Where Should The ALS Flycar Position On Scene?

[x635 4,066]

Let's take, for example, a traffic collision with injuries on a high speed roadway.

A lot is talked about apparatus positioning, but where should the ALS Flycar be positioned? Ahead of the scene?

And what if they are the first to arrive?

Also note that most Flycars have their gear in the back of the truck, requiring them to go to the back of the vehicle for a second or two.

[PEMO3 523]

Scene and personnel safety is paramount on all operations. You are of no use to the patient if you become a second incident that requires resources. Most "fly cars" by nature of the vehicle are low profile vehicles and do require access to the vehicle rear for equipment. By this fact, utilizing such a vehicle to "block" the lane or scene is a risky gamble. In my personal opinion fly cars and ambulances should always be positioned in front of the MVA and out of the lane of travel when possible. This has been burned into my mind ever since having to attend the funeral of NYC EMS Specialist Christopher Prescott who was killed while loading a MVA patient into the back of his ambulance when a driver (drunk) drove through a flare pattern and hit him. My feeling is that the EMS apparatus should position as taught in EVOC, past the MVA, toward the shoulder and when possible take out the adjacent lane to allow room to operate safely.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Scene and personnel safety is paramount on all operations. You are of no use to the patient if you become a second incident that requires resources. Most "fly cars" by nature of the vehicle are low profile vehicles and do require access to the vehicle rear for equipment. By this fact, utilizing such a vehicle to "block" the lane or scene is a risky gamble. In my personal opinion fly cars and ambulances should always be positioned in front of the MVA and out of the lane of travel when possible. This has been burned into my mind ever since having to attend the funeral of NYC EMS Specialist Christopher Prescott who was killed while loading a MVA patient into the back of his ambulance when a driver (drunk) drove through a flare pattern and hit him. My feeling is that the EMS apparatus should position as taught in EVOC, past the MVA, toward the shoulder and when possible take out the adjacent lane to allow room to operate safely.

I agree except when you're first on scene. You gotta block it even if only temporarily until other vehicles arrive. To pull past the accident and leave all the lights flashing past the scene creates a great environment for a mishap.

[Jybehofd 85]

Usually when i am first on scene I block the scene with the car so i have protection while I am on by the patient's side. I usually don't take alot of time getting gloves and gear from the back of the truck. also depending if there is a guard rail near by i either point the car into traffic or towards the woods. I don't want the car to get hit ride the rail and hit me. I would rather have it get hit and go into traffic. If FD is on scene i try to go forward of the scene. if the ambulance is there i will block the rear doors to protect the crew and patient.

[Jybehofd 85]

usually the FD will park behind the fly car once they get on scene so now the car is protected

[sympathomedic 383]

All of the above observations are very accurate. If you are the only one there, then protect yourself. Since many of these SUV's are 4WD and have front hooks, I get the hell away from the pavement. If I sink, I sink. I can be towed back to the pavement easily enough. Save the road space for the ambulancees. Some flycars are designed to have good rear lighting with hatch door up or down. On others the hatch blocks the rear lights when up.

War story alert: On a job on the Taconic I alerted my partner to a possible danger from a secndary MVA. He replied that our flycar would protect us from any vehicle on a parkway-no trucks. A minute later a full-sized Bekins moving van 18 wheeler drove buy. Our jaws dropped.

[Morningjoe 162]

usually the FD will park behind the fly car once they get on scene so now the car is protected

That only happens when the FD is notified of an accident. Our PD basically refuses to call our fire department unless there is confirmed pin by their officers or a car fire. If we're lucky the call will get to 60-Control before it's sent to our PD, and then we'll be dispatched. We've recently (in the last year) had fatal accidents, and extremely high speed crashes with multiple wires and telephone poles down, and the PD doesn't even notify us that the road is closed, let alone call us.

And there is nothing we can do about it because our PD is a PSAP and also dispatches the ambulance. It's a real shame.

