FireMedic049

My condolences to all involved on your loss.

What the hell is a city like Pittsburgh going to do without a tactical team?

As I just posted, I'm skeptical about the information posted regarding Pittsburgh. However, the County Police has a SWAT team. Most of the other communities in the County rely on the County Police for services like SWAT & Homicide investigation.

Akron, OH is laying off 201 municipal employees including 96 police officers (about 25% of their force) and 38 firefighters.

Putnam County is laying off 22 and eliminating another 27 positions (through retirements and eliminating unfilled positions).

Pittsburgh, PA is laying off 102 police officers, eliminating their SWAT and mounted units, and recalling all officers assigned to multi-jurisdictional task forces. They will also close one police precinct.

Stockton, CA is threatening to layoff 43 police officers unless concessions can be reached with the union.

Same thing in Denver, CO where 91 police officer positions hang in the balance and in Boston, MA where 200 police officers wait to learn their fate.

If anyone things the "recession is over" think again. The NYS Comptroller forecast says that local governments may be called upon next year to contribute substantially more to the pension programs due to the ailing economy. If that happens it would have catastrophic affects on communities small and large.

Where'd you get the info regarding Pittsburgh? I live in the area and I've seen nothing about this in the news or heard any chatter about it.

Well we could start with the ladder rating and what it can hold. I went back to my notes from Yale and found a formula I developed for finding out how much water is in a 4 inch pipe: Volume = Pi (3.14159) X Radius of pipe 2 X Length of pipe

Then convert Volume to Weight.

So, for 10 feet of 4" Inside Diameter pipe:

Radius = 1/2 * Diameter = 1/2 * 4 inch = 2 inch

Length = 120 inches

Volume = 3.14159 X 22 X 120 = 1,508 cubic inches

1 cubic inch of water = 0.036127 pounds

So: 1508 cubic inches * 0.036127 pounds per cubic inch = 54 pounds.

I do not know how high the ladder was but for the best pictures for TV and newspapers and for everyone to see you at the top it should be at least 80 feet in the air. So we have 432 pounds plus 2 firefighters 300 pounds each with gear. For a grand total of 1032 pounds operating on the ladder plus the reaction force of the flowing water which I could not find in my Yale notes. Now we get to those dirty lawyers who will use my notes from Yale to prove that there was no reason for 2 firefighter to be operating beyond the manufacturers specs to "save " a building that was burning down to be at the tip. He will have video and newspaper footage because they do take the best shots from that high and what do we get? Hootie and the crew get no money and have to pay to fix the truck. So this topic should be titled Firefighter stupidity causes failure of the truck and not Catastrophic Aerial Ladder Failure In PA

Post

Not quite sure why you quoted me for this response, but I'll assume it was in response to my "why" question.

I was in no way attempting to condone what took place at this specific incident, however I really don't see it as any sort of "justification" for a "don't put anybody at the tip" course of action. The incident appears, from the info I've seen so far, to be largely a case of "operator error" - grossly exceeding the max tip load. If you do all of these things on a 250# tip load, then the outcome that occurred is pretty predictable.

There is no need for a FF to be on the the tip...is the dept there to poor to buy some rope? I know when I joined my first FD we had a 1949 American Lafrance with a 65' ladder. One the first things I was shown was how to manually set the outriggers, attach the ladder pipe to the fly while in the bed, stretched and attach a 3 inch hose from the pipe to the turntable, and then attach a halyard to the pipe. That way in could be operated from the ground, and could be directed in conjunction with the operator on the turntable and other spotters on the fireground. It's not about being a "Safety Sally" but going home in one piece. Why take the unnecesary risk.

I'm well aware of the rope thing, but you still can't properly direct the stream very well doing so. I really don't see it as an "unnecessary risk" to have somebody operating up there and don't quite understand the desire to utilize multiple personnel to direct the stream, when one person could easily and unless you're being stupid, safely from the tip. What's the actual concern with this? Is it a fear of ladder failure? Is it a fear of them falling off? Help me understand because there's a lot more dangerous things you could be doing on the fireground?

PS who uses a 4 inch line to feed a ladder pipe?

Apparently they do.

This happened not too far outside my area. The speculation on a "local" forum is leaning towards "operator error" based on the assumption of a tip load limit of 250# with 2 FFs and a 4" supply line running up the ladder.

As for why a person was operating at the tip.........well, the ladder did not have a pre-piped waterway. So they had to go "old school" for the master stream, which normally would necessitate a person being there to direct the water flow.

Maybe it's just me, but I think you guys are being a bunch of "Safety Sallies" about not wanting to put a person up there to direct the stream.

Two, the American people know that GM makes nothing but garbage, anyway.

Maybe we've just been lucky, but my wife and I have owned 2 Chevy Silverados in succession (4 years each) and a Chevy Impala for 6-1/2 years now with virtually no problems with any of them and nothing more than scheduled maintenance repairs.

So, from my experiences at least, I'd have to disagree with the "nothing but garbage" assessment.