"You Can Cancel Fire"

[x635 4,066]

If you work in a busy EMS system with FD first reponse, chances are that you've beaten FD to the call and transmitted "You can cancel fire".

I'm wondering if any departments track these statistics for use in Priority Dispatching QA/QI??

[helicopper 1,050]

I was wondering how many agencies actually accept the cancellation?

[RescueKujo 130]

In our contract cities here in San Diego County, our medics cancel the fire guys all the time. Unfortunately, while EMD is used by 1 of the dispatch agencies, the chiefs have ruled that everything is still a medic level response (we will not get into the debate on this please). The engine captain has the option once onscene to downgrade the response if appropriate. But I don't bel;ieve anyone is keeping stats to look at the EMD picture. And as always, remember EMD is only as good as the caller as they will give whatever answers they want....

[x129K 1,393]

If an ambulance says that on Poughkeepsie Fire - they just wasted thier breath and my air time.

[IzzyEng4 427]

From my experiences in CT it depends on the departments. For instance, if a fire department is a first responder or may provide paramedic service, depending on the department, the ambulance service may cancel FD's response to the medical. Certain departments though have it in their protocol that they have to obtain patient information because of a town ordinance or department policy. This is the case for medical calls only.

As for fire or rescue calls (ie MVAs, confined space, hazmat) the fire departments in my area cannot be canceled by a separate EMS agency nor PD.

[ny10570 745]

In NYC since fire is only trained to CFR, on the majority of calls once the first ambulance gets on scene fire is automatically cancelled if they are still enroute. The exception is Cardiac Arrest, Choke, etc where there is a high likelihood of the extra manpower being needed fire must be on scene to be cancelled.

[citystation1848 15]

It doesn't happen too much in Dutchess unless its a situation where they've gone third dispatch for an ambulance and it hasn't called out, then they turn the call over to the commercial agency.

I know some departments like New Hamburg, East Fishkill and Beekman have some sort of apparatus that responds with the ambulance, right off the bat. Often enough ill hear East Fishkill 39-98 and Mobile Life 268 responding or Beekman 34-61 & 67 responding. I dont hear alot of services cancel fire, as they respond simultaneously.

[EFFD4091-MLSS emt 13]

Well in East Fishkill the only piece of fire equip that responds is a utility... 39-62, 39-63, or 39-64, Our ambulance 39-71 or 39-72 and if it is ALS then whatever ambulance MLSS has that is the closest. On a few occasions the Rescues will respond. 39-51, or 39-52. Our ambulance will cxl the other incoming equip, and very rare that MLSS will cxl any incoming equip. Depends on the sit. bout to clear, an RMA or unattended.

[NYMedic37 22]

If an ambulance says that on Poughkeepsie Fire - they just wasted thier breath and my air time.

Why is this a waste of "thier breath and my air time"? What is wrong with cancelling resources that are not needed and who said that this was your air time? Do you exclusively own the air? A pretty arrogent statement.

[x129K 1,393]

Why is this a waste of "thier breath and my air time"? What is wrong with cancelling resources that are not needed and who said that this was your air time? Do you exclusively own the air? A pretty arrogent statement.

A commercial ambulance does not have the authority to cancel a fire department unit's response. They should all be aware of this, and if they attempt, it is uneccesary transmission.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Our policy is the ambulance must have made patient contact and determined that additional personnel would not be beneficial to the patient. Also they may not cancel on MVA's since we respond for EMS as well as scene safety and environmental.

[Mark Z 18]

A commercial ambulance does not have the authority to cancel a fire department unit's response. They should all be aware of this, and if they attempt, it is uneccesary transmission.

What about New York State Police?

Edited February 24, 2009 by Mark Z

[Goose 188]

I dunno, 129, when i worked the city i cancelled PFD on a few occasions in which i happened to beat them. I never got any grief about it...

[firemoose827 324]

A commercial ambulance does not have the authority to cancel a fire department unit's response. They should all be aware of this, and if they attempt, it is uneccesary transmission.

129, I think you just need to re-phrase your replies and add more than just one line. After all, this is a social forum for firefighters and Police and EMS to talk shop. When someone like you comes along and drops a cocky one liner like you did, it only serves to show the mentality of the poster. If you have something to say than say it, dont just add the one liners, which in case you failed to read in the forum rules is illegal, and be constructive and add something to the discussion.

