FFPCogs

To the original post: I'm in ..we don't know for sure if there's anyone in there or not. I treat every fire as if there may people trapped until I know for sure otherwise. The sooner the wet stuff hits the red stuff the better off we all are, FFs and potential victims alike. I'll take my chances defending my decision with the higher ups. Just my $.02 But as I've said before I'm a dinosaur As for being ordered flat out not to make entry...well that's the order, and the IC's the boss. Cogs

I just want to express my deepest sysmpathy for Ryan's family, and I hope all injured recovery fully. What a waste of a young and promising life. I hope no one gets it in their head to blame anyone other than the F***ing a**hole that pulled the trigger. R.I.P. Ryan...R.I.P. Cogs

First off, hope all the FFs and cops are ok and suffer no long term effects. Whether or not there's any connection..if he torched his building or had it torched, I hope the full weight of the law crushes him. Unfortunately we all know the conviction rates for arson. Cogs

Well put. Generally speaking yes, absolutely the MPO/chauffer stays with the rig. In extreme cases, when no other alternative is available then we have to do what we have to do. I'm not a believer in absolutes on the fireground, I've worked a few jobs that called for the extreme. I look at it like this, if you leave your position as a driver you better damn well have a good reason for doing so, and make sure everyone knows your doing it. SOP/G's are great, and I'm an firm advocate of having them in place, but they are just that...guidelines. The situation dictates the response, sometimes measures above and beyond or in "violation" of established SOP/Gs are necessary. As for drivers staying with the rig at events off the fireground...that makes perfectly good sense to me. At the very least a probie with a radio should "stand guard". Cogs

I too am of the belief that robots or AI systems are at present not able to replace human firefighters. They do not yet have the capabilities for independent thought or action outside of pre programmed information. So for today ..yes all the uses so far decribed would be feasible and maybe even in most cases desirable. As for tomorrow..well who knows. Everyday it seems there is another improvement or leap forward in the technologies of computer science and robotics. Then there is the obsession with safety to contend with in favor of robotic FFs. (I am a firm believer in FF safety, but I believe that some standards have become overblown and actually hamper our ability to simply do what we are there to do, which is "save lives and put the fire out", but that's another discussion). Obviously it is much safer to put inanimate machines in harms way rather than human beings. Based on this I would have to say that yes it is concieveable that humans could be replaced eventually by machines...maybe even in my lifetime. There are other factors besides technology and safety though. Cost being first among them...do we spend $500,000 on a new rig or on a robot with no way to get it to the scene and all the necessary support apparatus to make it work? And of course there is also the human desire to help others and well let's face it, beat our age old nemesis the "red devil". Tradition and emotion would be a huge obstacle to be overcome for firefighters to be completely replaced by robots. Personally, I'll take my chances battling the beast..I enjoy what I do far too much to give it up to a machine, but hey I'm a dinosaur anyway.. Cogs

