biglew

Thanks again 2257,

I wasnt aware that the 28,000 was to stop the bleeding. I thought it was all that was owed.

Speaking about rants for another time, why don't we open up a post about duplication of apparatus in Westchester? LOL

I know some Westchester departments like to keep up with the Jones's, but at least they seem to have the money from some source to pay for their rigs. I would say I have seen some trophy seeker departments in my 25 years ( oops, that might be Long Island ) buffing, but by in large I

think depts try to by whats practical for their district, even if it is somewhat over the top sometimes.

Thanks mfc2257 for the additional info.

28K is not a large sum of money when we are talking about rigs. You say they rely on fund raisers to raise most of their revenue. The news report talks about bingo night not being as productive as it was.

What about a firemans carnival like some hudson valley depts do every year? What about a "Fill the Boot" campaign on weekend when the vollies can actively participate? What about a simple newspaper ad asking for community support?

I am not sure of the size of the district/jurisdiction that Riverdale Heights encompasses, but surely they would gain sympathy/ support from the people they serve. 4000 runs a year is not 400, surely there is a need for their department.

I remember photographing PG rigs in the 80's and 90's when I was writing for Fire Service Digest, and I remember the vollie/paid arguments back then. I could never understand the fact that we are supposed to watch each others back at a job, but some would rather find a spot to "stab" someone in the back they were supposed to watch. I hope this paid/vollie stuff is largely political and not personal or all of PG's residents will suffer.

It is ridiculous to get such little prison time, but I guess they looked at the facts that there were no witnesses, and the case was largely circumstantial.

I am not a lawyer, but if you read the statement from the accuseds' attorneys, it says that the arson pleas take no responsibility for the injuries or deaths. I thought if a death occurred during the commission of a felony, you get charged with the death. Am I off base here? Anybody know what the NJ law is on this matter?

I have read that original article at the top of the post and I am not even sure the FF had any warning lights on. ( not that he should be responding with the family, but I'll touch on that later.

The way I read it, and correct me if I missed something, it says he turned on his flashers, I took that to mean 4 way flashers/hazard lights, not warning lights. If thats what he had flashing at 85 mph, this guy is really lost. Now he radioed "dispatch" to tell the troper to back off, I am wondering why he has a radio if he wasnt a company officer. Did he call on a cellphone? Is the article acccurate?

Anyway, EVERYBODY knows you pull over for a officer who is attemtping to stop you. This rocket scientist, decides to keep going, (1st mistake) with his family in the car,(2nd miscue), tries to call off the cavalry( unssucessfully, 3rd lapse in judgement) and caused an accident by failing to stop after the trooper activated his lights and sirens.

Even if you wife was giving birth, or having a critical medical problem, you still stop, and it will only be 3 seconds before that trooper gets back in his cruiser and escorts you to the hospital. ( or helps you with ther medical problem)

This guy's actions are inexplicable and give everybody a bad reputation. I usually like to give members the benfit of the doubt, but not this time.

Good intentions, yes, bad plan to achieve desired goal.

Hopefully, the judge will not make hime turn 16 colors of red when he admonishes his behavior. Not sure what just punshment is, maybe the lesson is good enough. (Aside from having the bracelets put on you in front of your wife and kids)

Who knows the year that rescue was built? I believe that the C Series Mack chassis was built until 1967, then the CF cab came in 1968.( the prototype was built in late '67

Seth,

I wish I knew you were coming up this way today.

I live in Danbury, it would have been nice to have met up with you, and show you around town !! I see you found a lot of stuff yourself too! But did you get to the railway museum, or the military museum ?

Lew

I wish that people could agree to disagree without casting aspersions on other people who post here. We all have opinions, isnt that what these forums are all about? Sometimes there is no clear right and wrong, thats called subjectivity. Some depts clearly dont mind putting 15 members on a rig when they are driving to a Memorial day parade, others have more restrictive guidelines.

We shouldn't bash each other. We should opine our thoughts on a given topic with all the sincerity we have. Good ideas that are spread through the words of experience make people think or re-think positions on any given topic or issue.

I beleive there is a common thread to all who read and post, and that is the safety of the public, their colleagues, and the pride in the profession they are in. We might differ in opinions on how to achieve a certain goal, but we can all learn from listening to another voice.