In my honest opinion, if a qualified crew of EMS arrives on scene first, and they dont need lifting assistance or extra hands, than why should fire proceed?? Most fire dept agencies are only certified to First Responder level. Most EMS agencies are Advanced Life Support Certified, meaning there is at least one Paramedic or Critical Care Technician and one EMT. Im my agency we have a two person crew and seem to manage just fine on our own for 80% of the calls. We get our share of codes, and major accidents where we definitely need more help but thats what a good mutual aid agreement is for, and when needed, we call in the firefighters that are not busy and ask them to hold things, or help us by getting our equipment from the rig for us and we work very well together and never have any disagreements about who should have arrived first, or whos jurisdiction it is or territory wars...on the call its the patients needs only and everyone works towards that goal. If there are any problems they are dealt with quietly in a closed session meeting later on, off the scene, in a professional manner and 99% of the times are handled than and there.

I never understood the friction between agencies...Get over it, you know? Work together and help people, thats what we are here for, not to constantly bicker about who gets there first, who is in charge, etc etc. It should be clear enough; Fire dept handles fires, spills, and extrication etc etc, EMS does patient care and transport, Police does scene safety and traffic control and we all help each other out in the process whenever we can. The only thing we should be worried about is who can get there faster to render the treatment the patient needs, than work together to continue that treatment until the patient is at the appropriate facility.

In our county we do not track that kind of dispatch. For EMS its just an ambulance agency and the county EMS Coordinator that are dispatched to EMS calls. For MVA's both Fire and EMS are dispatched and only the fire Chief can cancel fire dept response. The EMS officer can not cancel fire, but can recommend to the responding Chief that all is well and no fire response is needed, than the Chief cancels fire. Conversely, if the fire chief arrives on scene and the patients are all saying they're fine and dont need EMS he/she can not cancel EMS response but advise on patient conditions and leave it to their discretion if they respond or not. Works fine and gets the job done.

Good topic.

[x129K 1,393]

What about New York State Police?

It is highly untypical for the NYSP to respond to an emergency in Poughkeepsie that the CPPD are not at, so that is not an issue.

I dunno, 129, when i worked the city i cancelled PFD on a few occasions in which i happened to beat them. I never got any grief about it...

Of course you are not going to get greif on the radio -- that would be highly unprofessional. It is our procedure to not cancel City Fire, even if the ambulance on scene attempts. This can be overridden by the officer on the engine if they see fit. When EMS attempts to cancel fire, I have to reply with "we are unable to do that, Engine #, copy direct?" That takes the burden off of us and onto the officer. Mind you there may only be 2 dispatchers working a busy 4 -12 tour and are tied up doing a myriad of other tasks, answering 911 and 7 digit phone calls, entering teletypes, answering over 7 radio channels, and the other assorted goodness that accompanies those busy times.

129, I think you just need to re-phrase your replies and add more than just one line. After all, this is a social forum for firefighters and Police and EMS to talk shop. When someone like you comes along and drops a cocky one liner like you did, it only serves to show the mentality of the poster. If you have something to say than say it, dont just add the one liners, which in case you failed to read in the forum rules is illegal, and be constructive and add something to the discussion.

Good topic.

My replies while "gruff", are to the point and accurate - if you see fit to scold or ban me for speaking the truth, so be it...bring it on. If you knew me you would know that is exactly how I would have said it to your face in conversation. It's not cockiness, but I apologize for not sugar coating it.....

Let me clear - there is absolutely zero "friction" between agencies in Poughkeepsie - we ALL work together quite well and have for years. I worked for Alamo for a LOOONG time - I know the routine.

FYI - not even the City Police can cancel FD.

QTIP

[helicopper 1,050]

It is highly untypical for the NYSP to respond to an emergency in Poughkeepsie that the CPPD are not at, so that is not an issue.

Of course you are not going to get greif on the radio -- that would be highly unprofessional. It is our procedure to not cancel City Fire, even if the ambulance on scene attempts. This can be overridden by the officer on the engine if they see fit. When EMS attempts to cancel fire, I have to reply with "we are unable to do that, Engine #, copy direct?" That takes the burden off of us and onto the officer. Mind you there may only be 2 dispatchers working a busy 4 -12 tour and are tied up doing a myriad of other tasks, answering 911 and 7 digit phone calls, entering teletypes, answering over 7 radio channels, and the other assorted goodness that accompanies those busy times.

My replies while "gruff", are to the point and accurate - if you see fit to scold or ban me for speaking the truth, so be it...bring it on. If you knew me you would know that is exactly how I would have said it to your face in conversation. It's not cockiness, but I apologize for not sugar coating it.....

Let me clear - there is absolutely zero "friction" between agencies in Poughkeepsie - we ALL work together quite well and have for years. I worked for Alamo for a LOOONG time - I know the routine.

FYI - not even the City Police can cancel FD.

QTIP

It is just ridiculous that when a competent professional is on the scene and determines that additional resources are not necessary they continue to respond. If the EMS unit is met at the door by a "patient", suitcase in hand, seeking transportation for symptoms times 10 days, there is no reason for fire apparatus to continue rushing there.