I do again apologize to anyone I may have offended by expressing lay offs as an alternative. I should have tried to make my point in another less inflammatory manner. I would like to address one post here which asked how I would feel if I were in the position of having my career threatened by a lay off. I can tell you how I felt....angry, confused and powerless !! I have lost a union position due to budgetary woes, and another well paying career due to the political maneuvers of others. So I know exactly how it feels to walk in those shoes. You know what, I truly don't want to see anyone have go through what I did. Acting as the Devil's advocate, my point was that there are alternatives based on the statements of the Administration...as unpleasant and in all honesty as unrealistic as they may be. From my understanding of what I read here, many people blame the BFD for this problem. I disagree with that assesment. It is the City adminstration in general and Malloy in particular that are the root cause by using what amounts to unlawful tactics to force an outcome...it's called coercion. Just to be clear...coercion: 1. the act of coercing; use of force or intimidation to obtain compliance. 2. force or the power to use force in gaining compliance, as by a government or police force. Now I understand that calling for people to lose their jobs is "crossing the line", and I realize that by using that example in the manner in which I did, it could be construed as a call for such action. It was NOT. As erroneous as it turned out, my intent was to show that slashing the budget of the VFDs has, in a sense, the same effect as cutting jobs or pay. And before you all jump up with your flaming torches and pitchforks, just try this on for size. Causing a person to lose their job or take a pay cut due to budgetary woes, hurts the individual in the same way forcing a department to operate underfunded effects that department. Each would have to make do with less or worse...nothing. Now this may seem an inappropriate analogy...but when boiled down it's not. According to Malloy and his cronies it's about saving money...and there is more than one way to accomplish that, like it or not. For now the City has the VFDs as scapegoats..but who will suffer from the next round of budget revisions? Will the volunteers again face the loss of funding once SFRD personnel are stationed in all the VFD houses and the budget surpasses projections? For that matter why fund the VFDs at all once we have the SFRD in those houses? I think anyone can see how these questions and their possible and plausible outcome would cause concern for the volunteer FFs there. Or maybe...just maybe it will be the Local's turn to lose out and take a hit. As firefighters regardless of whether we are paid or volunteer, we should ALL be standing with the VFDs to regain their due funding because..."there but for the grace of God go I" . It may very well be that in the future the paid FFs of Stamford will face the same tactics by Malloy and Co. contract or not, in dealing with their budget. We all know how much they respect standing legal documents. When they want to slash the SFRD budget I think most of you would readily accept any support offered by Stamford's volunteer FFs and I'm sure you would have it...return the favor in advance! Just one more point here in regards to Gamewell45s post. Again I DO NOT want to see nor do I advocate the loss of jobs by anyone..my statements to that effect were a misrepresentation of my intent...it was a bad use of words. In your post you speak of the City's credibility and mutual trust. Well in this case the City has broken that trust by NOT negotiating with the VFDs. Demanding compliance and attempting to force it through funding cuts are not the acts of trustworthy officials. This fact I hope is not lost on all who post here. Cogs

To the BFD 8 My sincere apologies for a bad example. I DO NOT want you to lose your job. And if nothing else at least now you all agree on something..I'll happily take the beating to get you all on the same side. Cogs

The last few posts I have made have been somewhat tongue in cheek, but they may also be valid arguments to "Mrs Smith". In reality I don't want to see anyone lose their job..or take a pay cut ect. I am just responding in the vain of alot of those who respond here with simplistic approaches to this whole mess. Any view can be made to look valid given enough hot air. Any offense was not intended...although it's not suprising that I ruffled a few feathers. A long term solution has to be found taking into account all sides of these issues. The current state of affairs cant last inderfinitely. Cogs

Thanks for clearing that up. It just seems to me that the whole premise of this "consolidation" is flawed. As has been stated, the number of paid personnel responding has gone UP..therefore the cost of providing that coverage has also gone UP. Where is this "savings' going to come from. Overtime savings..please..overtime will be the same as it always has been..people will still get sick, take vacations and God forbid get injured ect. Someone will have to cover those open positions...and get paid overtime to do it. As for the BFD membership VOTING to reject the "plan", well yes they did as is their right to do and they are responsible for no paid personnel at their station. That doesn't absolve the City from ensuring the proper spending of the residents tax dollars. As it stands the residents of Belltown do not have paid personnel in their firehouse as the consolidation plan calls for..therefore they shouldn't be paying for them. The SFRD decided to provide the outgoing mutual aid..or automatic response at the BFDs request. The SFRD chose to accept this added responsibility..the taxpayers had no say in where their money is going. Technically speaking since there are no paid personnel in Belltown the residents shouldn't be paying for them, whether or not they respond from out of the district. I reviewed the articles ect relating to this whole mess, and as I understand it the consolidation is supposed to save money and provide paid coverage 24/7 to all of Stamford fire districts save LRFCo. According to Malloy and Co. the refusal of the BFD and TORFD to accept this "plan" resulted in their budgets being slashed 90%. To be fair the lack of salaries ect for paid FFs would justify a considerable reduction in those budgets. But I'm sure all of you can understand that $20,000 or $40,000 for fuel for the rigs is not enough either. There are other expenses involved in running a firehouse, and being able to meet the needs of the community such as training, maintainence of rigs and facilities, ect. So here's one for you to chew on that is as realistic and productive as cutting the VFDs budget by 90%. Since by the virtue of the Mayor's own statements this is about money and safety, why doesn't the SFRD staff take a pay and benefit cut of say....Ohh, maybe about 15-20%. This will allow the hiring of additional FFs to cover each district with at least one 4 man engine or truck company each, north of the "border" with no increase in the budget. Win - win as I see it. The SFRD gets more firefighters and the residents are therefore safer, and it won't cost the taxpayers anymore than it does now. If the MAIN factors in all this are public safety and the budget, than there is no logical argument. Cogs