I was on Long Island last weekend, and saw a few depts doing the "Santa" run. I did see one that had a more safety conscious idea- Santa was in the bucket of the depts new tower, ( mid mounted tower)

I hadnt seen that before, he was throwing out the candy, but the truck was going very slow; which I think is appropriate. ( LIGHTS AND AIR HORN - NO SIREN)

I dont think anyone wants to take away the fun, its just with the insurance regs and safety we are concerned. Its not about being a scrooge, I was buffing in the 70's when a member from 82 engine (FDNY) fell off the back step and got run over by 31 truck.

BACK STEPS ARE DANGEROUS, THATS WHY WE DONT RUN ON THEM ANYMORE. AND IM NOT BIG ON HAVING SANTA HANGING OUT ON TOP OF THE HOSE BED EITHER !!

I don't think it is a matter of resolving this topic, it should be a matter of learning about other departments, and adopting policies that your own dept feels best suit your needs.

IN MY OPINION, Volunteer ff's get a bad rap here. They are no more apt to be drinking a beer in their home watching football on Sunday than any other profession. But they have the responsibility to respond and be sober when they are acting in the course of their duty. If they feel they cannot meet that obligation on any given day, they should not respond. They come to the firehouse on their time to be closer in case of a call.

There are many inactive or social members of departments ( that do not respond to calls) that should be allowed to have a drink in the firehouse.

I photgraphed rigs for nearly 21 years, and ironically , whether it was NY, NJ, PA, CT, MD, VA, DE, (the states I did most of my work in) I was offered a beer in 80% of the vollie houses I visited. Having beer in the house should not be the issue, its members who are in a position to respond, where the controversy comes in.

I am not a drinker myself, but lets not confuse someone who appreicates a drink, with an alcoholic. Yes ff's have an obligation to protect the people they serve and their colleagues, but as some members have stated correctly, if you respond from your home and youve had a beer or 2 in the past couple hours, whats the difference if your had it at the firehouse? The answer is perception and political correctness. You should be able to tell if you can work safely in a stressful, dangerous environment. And if you can't, a company officer or chief should tell you. I have heard the stories too where drunk apparatus drivers have been in accidents , resulting in death to members, but that is not the norm.

Tons of cops go to have a drink after their shift, to unwind, but does that mean they cant carry their sidearm. WE ARE NOT TAKING ABOUT BEING DRUNK HERE. We are talking about the social use of alcohol.

As far as social events in the house, beer/liquor should be allowed. Like I said , if your on duty, or an active member, then there should be some restrictions in place. But the company barbeques, holiday dinners, funraisers, lets be realistic here. Its not that the issue cant be resolved, its that it cant be resolved practically speaking. Do you put a 1 beer limit on members in a firehouse? Not practical. This is not a SOBRIETY issue. No member who is not sober should even be allowed in the house.

Bottom line is this, Rules are fine, but with a volunteer organiztion, you might bite your nose to spite for face, meaning if you get too restrictive,

you'll be hearing that same tone go out 4 times for manpower, because no one will qualify to come to the house for the run. Otherwise make a paid county dept, and set your rules in stone. Last item to ponder, so if you have a paid member coming to work 6x9 tour, and he had a beer or 2 at 4:30 PM, how exactly are we going to know? Same thing, colleagues or officers will be able to tell.

Liquor in the vollie house should be OK, drunk firefighters should not be.

Happy holidays to all, and a safe new year.

Brian,

Great shots as usual.

The artice says that tankers hauled water from hydants on nearby streets.

Did they use LDH ( with a long stretch) at this job, or do they use portable tanks at the scene dumped from tankers?

grumpyff, nice shots....

Glad they finally got her out of there, sad to see her go, but she'll be nicer in a couple of years!!

In 2 years of being a member of this great site, I have never seen a topic closed for no apparent reason. ( mYabe I dont understand the policy)

I am referring to the topic about the Mount Vernon tower needing to be repaired and returned to fire duty as soon as possible.

The original writer of the original post asking for member input obviously took umbrage with my post ( I cant figure out why) but he did in his reply post. I was about to post a reply when I noticed that the topic was closed.

Maybe the board moderator can explain that to me as I personally hadnt seen that happen before.

Regardless, I would just like to say to JLoftus, the original writer, if you read my post in the thread, I complimented you on your efforts more than once to try to get your rig back into service. I just felt your dept should get involved.

I know you dont need me to tell you the rig is unsafe. I didnt say it was. ( read my post again) I said safety should of more import than staying warm. My attempt at humor obviously failed when I said warmth was nice but not a pre-reqresite.

In any case, I DO NOT think I offended you, but in the event I did, that was not my intent, and I apologize for any misunderstanding.