We're not talking about a fire alarm or report of a fire. We're talking about a medical emergency at which the FD is only supporting cast in this performance. The star of the show is EMS.

Why do we still have this discussion? Wouldn't you much rather go back to whatever it was you were doing instead of screaming across town unnecessarily?

As for being "scolded or banned", you're not going to be banned for stating your opinion. Moose's point was that you can explain yourself a little bit more clearly with more than a one liner and there's no need to be "gruff". As you say, we're all on the same team and there's simply no reason to be gruff or harsh in your replies. If you say it to someone they can ask you directly for clarification or debate the point with you. We don't have that luxury in this forum - at least not immediately - making it important for communications to be clear and without malice. That's all, you can lighten up, nobody's going to "bring it on".

[NWFDMedic 58]

As a commercial ambulance paramedic, I always see myself as playing in somebody else's sandbox. If I beat the FD to the scene and find out that I have a situation where further personnel would not be beneficial in any regard, I will advise the dispatch agency that we are under control at the scene and FD can disregard at their discretion. This allows the FD officer to make the decision and I don't step on any toes because I can't possibly remember every department's SOGs on cancellation when I could be in any of 100+ jursidictions. In areas where we respond with volunteer FD's, I see it as my effort to help get the firefighters back to their jobs, families, or beds a bit quicker.

[E1E2TL3 0]

As a commercial ambulance paramedic, I always see myself as playing in somebody else's sandbox. If I beat the FD to the scene and find out that I have a situation where further personnel would not be beneficial in any regard, I will advise the dispatch agency that we are under control at the scene and FD can disregard at their discretion. This allows the FD officer to make the decision and I don't step on any toes because I can't possibly remember every department's SOGs on cancellation when I could be in any of 100+ jursidictions. In areas where we respond with volunteer FD's, I see it as my effort to help get the firefighters back to their jobs, families, or beds a bit quicker.

Now that's using your head and great collaboration with other agencies.

[Guest FFNick]

If you work in a busy EMS system with FD first reponse, chances are that you've beaten FD to the call and transmitted "You can cancel fire".

I'm wondering if any departments track these statistics for use in Priority Dispatching QA/QI??

So does anyone track this?

Where I work, we do not track it, and if EMS cancels us, that is just fine. We get dispatched late sometimes, and if we continued in, we would find noone home, a locked residence and no EMS, because they are already at the hospital.

[FirNaTine 370]

10-8!

[helicopper 1,050]

Now that's using your head and great collaboration with other agencies.

And not a bit different than what anyone else is saying. It's always at the responding agency's discretion whether you say it or not unless you're a boss from that agency.

[NYMedic37 22]

It is highly untypical for the NYSP to respond to an emergency in Poughkeepsie that the CPPD are not at, so that is not an issue.

Of course you are not going to get greif on the radio -- that would be highly unprofessional. It is our procedure to not cancel City Fire, even if the ambulance on scene attempts. This can be overridden by the officer on the engine if they see fit. When EMS attempts to cancel fire, I have to reply with "we are unable to do that, Engine #, copy direct?" That takes the burden off of us and onto the officer. Mind you there may only be 2 dispatchers working a busy 4 -12 tour and are tied up doing a myriad of other tasks, answering 911 and 7 digit phone calls, entering teletypes, answering over 7 radio channels, and the other assorted goodness that accompanies those busy times.

My replies while "gruff", are to the point and accurate - if you see fit to scold or ban me for speaking the truth, so be it...bring it on. If you knew me you would know that is exactly how I would have said it to your face in conversation. It's not cockiness, but I apologize for not sugar coating it.....

Let me clear - there is absolutely zero "friction" between agencies in Poughkeepsie - we ALL work together quite well and have for years. I worked for Alamo for a LOOONG time - I know the routine.

FYI - not even the City Police can cancel FD.

QTIP

So because you are a municipal fire department responding on a medical emergency and the city contracted private ambulance medics (who are an agent of the city - under contract - deemed to be responsible) and have a higher level of medical training, can not be trusted to make a decesion to cancel FD when they are not needed? This sounds like politics as usual. Gotta' justify your job by responding on jobs where you're clearly not needed. What about if you get into an accident while enroute to a job where you are cancelled? Sounds like you are leaving yourself out there for a lawsuit.

[Guest]

It is just ridiculous that when a competent professional is on the scene and determines that additional resources are not necessary they continue to respond. If the EMS unit is met at the door by a "patient", suitcase in hand, seeking transportation for symptoms times 10 days, there is no reason for fire apparatus to continue rushing there.

We're not talking about a fire alarm or report of a fire. We're talking about a medical emergency at which the FD is only supporting cast in this performance. The star of the show is EMS.

Why do we still have this discussion? Wouldn't you much rather go back to whatever it was you were doing instead of screaming across town unnecessarily?