How could it have cost more money? The fact remains that there hasn't been any paid firefighters in Belltown since Jan 1st '08..hence no money has been needed to be spent there since Jan. 1st for payroll, benefits ect. This whole notion of cost savings is just horse s*** to cover the REAL agenda...and please don't be naive enough to think there's not another agenda at work here. Maybe someone can answer this...where is all the money earmarked to pay those 16 FF and officers (4 shifts x 4 personnel) that would have been assigned to the BFD that have not been working there since Jan. 1st? Residents of Belltown are paying taxes for non existent paid FF coverage at THEIR neighborhood firehouse. Where have those FF been assigned? Here's a solution: Since those 8 former BFD paid FFs are not needed because there is NO paid personnel in Belltown, maybe they should simply be laid off. That would save a few bucks wouldn't it, with no loss of service to the residents of Belltown. Just a thought. Cogs

WOW!!!!! Look at all the savings from that wonderful consolidation plan. How can it be that another 194,000 is needed when their not even paying anyone in Belltown. It boggles the mind. Cogs

Mike, You're on the right track...Stay on it !! Someday you and others your age will be running things..if, unlike so many of my generation, you can keep this type of mentality..you'll be doing yourselves, the fire service as a whole..and most importantly your communities a world of good. Sometimes it seems impossible for "visionaries" to make changes, but they do. Keep at it. Take care and as always Stay Safe Cogs

The real villians in all this are Malloy and Co. They choose this path. The system was working, maybe it needed a bit of tweaking, but it worked. All the BS spewed about cost saving and "better" protection was just that...BS ! We all know it. So now you have a system verging on a breakdown and an administration fueling the fire. Lose the agendas on all sides. It's time to get it fixed and fixed under the conditions that NOW exist. For the BFD and all the volunteers in Stamford, it's time to step up and develope a plan that will guarantee 24 / 7 coverage in the very near future..like it or not......IT CAN BE DONE ! Consolidate, confederate, or do whatever the hell it is you have to do to make that happen. If you can't then open the doors. Get over what was and start dealing with what is. As for the SFRD, well you ain't going to be in those houses any time soon...so get over it. Your union isn't getting any bigger today. Time for you all to wrap your heads around that fact and start working towards living with it. Undermining the volunteers by word or deed ultimately only puts the residents in jeopardy. The same goes for you...Get over what was and start dealing with what is. The pissing match here, in the newspaper, and anywhere else it shows it's ugly head isn't solving or changing anything. Day by day it's just making things worse for everyone..especially the residents your all there to serve...remember them. You should all direct your ire where it belongs...at Malloy and his lackeys at 888 Washington Blvd. All of you need to wake up, get your heads out of your asses and realize the fact that their the ones screwing all of you. You are allowing yourselves to be led around by the nose by people that don't care about you or the community one way or the other. Stop serving the agendas of the few, and get yourselves together paid and volunteer, and start acting like the fire service professionals you all claim to be. In Stamford you are all fortunate, you have the knowledge, talent and resources to build a fire service second to none. Don't blow it !! There's my $.02 for today. Cogs To the volunteers in Stamford....and especially the guys in Belltown, although it may not seem so by the above statements I am and will remain one of your staunchest supporters. I have absolutely no doubt that my family there is safe and secure under your protection now. But I, as should everyone, must look beyond today to a year from now or 5 years from now. By all accounts the current state of affairs cannot last indefinitely...for your survival and my family's well being all alternatives must be explored. Cogs

Joe, In answer to your question about lack of paid rigs and staff in Belltown. You already know that answer. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Alot more dough North of Vine. Cogs Not that I want to see it but the old CD property or Town Yard on Haig would also fill the bill..and they are already City property.