I do not know the dynamics of why it took so long for the rig to be fixed, I tried to give advice which is what this forum is about. Someone must have felt their toes being steped on by someone, because the topic was closed.

I hope and pray you get your rig back soon, and have complete safety with the '72 while you are using it. If posting your original post helped in any way to expedite the repair of your rig, then you have succeeded in your mission.

Happy Holidays

jloftus-

We have got to establish a few things here.

1) Its not a matter of having "JUICE" at Excelsior, if you guys brought your rig in for service 14 months ago, I would think ( and I dont know all the dynamics here) that is unacceptable.

Having said that, your FD needs to step up and call Seagrave or Excelsior and find out what the hold-up is. I think your rig is newer than a 1998, in any case, you should have a time frame told to your dept as to how long the needed repairs are estaimated to take.

I commend you wanting to take initiative here and get your rig back, but its really out of your hands. The best you can do is talk to your apparatus maintence guys and have them stay on top of the situation.

Why say something after 14 months, and not 3 months or 6 months.

There has got to be more to this than you know, no offense intended.

Is your 1972 Mack your dept spare ? Maybe your dept can get a loaner from Seagrave ? I wouldnt worry about staying warm, ( nice , but not a job pre-requisite) I'd worry about safety with a 35 year old rig.

I know your FD has had its share of internal problems, but this one they should be on top of. What happens if the '72 Mack goes down? One truck company in your FD isnt gonna cut it.

The great members of this forum who have lots of knowledge may be able to offer more advice, but I feel you should start within your dept, pronto.

Good Luck!!

I am so dismayed that the Mayor of New York City would publicly state his thoughts on this situation before a full investigation is completed. The police should have the benefit of the doubt every time, until such instance arises where malice or wrongdoing was committed with intent.

Then, you can punish an officer.

How must these 5 cops feel, they go into these sh--house clubs, working U/C, perceive that a crime is about to happen ( which they are trained to do), act on it, have their own lives in peril, control the outcome ( again they are trained for that), only to be told by the guy that signs their paycheck that it looks to the public that excessive force was used.

I thought Bloomberg was a standup guy, and smart enough to let the investigation take place before opening his mouth. Thats why morale is low and people dont want the job. Or they want it for the wrong reasons... do 20 years, never go for promotion, and get out with the right to carry a gun and badge for the rest of their life.

Bottom line is this, perception is not often reality. Ive been to too may funerals and watched too many kids cry. TAKE LEGITIMATE ACTION in these life or death circumstances (not over-reatcion) and even if the public questions it initally, the truth will prevail.

The mayors attempt at keeping the peace would have been honorable had he emphasized that we should npt be quick to make judgements.

If thats the way it happened, I'm not sure that a lesser form of discipline wouldn't have been more appropriate. Isnt there any progressive discipline system in place, where you are counselled or suspended first , depending on the severity of the infraction?

I'm not condoning their lack of consideration for the sick prisoner, I just think firing them is extreme. By the reports' own admission, their comments did not affect or delay the medical assistance they requested.

While they were unprofessional, I feel that Milford went overboard with the firings.

As with most valid issues, where there can be a legitmate difference of opinion, it is important to see the other side, not because you should sway your opinion, but because there may be something you hadn't thought of.

Here is my opinion on the subject. This "chief's ego" concept has got to be rectified. The best information comes from your eyes and ears and the scene. In many instances here in Westchester and the Hudson Valley, the chief will get to the scene before any first due companies. This has no real downside, other than the fact he's got to wait for water.

He can do the size up and call for the resources he needs.

If first arriving companies precede the arrival of the chief, and they have a worker, then in my humble opinion, the chief should concur with the company officer's request for additonal units until he arrives himself and makes his own determination. He can then downgrade the assignment if he feels the incident can be handled with the manpower on scene already.

As far as calling in during a chiefs response to a scene, I FEEL HE SHOULD NEVER, reduce an assignment or hold off on a request by an officer on scene. The training, expertise ,and ability to size up what he has should not be questioned during a chiefs response. There is no positive reason for this.

Dispatchers should have the latitude, like they do in the FDNY, to augment standard responses due to multiple calls. We should always err on the side of caution. Its the same reason we have a 10-14 engine respond in the FDNY, to supplement reduced manning on the first due companies, we don't wait to see if its a job or not.

In this career, where time is always the enemy and rarely on our side, we should appreciate proactive company officers, who get to the scene and call for what they think they need. If they were afraid of showing up the chief, they shouldn't be in a decision making position.

