JJB531

Redmack, in addition to the unlicensed I also write them for Failure to Notify DMV of Change of Address.

A lot of times also people will have out state licenses because they can't get a NY license because they are suspended or revoked in NY. Like RWC said, working a radar car in the Bronx, we get out of state documents all the time, many of which are forged. But also, typically we find in the car computer that the motorist has a history in New York and usually has either suspended or revoked driving privileges in NY state. Now if I come across that at about 2330 hrs... I'll be thanking my perp for buying me a new TV with the OT I'm gonna make off it.

There's also a scam with these BS Bronx car dealerships, where they give out temporary out-of-state documents which are all bogus.

How do so many non residents continue to get away with registering their vehicles in Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Michigan, etc ?????

It came to mind after reading about the MVA in Yonkers with injuries on Odell Avenue yesterday. The owner's NY address was located this time by a lucky break, but what happens if the driver escapes and your only clue is a license plate registered out of state ?? How can you determine the identity of the NY resident owner??

This is a big problem with illegals doing hit and run accidents.

Thank You and stay cool.

Dr. Zuki

Lawrence Hospital

←

It's called insurance rate evasion. People get away with it because they are not registering the vehicles out of state, but instead they have a family member who resides in RI, FL, MA, PA or anywhere else register the vehicle for them. A lot of outside states, especially PA, it is very easy to register a vehicle, and the vehicle will come up not in the drivers name, but in the name of the relative who registered it.

The only way would be to contact the registered owner in the state the plate came from and find out who is using the vehicle in NY.

It's a huge pain in the a** and makes me laugh that an individual will buy a $60,000 Escalade but then registers it in RI under his aunt's address because he can't afford the insurance on it. Amazing how everyone is "just borrowing the car" from their relative when asked why they have their vehicle registered out of state.

I just don't see it as our job to frisk patients, its better left up to the police who can intervene if they find something. If i were to find something on a patient i have virtually no ability to diffuse the situation - other than taking an O2 tank to his head.  Also, lets not forget that this guy could have been carrying a .22 or another small weapon in his pocket or sock or some other indiscriminate place.

I just hope they crew doesn't face allot of heat from all of this.

←

I agree 100% that it is not an EMS providers job to frisk patients and that it is the job of the police... but this is not an issue of job titles or job descriptions... this is an issue of safety and street smarts. If you find something on a patient, your ability to diffuse the situation is pulling that ambulance over, getting the hell out of it, and calling for PD back up. I'd rather find something on someone and get outta the situation then find it when he/she puts a bullet through my chest. Absolutely this individual could have carried his firearm in an indiscriminate place, and I wouldn't necessarily frisk a guy's ankles for weapons, but I typically make it a point to check their waist area/pockets.

Obviously you can request from the PD on scene to do the frisk for you, and I wouldn't necessarily say EMS providers should toss someone without conferring with the on scene PD first.

I agree w/ 20y2 saying its a tough call, I have been in situations where the rapport is there and others where I wish I could be teching from the front of the bus.

I would tend to agree w/ goose, unless I'm totally confident of that rapport or have two people in the back w/ me, I am really not going to overtly and actively search my pt. Not all people are stupid enough to not realize that the true reason for the PE is not medical but to search. If the guy truly is EDP, that aggravation of an ulterior motive might not help the situation. Take for example the situation from the thread; from the news article, the EDP did not get violent and shoot himself until secuirty was making bones about frisking him...that almost settles my debate right there....I'd prefer not to be the precipitating factor.

←

Nowhere in the article does it say that the EDP didn't get violent and shoot himself in the head until security was "making bones" about frisking him.

In the article it says "Hospital security guards were getting ready to frisk Taylor when shot himself, but the question is, should police have frisked him out on the street?"

Sounds more like the hospital is trying to say it is common practice to frisk EDP's so they can CYA to the media..

Question:

Do you expose and preform a head to toe exam on a apparent non-violent psych reportedly requesting transport for eval?

The point i think Clutch was making is that we aren't police officers. We shouldn't have to frisk or search our patients before letting them on our ambulance. In this day and age doing so could be used against us.

In all honesty, when i'm alone in the back i'm doing everything to avoid conflict with or spark conflict with an EDP. Unless the person is coming in with a definite medical complaint i am not going to push any form of evaluation/treatment on them.