Geppetto, Yet again you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Whatever your leanings on this issue, to me you have put forth the facts and the inescapable truth. The volunteers of Stamford are going to have to change their ways to effectively protect their residents and to simply survive. What direction that change will take is still an open question. Well that's my $.02 worth. Cogs

The following is a firefighter from Springdale Arkansas...not the Springdale Fire Co. of Stamford. A former Springdale Ark. firefighter died Monday in Iraq when his vehicle struck a roadside bomb. Justin D. English, 25, left the Springdale Fire Department on June 13 to take a job with Wackenhut Services Inc. He arrived in Iraq on June 30. Justin English served as a Springdale firefighter and emergency medical technician from Sept. 11, 2006, until he left to do the same work as a private contractor in Iraq. Wackenhut spokesman Sam Brinkley wouldn't release many details of the incident but said English was traveling in a convoy near Baghdad. Brinkley did not know the type of vehicle but said it would have been armored. Brinkley said the company provides fire prevention and suppression duties protecting U.S. personnel at installations in Iraq. Employees can work alongside military firefighters or they can work alone, but they stay on base in either case. Other Wackenhut personnel were injured, but Brinkley said he could not release more information about the incident. Arlene English said her son had never married and did not have children. She said he was the type of man who was always ready with a kind word and helping hand. *I have only posted excerpts from the full article. The full story is available at Firehouse.com. See the link below Article My deepest sympathy and condolences to Justin and his family. R.I.P. Cogs Here is some additional info. The vehicle in which FF English was travelling is called a Rhino..basically a armored bus. This vehicle is used as a short range transport between bases for military and civilian personnel. Apparently FF English was being transported to his initial assignment base from Camp Liberty. (All civilian personnel process through Liberty before placement at their duty station). The IED was struck along the route somewhere between Camp Liberty and a nearby base..which one is unknown at this time. 2 KBR civilian employees were also killed, and a number of other cilvilian employees and military personnel were injured. No info on the number or extent of injuries. Cogs

QUOTE(FFPCogs @ Jul 8 2008, 01:20 AM) As of now the BFD and TORFD apparently feel they can meet the needs of the community. In regards to this statement, I may not have been clear in it's meaning. I too have read the quotes from the VFD Chiefs, but those Chiefs do put the safety and security of the residents of their districts first as hard as that may be for some to believe. With what coverage they have managed to secure, and based on the current level of volunteer participation, it seems that they feel the requirements to the community are being met...FOR NOW. Not necessarily for six weeks, six months or six years from now. Believe this or not as well, but I fully understand and for the most part agree with all the facts and views expressed that find fault with the idea of volunteer shift coverage 24/7. What I do not agree with is the view that says dont' even try. Yes this isn't Kentland with it's call volume, or anywhere else I realize that. But this is an issue involving volunteers providing 24/7 coverage to their residents. The fact is there are departments out there besides Kentland that do provide that level of service, it IS being done. Personally, I find it somewhat premature, and honestly close minded to write off this or any alternative without it being fully explored by the parties involved, and possibily even attempted. No one can say for certain that this won't work, just as neither I nor anyone can say it will with 100% certainty. Regarding the volunteers role in Stamford's fire service. My understanding and my experience is that the volunteers in Stamford have always been capable of much more than simply offering support services, and still are. The very same argument that says that Stamford isn't Kentland or MD/VA or wherever is just as valid in terms of the role of Stamford's volunteers now. Stamford isn't Danbury or Hamden ect. If we are going to look elsewhere for "role models" for the Stamford volunteers then we should look at them all objectively, not just the ones that support our personal views. To be fair this goes for me as well. Cogs