[Ga-Lin 86]

That only happens when the FD is notified of an accident. Our PD basically refuses to call our fire department unless there is confirmed pin by their officers or a car fire. If we're lucky the call will get to 60-Control before it's sent to our PD, and then we'll be dispatched. We've recently (in the last year) had fatal accidents, and extremely high speed crashes with multiple wires and telephone poles down, and the PD doesn't even notify us that the road is closed, let alone call us.

And there is nothing we can do about it because our PD is a PSAP and also dispatches the ambulance. It's a real shame.

[Ga-Lin 86]

That only happens when the FD is notified of an accident. Our PD basically refuses to call our fire department unless there is confirmed pin by their officers or a car fire. If we're lucky the call will get to 60-Control before it's sent to our PD, and then we'll be dispatched. We've recently (in the last year) had fatal accidents, and extremely high speed crashes with multiple wires and telephone poles down, and the PD doesn't even notify us that the road is closed, let alone call us.

And there is nothing we can do about it because our PD is a PSAP and also dispatches the ambulance. It's a real shame.

Couldn't your ambulance call you for "assistence'

[recoiloperated 16]

The flycar and especially the ambulance in my opinion should only stop in front of the accident whether they're first on scene or not. The only thing that will provide you effective physical protection from passing traffic is a 25-ton piece of fire apparatus. If one of these fools racing their luxury SUV down the Saw Mill rams the back of 37M1 the medic will have two trucks flying at them instead of one. That's all assuming they aren't hit while grabbing their bag out of the back hatch.

[Morningjoe 162]

Couldn't your ambulance call you for "assistence'

Ha, they're an entirely different story Edited October 11, 2013 by Morningjoe

[Ga-Lin 86]

Ha, they're an entirely different story

Morningjoe You edited your post before i got the time to respond. cCan you give me a hint where this "utopia" on earth is...... so I can avoid it

[Medic137 6]

Ha, they're an entirely different story

Perhaps your attitude toward the Ambulance Corps is why they only want you on scene when it is absolutely necessary.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Medic137

[Arbrow06 5]

The flycar and especially the ambulance in my opinion should only stop in front of the accident whether they're first on scene or not. The only thing that will provide you effective physical protection from passing traffic is a 25-ton piece of fire apparatus. If one of these fools racing their luxury SUV down the Saw Mill rams the back of 37M1 the medic will have two trucks flying at them instead of one. That's all assuming they aren't hit while grabbing their bag out of the back hatch.

Remember always uphill and upwind of any scene both for hazmat related issues also just get in front of the accident. If your ambulance goes out because its rammed thats one less resources to save a life. On the scene the ambulance and ALS fly car are paramount because theres plenty of RMPs and fire trucks can take a decent beating but a ambulance isn't made for it. I would 100% park ahead of the scene and set up safety precautions behind the scene and if a truck hits the car with the pin I would feel bad but my safety is paramount.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

The flycar and especially the ambulance in my opinion should only stop in front of the accident whether they're first on scene or not. The only thing that will provide you effective physical protection from passing traffic is a 25-ton piece of fire apparatus. If one of these fools racing their luxury SUV down the Saw Mill rams the back of 37M1 the medic will have two trucks flying at them instead of one. That's all assuming they aren't hit while grabbing their bag out of the back hatch.

That's your opinion. If there is no other emergency vehicle on scene you're giving yourself absolutely no protection by parking in front of the crash. If you leave all your lights flashing from the front, you're very likely making the scene harder to see too.

I'll say this about your points, there are more ways than one to control traffic than a fire truck (25 tons or not). A properly positioned police car or EMS vehicle will provide you with more protection than you think. It takes a tremendous amount of force to move a stopped vehicle; it takes even more force to move it a substantial distance. If you're parking close enough for the engine heat to keep you warm while you work you're too damn close. If you're parked 50-60 feet away (depending on the speed of the road, you're giving yourself a bigger cushion.

Finally, the positioning of the vehicle is only one part of the control of traffic. Flares, cones, momentarily stopping traffic to create a back-up that will slow traffic, fire police, real police, DOT/Highway crews, are all resources that haven't been mentioned in this thread.