←

I frisk every EDP that I come into contact with... I don't just throw my hands on them and start patting them down though. Typically a good number of EDP's, once you build a rapport with them, will give you permission to perform an exam. I've had few EDP's that don't allow me to perform an exam or frisk them, and those who don't allow it, are typically so out of control they are restrained by PD. You don't have to tell them you are looking for weapons, you can ask for their permission to check them out to make sure they have no injuries. Speaking as a police officer, I don't expose every perp on the street to see if they have a weapon. You don't have to strip someone down to find a gun or a knife on them. Even if you don't do a full head to toe exam, while you are putting the EDP on your stretcher, as you are buckling him/her in, make it a point to inconspicuously contact as much of their waist line with your hand as possible. Trust me, if there's a gun there, you will feel it. Think about where most people carry firearms... in their waist line or pockets.

I don't see how it can be used against you. You are not doing anything illegal.

Remember, and EDP is not just a crazy person who is going to fly off the handle if you look at them the wrong way. An EDP can simply be someone who is just depressed and not violent or a danger to anyone. Building a rapport with them and talking to them like a human will instill their confidence in you.

Great. Now we start doing physical head to toe exams on psych patients. THAT won't get us into any trouble.

←

Just curious what trouble you expect from performing a thorough physical exam on a patient... even a psych patient. For all they know you could be looking for injuries or injury patterns (i.e. multiple lacerations of varying stages of healing indicative of a person who is a "cutter") that may give you more of an understanding about the patient.

Buddy of mine who used to work in the same precinct with me transferred down to Florida. A number of the County Sheriff's in Florida have take home, marked patrol cars. He said it wasn't uncommon to see these marked patrol cars being stopped by other agencies for speeding or other traffic violation. I couldn't believe it when he told me.

My feeling is, if I'm driving home at night from work, and I see a Trooper/Westchester County/Local P.O. fighting with some mope on the side of the road, I'm stopping and getting in the fight unlike most civilians who would just keep on driving. I've done it once or twice before and I'll do it again, doesn't matter if I'm in NY, Virginia, GEORGIA, or Alaska. That's what pisses me off about these storm troopers from Virginia... stopping a caravan of marked NYPD vehicles coming back from New Orleans like ONEEYED said... now if that VA Trooper had a car stop go bad and that caravan of NYPD vehicles came rollin' up, I guarantee you not one PO in the group wouldn't of taken action... would've looked like a fight scene from Braveheart as they charged the field.

I do the exact same thing with my PBA cards ONEEYED, only my immediate family get PBA cards... that's it. My cell phone is written on them also, and I educate them on proper PBA card etiquette. I love it when someone argues with me that they weren't speeding when I have them on radar, and then they want to give me a PBA card after giving me a hard time....

I am assigned to a radar/traffic unit... if I ask a motorist for their drivers license, reg, and proof of insurance, and the motorist shows me what I asked for and then gives me a PBA card, apologizes for their infraction, and is respectful... they're on their way without a peep from me.

If I ask for their license, reg, and insurance and they shove a PBA card in my face minus what I asked for and ask "why you stopping me?", my little black pen goes to work, legitimate PBA card or not. If they want courtesy... well it goes both ways. I see on average 10 to 15 PBA cards a night, 99% of the time no problems. But there's always that one dope who thinks because he/she has a PBA card he/she's untouchable. Doesn't work that way. Generally, unless the person really really pissed me off, if the cop calls me and I explain to them why I wrote over the PBA card, the summons can be taken care of later on. Sometimes my only reason for writing the card is to get the cop to call me so I can inform them how their friend/family member/whoever acted during the car stop.

Simply stated, if you have a PBA card and get pulled over...

#1 - Stop right away, don't make the cop chase after you

#2 - Turn your car off, interior light on, and hands on the steering wheel

#3 - GIVE THE P.O. WHAT HE/SHE ASKS FOR!

#4 - Offer the PBA Card and explain to the P.O. who it is. Make sure you have a

way of contacting the LEO who gave you the card.

#5 - Apologize for the infraction, even if in your mind you did nothing wrong.

#6 - BE POLITE!

#7 - If you are not a police officer, don't tell the cop you're "on the job". I laugh

everytime someone tells me they're "on the job" and I ask for their ID and

they show me some EMT badge they ordered out of Galls.

All this talk of carrying off-duty I thought you guys meant sneaking donuts into your pants pockets....