Geppetto, I couldn't have said it any better. And thank you for actually approaching this with a serious look at what would be needed, and not simply bashing any alternative viewpoint. Maybe others will finally follow suit. Cogs

Eckyphats, Thanks for the facts and your experience relating to my proposal. I have always maintained that in order for the VFDs there to guarantee 24/7 coverage a shift system would be needed. That is what I have been saying here all along. I have also repeatedly stated that a dramatic change in operations would be necessary to meet the challenge of 24/7 coverage. If allowing new members from outside the established area in, incorporating live-ins, allowing qualified out of town volunteers to "work" shifts or any combination thereof is what is needed, then that's what's needed. I have also stated and repeatedly stressed here that if 24/7 coverage cannot be guaranteed then paid personnel are the ONLY alternative. As of now the BFD and TORFD apparently feel they can meet the needs of the community. I sincerely hope that contingencies are being worked out to prepare for a time when this may not be so. Looking into and outlining a shift system or some other alternative now, utilizing all the resources available, would alleviate a crisis due to lack of manpower when or if it were to arise. I have posted what I believe to be an alternative to paid personnel in these houses, but I am willing and able to do more than simply type words on a page. That being the case let me state here and now, for the record that I would offer my services up to 2 shifts per week now and for the forseeable future, to any department there to help ensure 24/7 coverage. I have always firmly believed that if one is going to comment or make suggestions then they should be willing to back them up..I am. Cogs

I'll get the ball rolling. Here's a little of that positive rhetoric; I commend the volunteers of Belltown and TOR for taking on the added responsibility created by the removal of the paid personnel from their firehouses. I applaud their dedication and commitment to serving their neighbors. I know they have earned the respect and admiration of my family (mother in BFD and sister,br.in law and kids in TOR) living in those districts. So on their behalf Thank You Cogs

OK let's see if I can answer the questions asked in a realistic factual manner. I am aware that the "flying squad" concept was a dismal failure there 10-12 years back and therein is an answer to one aspect of your concerns. 10 to 12 years have past since then and the situation has changed considerably. There are no longer paid drivers, FFs or whatever term is used to describe them in Belltown or at the TORFD stations. No fallback for the volunteers to count on..which HAS influenced their commitment level for the better as of now. Hopefully this change will also allow them the ability to think outside established norms. FYI the areas around Washington D.C. in MD. and VA where some U.S. Senators, Congressmen and Federal Gov't. executives live is also a very expensive area in which to live...the cost of living is on par with what it is in Fairfield county. Again even when faced with these expenses along with the simple demands of life they DO manage to volunteer and meet the requirements of 24/7 coverage. This is a fact pure and simple. They do it by dedicating themselves to the commitment they have made to provide 24/7 coverage no matter what it takes. I would expect that the same level of dedication to that commitment would be necessary to those involved in Stamford. And to offer a different viewpoint, maybe the volunteers should combine and it is the SFRD that should augment them with resources when needed. Just a thought. To all: Look I am not here to debate the virtues of what I have proposed although I will, when questioned, offer what insight and information I have in support of this alternative. It strikes me though that no one posting here is attempting to address the situation as it now stands. Not you, not me, not anyone for the most part posting here is going to change the FACT that the BFD and TOR are 100% volunteer. Wanting paid personnel in those houses, demanding paid personnel in those houses, or citing what may be a legitimate concerns to force paid personnel into those houses isn't going to make it happen. It is out of our hands to force any outcome. Therefore, I would think that for firefighters who have been around for a period of time, and who consistently maintain that public safety is the Prime concern, addressing the situation as it currently IS would be far more productive. Whether or not you agree with the decision those departments have made to become 100% volunteer organizations, they are...that is an established fact. Paid firefighters are NOT going to be in those houses in the next hour, or day or most likely the next month...period. Knowing this and as painful as it may be, accepting this FACT, what positive solution can any of you firefighters out there, whatever your affilliation, offer to aid these departments in protecting their residents effectively? If nothing else I have at least offered up an alternative grounded in the reality of the situation as it is...not how I want it to be. The easiest thing to do is to outline all the negatives, no matter how valid. How about a little positive rhetoric, and realistic alternatives based on the situation as it IS to achieve what is of most importance...PUBLIC SAFETY. Cogs

