter must be outfitted for either rescue or medevac, not both.

True, but in any event, anyone of a serious nature, can be evac-ed out (rescue), and transported, could they not?

Doesn't the NYSP helicopter only run like 9-5 monday through friday ?

I don't see why they would be limited to those hours. Crimes/emergencies do not only occur 9-5. I do not know 100% though, and am interested myself, in the answer to this!

[mfc2257 464]

I hate to break anyone's bubble who thinks that if this had happened further north that it could be handled by the agencies between the GWB and TZB or the TZB and the BMB. One NY Waterway vessel took 50+ passengers off that plane or roughly 1/3 of the load. Had they not been there, even in NYC with NYPD/FDNY/Park Police/Coast Guard and any other agencies that assisted, this would have had a different outcome. I'm not saying that it wouldn't have been successful, but it would have been different trying to get 150 people onto the smaller NYPD & FDNY Boats.

Now back to everything from the Bronx to the north where all those smaller emergency craft are 10-15-20-30 mintues out.... There simply aren't the number of vessels available to effect this type of rescue outside of the harbor area. That is reality. Chief Flynn even admitted that Yonkers couldn't get to a bunch of guys in a Cessna not too long ago.

Realistic expectations will help to realistically preplan this type of event if it did happen in Westchester/Rockland. About the only thing that comes to mind would be the ability to have one swift vessel available run multiple auxiliary rapid deployment rafts to the scene that can temporarily get folks off the plane or other disabled vehicle in question until other resources arrive.... Realistically... 20-30 mintues later to provide sustainable aid. Other than that, I'm not sure that these folks, even with a preplan are going to get help any faster north of the GWB.

[Piranha174 37]

If this incident did occur in Westchester it would have presented a unique challenge. Using the Hudson as an example, how many marine assets are in the water and would be able to respond immediatly- None. It would have taken a minimum of a half hour to trailer boats and launch same and that's not taking into consideration that the launching ramps are free of ice. Given the temperature of yesterday Air-20, River-32 that would give someone about 10 minutes in the water before hypothermia took over. How many of the Westchester public safety agencies marine assets that would respond have enclosed cabins and have heat-I can think of 3.

Military or Coast Guard response. You would get the same exact response as yesterday, it would just take longer. USCG Sector NY covers all the way up the Hudson and is based in Staten Island. The closest USCG Air Station is Atlantic City. So that would leave all Air operations up to WCPD and NYSP.

I believe we would have gotten the same response as the small plane that went down off of Yonkers a few years ago. And all of us relied heavily upon the NYPD for assistance.

[helicopper 1,050]

The New York State Police aircraft are hoist equipped as are the NYPD and Westchester County PD. Suffolk County, Nassau County, and the Connecticut SP have hoists if you reach out to them. I don't believe that NJ SP has a hoist. Beyond that you're outta luck - the medevac ships (Lifestar, etc.) are just that medevac ships.

With the exception of the NYPD (Bell 412) all the hoists are a single person proposition. That's just not going to work for 150 people. The Westchester County PD can deploy small rafts (two of them) but again that's not going to help 150 people; it might have been good for the Cessna in Yonkers though.

The State Police Aviation Unit is staffed more than 9-5 but I don't know exactly what they work. With the exception of the NYPD, I'm not aware of any 24 hour coverage by aviation.

Relying on helicopters as your escape plan is very risky though. All you need is a rainy day, and you better have a plan B.

That's a great point. Also consider the time it will take to hoist people - figure 3 minutes per person under optimal conditions (which they'll never be) - that's 7 1/2 hours of hoisting. You'll need MUCH more than just helicopters.

Realistic expectations will help to realistically preplan this type of event if it did happen in Westchester/Rockland.

True, true, true!!!

Let's keep track now too - we have the Airbus yesterday, the Cessna in Yonkers. and the Cirrus off Haverstraw Bay in the summer of 2005 (?). That's THREE aircraft in the river in just 3+ years and one of them was a biggie. Think we ought to plan more?

[ny10570 745]

Chris if you do start hoisting, what is the risk of the wash pushing people off the wing?