Having buffed 25 years in New York City, I have heard many a 10-75 by first due companies based on the smoke they see in the distance. Who cares if on occasion, they make a premature call and they use 1+1 and find out it was outside rubbish.

Its why we have a FAST truck at every job, to be there if needed. Thankfully, I can say 95% of the time the FAST Truck is not put to work, but they are there and ready. Its the same premise as we are discussing in this post. Call off the Cavalry once you get there, not before. Upgrade the assignment prior to your arrival if information presented to you deems that, whether it is PD on scene, information from dispatch, etc.

But this ego premise really disturbs me. A first due company officer is not usurping the authority of any chief by calling for what he needs after he gets there. His A**, fighting the fire, is probably more at risk than the chief.

My final opinion on the matter is this. Any chief who feels the need to question an on scene size up and REDUCE the request for additonal resources BEFORE his own arrival at the job, should not the have confidence of his men, which should be reflected in the next company officers election.

Luckily in my experience, it rarely happens, or doesnt happenmuch from what I have seen. Being a chief is not the result of winning a popularity contest, it is the result of people placing their trust in your decision making and abitlity to lead in times of crisis.

Having started buffing in 1973, I remember walking to Pelham Manor's house weekly from Co-op City where I lived. The all Mack CF house with the PD next door. Yes, Pelham Manor is an affluent community, but the runs and workers numbers probably dont justify buying a new rig, as far as the town is concerned. (Although I've seen that darn aerialscope up in the air more than a few occasions recently here on EMTBRavo, thanks Nate). Hey, I'd like to see a new rig too, but if it can pass the pump test.... One question for you experts, will it replace the other CF engine or the Spartan engine?

Side note: PM has the best pizza( 4 corners) and a pretty darn good Japanese steakhouse (Edo) !!

Res6cue, well said, too often we dont know what we have until we lose it. In your case, I am happy to see you and your company members let the love you shared for your brother be known while he was around to feel it.

"Appreciate today, for tomorrow isn't promised"

Rest In Peace, Brother.

My condolences to Hillcrest FC #1, and to his family and extended FD family for their loss.

Having grown up in the Bronx in the '70's, I can only tell you it was awesome if you were a buff. I grew up in Co-op City, in the same building that the Bx. Supervising Dispatcher lived, so my intro to scanners came early on. Buffing came shortly thereafter, when the action moved up the Concourse to the confines of the 18, the 19, and the old 56 Batt. Having met Dennis Smith when he got to 61 truck was exciting for a teenager who had read ( and seen some of) the war stories of 82 engine.

Whether it was a row of taxpayers, or a vacant building, it was 10 -15 years I'll never forget.

After all those years, I still listen, but dont get down from Ct as much as I'd like to. I was at the 3rd alarm last Sunday when we lost two brothers, and it brought back memories. May they rest in peace.

Somehow though, even though the other boroughs had busy years, it always seemed the Bronx was busier. I'll never forget my high school final project in which myself and 2 classmates went down to the South Bronx and made a film on urban decay. The year was 1981, and we caught a job on Jennings Street right away, that '78 Mack from 85 engine feeding TL-58, feels like yesterday !!

I used to sit by 66 engine waiting for 96 to come up on interchange, and take the QBx-1 bus to Tremont Avenue (and walk to 72 from there) to see what new toy Stan had put on their rig. ( Yeah guys, I know, I could have taken the 40 bus across Tremont, but in those days there was no transfer, and money was tight when you were 14 !!

Hope I didn't bore you guys, but when I saw the BX posts, I had to chime in.

Lew

Danbury Ct. has a paid engine ( Engine 23 ) stand by across from Danbury Hospital when Lifestar is flying into that hospital.

They dont stretch a line, they just stand fast until the landing is complete.

Personally, I think LZ's at an accident scene are more potentially problematic than routine landings at the hospital. However, I think its still a good idea to have some FD personnel at the scene of landings at hospitals.

I remember back in 1993, ( and some of you guys were there) my car was hit by a tractor trailer on I -684 northbound just south of the I-84 westbound entrance. It was serious PIAA and although I was rough shape, there was a subsequent MVA 5 minutes after mine, where a car went into the rear of the TT that hit me.

His injuries were quite severe, and Ill never forget the sound of that bird landing on 684 100+ feet away from me. I ended up being transported by Brewster FD to Danbury Hospital (thanks guys !!) ( I never realized that when youre boarded and collared that 10 minute ride seems like a half hour on your back)

24" at Danbury Airport, wind made drifts well over 3 feet!!