As for being "scolded or banned", you're not going to be banned for stating your opinion. Moose's point was that you can explain yourself a little bit more clearly with more than a one liner and there's no need to be "gruff". As you say, we're all on the same team and there's simply no reason to be gruff or harsh in your replies. If you say it to someone they can ask you directly for clarification or debate the point with you. We don't have that luxury in this forum - at least not immediately - making it important for communications to be clear and without malice. That's all, you can lighten up, nobody's going to "bring it on".

Why is fire dispatched to situations like this? Shouldn't EMD eliminate these types of calls?

[x129K 1,393]

So because you are a municipal fire department responding on a medical emergency and the city contracted private ambulance medics (who are an agent of the city - under contract - deemed to be responsible) and have a higher level of medical training, can not be trusted to make a decesion to cancel FD when they are not needed? This sounds like politics as usual. Gotta' justify your job by responding on jobs where you're clearly not needed. What about if you get into an accident while enroute to a job where you are cancelled? Sounds like you are leaving yourself out there for a lawsuit.

Not "you".....I am not a member of the PFD, however I do dispatch them.

I answered the question by stating our procedure for DISPATCHERS...just because you may not agree with it, don't make assumptions.

I would be curious to see how many other fire departments that contract commercial EMS have the same procedure?

Edited February 24, 2009 by x129K

[NYMedic37 22]

Not "you".....I am not a member of the PFD, however I do dispatch them.

I answered the question by stating our procedure for DISPATCHERS...just because you may not agree with it, don't make assumptions.

I would be curious to see how many other fire departments that contract commercial EMS have the same procedure?

Maybe it would be best if the fire department fought fires instead of justifying their jobs by going on EMS runs where they are not needed.

[Guest]

It's not so much the fire dept. justifying their existence by running EMS calls, but unfortunately these great politicians who don't understand they staffing it requires to fight a fire, so running EMS is a way to 'justify' the staffing. In a perfect world, we would have fire run fire, and EMS run EMS, but so is life.

[Patch6713 18]

If the EMS unit is met at the door by a "patient", suitcase in hand, seeking transportation for symptoms times 10 days, there is no reason for fire apparatus to continue rushing there.

Why is fire dispatched to situations like this? Shouldn't EMD eliminate these types of calls?

When I was doing my EMT ride time in the city we got a call of a diabetic emergency. The FD responded along with Alamo and since we were right around the corner we were on the scene within a minute or two. We went to the patient's door, and she came out with here suitcase and we were outside walking to the ambulance when the FD got there. So, the EMD is only as good as the information that the patient gives.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So because you are a municipal fire department responding on a medical emergency and the city contracted private ambulance medics (who are an agent of the city - under contract - deemed to be responsible) and have a higher level of medical training, can not be trusted to make a decesion to cancel FD when they are not needed? This sounds like politics as usual. Gotta' justify your job by responding on jobs where you're clearly not needed. What about if you get into an accident while enroute to a job where you are cancelled? Sounds like you are leaving yourself out there for a lawsuit.

We have City policies that say EMS can not cancel FD on MVA's even if EMS determines its an RMA, DOA or No patient. Because 1) they do not have the training or experience (yes some do) to evaluate non medical issues and in the past we had documented many cases where we were cancelled by EMS then redispatched to deal with incident clean up.

We also have a policy that EMS must make patient contact and determine that based on the patient evaluation we are not needed. This came from a number of cases that EMS determined we were not needed then calling us back for assistance.

We have no problem going 10-8 if we are not needed, but we respond for more than just medical and we expect that anyone who cancels us actually has determined that we are not needed, instead of because they want to be "nice" to FD or because they dont want FD on "Their" scene.

[Guest]

Maybe it would be best if the fire department fought fires instead of justifying their jobs by going on EMS runs where they are not needed.

Sorry but i believe FD is dispatched because they can get to scene quicker then EMS (maybe not all the time but most times). As far as cancelling if EMS can't cancel FD then it is a wasted transmission and a waste of time

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe it would be best if the fire department fought fires instead of justifying their jobs by going on EMS runs where they are not needed.

Maybe some FD's have been doing this for so long that they are not "justifying anything. They are doing it because the community expects it of them.

MY FD costs the average taxpayer $400 per year. If we eliminate the FD they will pay an additional $1,200 per year in insurance premiums. If we never go on another call we still save every property owner $800 per year. We are justified.

If they cut our budget by $1 million/year our insurance rating will go up 2 points, which will raise premiums by more than $12,000,000 per year. We are justified.

Maybe we respond to EMS because the community expects it, pays for it, and on some calls makes a major difference in the outcome for the patient.

BTW 80% of EMS in the U.S. is Fire based.....Could it be that fire is needed on more than just fire and your experience with fire is off because your FD - EMS experience is different than the majority of this country?