Pat, Not to debate or offend you, but the math involved here is actually of vital importance. It is absolutely necessary to do the math to divide any shifts equally among the members to incorporate a system similar to the ones I have cited. In those departments down there members are assigned shifts, just as their career counterparts are. Actually the only difference between the career and volunteers if the fact that the volunteers have decided to serve for no pay. This allows them to offer the SAME level of service while saving their taxpayers some money. Each volunteer is required to fill a minimum number of shifts based on the available pool of qualified FFs. Another fact which I may not have stated clearly enough is that in these departments only those ON shift respond. There is no POV or from home response. This last point could of course be modified to meet the specific needs of the BFD et al. These shifts are somewhat flexible, within reason, in terms of hours or days on. But to ensure equal "work" and guaranteed coverage all members must meet the minimum. There is also room for those who wish to do more. Each member upon inquiring about joining is made aware that this requirement is mandatory...it is the first thing they are told actually. Even with this seemingly non-volunteer approach the ranks are full and it appears that they will remain so for the forseeable future. I realize this may be unpalatable to some, maybe all of you there, but new solutions demand new thinking. Take care and as always Stay Safe Cogs

I am NOT saying that this is what anyone there HAS to do..or even that volunteer shifts is what they should do. I am simply providing information as objectively as I can regarding an alternative based on the situation as it now stands...which is BFD and TOR ARE 100% volunteer like it or not and whether right or wrong they are determined to stay that way for now. Just to clarify, my intention here is not to beat a dead horse with this but when someone posts here either questioning the idea or trying to discredit it for whatever reason I will address those posts. Also although there have been no posts here supporting this alternative, there is interest in it by some concerned parties on both sides which has been expressed to me via other channels. I have decided to respect these individuals anonymity (whatever their reason) because that is their wish. Like many others posting here I too have a history with the fire service in Stamford, and enjoy the friendship and respect of those who know me there both paid and volunteer. Cogs

PJ R. Very true 11 probationary members. And 19 active members who joined in or before 2005 (not counting veteran members who are not currently IAFF members). The 19 are ones that Chief Didelot cited. By the way do ALL paid firefighters come on the job with years of experience under their belts or do they too learn on the job? Cogs

Fly, You are absolutely right... the BFD or any other VFD there would be hard pressed to meet the requirements of staffing apparatus 24/7 as things are now. I have always maintaind that this is a possible alternative, not the only one. As to this system working in other parts of the country, they too had to start off somewhere. They were faced with the very same dilemas which the BFD et al face in Stamford now. When this system was put in place in those areas it was new to them as well, there were the same kinks to work out and adjustments to be made. The point is it WAS done. Volunteers everywhere have to juggle the demands of life while making time to volunteer. The members of the 100% volunteer stations operating under this system also have families, jobs, hobbies ect that make up their lives...in that respect they are NO different than volunteers here. What is different is the manner in which they serve. They have committed themselves to providing 24/7 staffing of their firehouses, and even with family obligations, jobs, and all the other factors of life they manage to do it. If and it's a HUGE if, the volunteers in Stamford are willing to accept this type of change in operations and make the necessary commitment, there is no reason to assume this wouldn't work in Stamford as well. No matter what I or anyone else posts here ultimately it is up to the volunteers to devise a method to guarantee the safety of the citizens they protect. Another thing, unlike the departments down in MD and VA. which had to figure all this out as they went along, the volunteers here have access to a system that is already up and running. All they have to do is ask for advice from them as to ways to help make this work. Take care and as always Stay Safe Cogs