I had to do it......sorry!

It's a good point that Stat brings up, NYS is so afraid to distribute firearms without a tedious and prolonged process, even though we have the right to bare arms.

My question to all is this - why the need to carry when off-duty?  It's not a prick comment, I just am curious because my friends who are Cops seem to stray away from carrying off-duty because they don't want to "advertise" what they do.  Thanks!

←

You're not advertising what you do if you are carrying concealed. Why the need to carry off-duty? Because all it takes is that one time for the s**t to hit the fan... even something as stupid as a minor car accident and the next thing you know some dope is charging you with a tire iron from his trunk. Tire iron=threat of serious bodily injury with a weapon=say hello to my lil' friend...

I rarely carry off duty... figure I made it the first 22 years of life my before I became a police officer without the need for a firearm. Usually I'll only carry if I'm going into NYC or travelling through a "seedy" area that I may not be familiar with. Defnetly a matter of personal preference though.

Its designed to unnecissarially duplicate services and waste tax payer money that could better be spent on salaries.

←

They wouldn't spend the money on salaries anyways, so better to have more capabilities available at an incident... Billion dollar surplus in NYC and you are talking about Homeland Security and Safety purchases a waste of taxpayer money... I could think of alot more things that are a waste of taxpayer money...

NYPD ESU was providing rescue services a long time before FDNY. In a city as big as NY, a duplication of services is not such a bad idea. Historically there has always been a lot of "tension" between the FD and PD when it comes to rescue work... generally speaking though, whoever gets there first, conducts the rescue.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the use of construction equipment (i.e. a front loader) is actually a violation of OSHA policy... obviously in an emergency you have to do what you have to do, and I'm not saying anyone did anything wrong. But, there is the possibility one may open themselves up to liability (individually or as an agency) for constantly relying on a piece of equipment that OSHA does not approve for transporting individuals during rescue operations.

As Truck 4 said, they fall under the Criminal Possession of a Weapon statute in the Penal Law.

You also open yourself up to a great deal of liability if you do use it on someone... I know the old saying better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6, but in order for NYC police officers to carry an expandable baton at work, I had to receive specific training. That's why you see some NYPD guys with it, and some without it.

Section 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:

(1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles, chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or

(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto, imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon with intent to use the same unlawfully against another; or

The Penal Law has definitions for anything, but doesn't contain a definition for "billy". In the event you did tune somone up with it, it would be considered a deadly instrument until part (2), and you would have to justify your actions for using it.

That's the problem - there's this association and that association but they never grow any wings and fly (like the flying metaphor?  ).

I don't know what the solution is but there must be a way to support the industry in our area.

←

Very nice metaphor Chris, I think one solution is more public awareness through public information. Law Enforcement agencies have PIO's, FD's have PIO's... I don't know of too many EMS agencies that "aggressively" pursue media attention. Then EMS workers wonder why the only mention of them in that cardiac arrest save they had last week is typically the last line of the article... "patient was transported to the hospital by ambulance workers"... meanwhile the Police or Fire Department look like the heroes in the article. Because they have PIO's who disseminate this information, and who are they trying to make look good? Their agency.

I think that's just a start. The communities have to start realizing that we are not the "ambulance drivers" of the 1960's anymore... now EMS providers in some parts of the county are serving as speciality medics, trained beyond the scope of normal EMS practice... but does the community know that? No, they don't. There was a nice article in the Daily News a while back about FDNY's new rescue medics.. huge page article.. it brings a lot of positive attention to the field, and makes the public see that we're not just a glorified taxi.

FYI there is a Westchester Coutny Association of Paramedics... it was started many many years ago, incorporated and everything, and it never went anywhere. I thought a few years ago about starting it up again, but regretfully never did. I actually just returned all the paperwork to it's rightful owner, but can get it back at anytime. If anyone is interested in such a venture PM me.

Obviously we all know that there is definetly no parity between EMS and Police/Fire. What I don't understand is why locally we aren't doing anything about it. No one is going to lobby for us, except for us. No one is going to raise public awareness when it comes to EMS other than EMS providers. Even the "higher ups" around here barely do anything for us.

I can't help but laugh everytime I see a paramedic sitting on a couch at work complaining about how much EMS sucks because the FD and PD make more, have a pension, retirement, decent benefits, etc. God forbid they get off their lazy a** and do something to promote the field, increase public awareness, lobby local politicians for more funding, training, and recognition.