[recoiloperated 16]

Those resources haven't been mentioned because that's not what the thread is about. If you have police, DOT, and the fire department there you'll be positioning where the scene commander tells you to; we're talking about what to do if you're alone. Flares are nice when you have time to set them up and enough of them in the rig to make a difference. I will also say that I've personally witnessed people driving through flare lines and into a scene at speed because "they live right down that road."

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Those resources haven't been mentioned because that's not what the thread is about. If you have police, DOT, and the fire department there you'll be positioning where the scene commander tells you to; we're talking about what to do if you're alone. Flares are nice when you have time to set them up and enough of them in the rig to make a difference. I will also say that I've personally witnessed people driving through flare lines and into a scene at speed because "they live right down that road."

You're right, those resources haven't been mentioned. That's why I did.

For single vehicle operations, you have to consider the barrier your vehicle establishes. That should be the first layer of defense.

If you don't have enough flares to close a lane or two to protect yourself, your agency is doing you a great disservice.

Closing a road with flares is also different than protecting a scene with them. Road closures with flares suck for exactly the reason you mentioned. People will drive through them if they are given a chance. An accident scene is a little bit different because there is something else in the lane ahead.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Remember always uphill and upwind of any scene both for hazmat related issues also just get in front of the accident.

2) On the scene the ambulance and ALS fly car are paramount because theres plenty of RMPs and fire trucks can take a decent beating but a ambulance isn't made for it.

3) I would 100% park ahead of the scene and set up safety precautions behind the scene and if a truck hits the car with the pin I would feel bad but my safety is paramount.

1) Great text book answer. I have rarely seen an incident (particularly on a limited access highway) that you can do both, and then also be out in front of the incident. Do you know which way the wind is going BEFORE you arrive on every scene? Its too late once you get there and every scene has the potential for hazmat. If your choice is upwind OR uphill which do you pick (and why)?

2) RPM's & Fire trucks are "built for it" I DO NOT THINK SO! Fire Trucks are heavier and will provide more protection, but that is not what they are designed for. THats why DOT has trucks with crash barriers built in.

3) If a truck hits the car, where are you? Your in or next to that car providing patient care,

[Jybehofd 85]

DOT is a great resource with alot of cones and barrels and other cool stuff to shut down a lane or road.. the only problem it takes time for a response at 9pm at night. Unless its snowing or something. But something useful are those HELP trucks they can shut down a lane pretty fast and there great they park at least 100 feet or so behind the accident so i can park in between them and the accident just to add that additional layer of protection and also some more cool flashy lights to slow it down... sometimes. lol

[Arbrow06 5]

My main concern is patient care so if we put the ambulance behind and it gets taken out because it does take LEOs and Fire a bit to respond sometimes and I wonder if there have been any studies about which is better when you are first on scene. Parking behind the scene to block or in front for the best visibility and safety, especially with the new move over rule in NYS. At the end of the day I just feel comfortable putting my "bubble" in danger of being destroyed so that I end up stranded.

What do people usually do when they park in front? Make someone spot?

[Jybehofd 85]

which is better the ambulance getting hit or you in the car holding c-spine and ejected out of the car when it gets hit? the move over law is nice and so is the texting law but people still text and drive... I want to go home and punch out with ten fingers and ten toes and everything in the same way it was before i punched in. just like working on ships in the merchant marine.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

 

My main concern is patient care so if we put the ambulance behind and it gets taken out because it does take LEOs and Fire a bit to respond sometimes and I wonder if there have been any studies about which is better when you are first on scene. Parking behind the scene to block or in front for the best visibility and safety, especially with the new move over rule in NYS. At the end of the day I just feel comfortable putting my "bubble" in danger of being destroyed so that I end up stranded.

What do people usually do when they park in front? Make someone spot?

 

Your concern also has to be YOUR safety. If you have no protection and someone crashes into the crash, you're done. I'd rather be without a vehicle, alive and well at the side of the road then crushed between vehicles.

How often is EMS there first anyway? Looking at most EMS response times, someone else is going to be there first.