I always tell medics I still work with, I have a lot more pride being a medic than I do a police officer....

I actually think it shows alot. Its his last meal as a free man, he knows he is guilty and is going away. Wouldn't you like to have a nice meal or something before you turn yourself in the morning.  Yes it also must have been a slow news day.

←

Are you kidding me? Last meal as a free man? He knows he's guilty and going away? Indictment is not a presumption of guilt... this officer went out for dinner. Whether it was a four dollar dinner, or a 4,000 dollar dinner, it doesn't matter. The news made it sound as if he was out there dancing on Sean Bell's grave chugging bottles of Cristal throwing hundred dollar bills to everyone that passed.

Everyone knows that it is very clear that EMS has issues of parity of law enforcement and firefighting, and a part of the problem starts right with us, EMS providers!

First, there is no unity amongst EMS providers in this county (Westchester). Firefighters look at eachother as "brother firefighters", law enforcement officers look at eachother as "brother police officers" (don't mean to offend any females reading this board). There is no strong unity, or brotherhood (err, womanhood), in EMS, there is no unity to stand up and fight for our rights as EMS workers, rights to better pay, better training, a better EMS system for us and for our communities. When an issue arises with a police department or fire department, whether it's pay or staffing levels, or whatever it may be, a representative is there on TV or in the newspaper making the public aware of these issues. Who's making the public aware of the issues at hand for us? How much of the general public is aware of the training, commitment, continual training, knowledge, or capabilities of EMS providers in this county? Who's our voice, our representative?

Next, how many times have you seen a crew of a commercial EMS agency getting out of their ambulance, hats on backwards, shirts untucked, pizza stains on their jacket. Not to knock volunteers, because volunteering was how I began my interest in EMS and public safety, but volunteers showing up on jobs in shorts and hawaiian luau shirts like they just came from a beach resort? How are we supposed to be seen as professionals when we don't look professional in the public's eye? I know one agency who allows their members to wear jeans and sneakers with a duty shirt when they're riding... when have you ever seen a uniformed police officer on routine patrol wearing jeans with a uniform shirt and a gunbelt?

To touch on a little something I brought up before... as EMS professionals, how many times have you opened up the newspaper and read an article on how "Police saves man's life doing CPR", only to find the last line to read, "and the patient was transported by paramedics to the hospital". I know it burns me as a paramedic to read that. Knowing the hard work that I put in to intubate, defibrillate, medicate, and all sortsa other ate's to the patient to stabilize them and get them to the hospital alive. Police departments and Fire departments have people who are public information officers, someone who releases stories like this to the media. So, who's our public information officer? Who's the one showing the media how crucial EMS providers are and how many lives we're responsible for saving EACH DAY.

To wrap up my little tangent here, I lastly place my blame on the higher ups in this county... those that have the power to make a difference, those that have the political connections, the media connections, and the ability to promote EMS, to make the public realize what a crucial, and necessary service it is that we provide. In my eyes, we have been failed by them. Look at the Westchester County DES website. Look at how many different training classes there are available to firefighters. What's available to EMS? NOTHING! Absolutely nothing. They post the EMT classes across the county, and that's it. Why isn't our glorious EMS division offering PHTLS, PALS, NALS, ACLS, WMD, AHLS, Rope Rescue courses for EMS providers, Rescue Technician Training to allow EMS providers to better access patients in austere environments? Right now if I want to take ACLS or PALS or PHTLS, I have to shell the money out of my own pocket. The DES's claim to fame was the mutual aid agreement. Big deal. What's the point of a mutual aid agreement when you have to get five steps into it to get a bus for an unresponsive. I'm sorry to say it, but even the "EMS BBQ" at Rye Playland is a joke. That's the most news coverage we get all year, 2 minutes on news 12 about how the "ambulance drivers" are getting together at Playland for a barbecue. When there is no uniformity and leadership at the top, how do you expect the troops to fall in and follow suit?

We have failed ourselves here, and failed ourselves miserably. We can't expect the public and municipalities to understand and realize what a crucial service we provide if we don't stand together, as a professional and unified front. When we look professional, sound professional (and educated for that matter), and act professional, then we will be treated how we want to be... like PROFESSIONALS! Until then, we will continue to be stuck, in the eyes of the public and the media, as just a bunch of ambulance drivers.