PC414

Forty-nine years ago today was the "day the music died" in Clear Lake, Iowa when Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and J.P. "Big Bopper" Richardson died in the crash of a Beechcraft Bonanza just minutes after take-off (an event which also took the life of pilot Roger Peterson).

Don McLean's song, "American Pie," has been floating around ALMOST as long as many of us have. One could reasonably say the tune has been woven into the fabric of our lives since its initial release in 1971, although I suspect there are many who are unaware of the story it tells.

"But something touched me deep inside,

The day the music died.

So, bye bye Miss American Pie,

Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry

Them good ole boys were drinkin' whiskey and rye

Singing 'This'll be the day that I die.'"

It's funny, isn't it, how we mark the days of our lives with such things?

Bob

Twenty-one year olds are in charge of a lot of things in life. At 21 - a long time ago for me - I was a buck sergeant in the Air Force and resposnbile for the supervision of a crew. I knew a significant number of 18, 19 and 20 year old men and women at the time charged with the security of nuclear weapons. They could be trusted with live ammunition and the ability to use deadly force if needed. My father was a 1st lieutenant in the US Army Corps of Engineers commanding a platoon of roughly forty men in combat during 1943 at the age of 23. It isn't all that strange for relatively young people to be charged with fairly heavy responsibility.

I'm old(er) now. Been in charge of some people over the years and had some "kids" tell me what to do on various jobs, too. No problem as far as I can remember.

Maybe I just don't remember 'cause I'm old(er), though.

Personally, I vote for the "kid." If he meets the qualifications of the department and enjoys the support of his subordinates, more power to him.

Bob

"VTL 1226. Control of steering mechanism. No person shall operate a motor

vehicle without having at least one hand or, in the case of a physically

handicapped person, at least one prosthetic device or aid on the

steering mechanism at all times when the motor vehicle is in motion."

Additionally, DMV still teaches use of hand signals, three of which are illustrated in the on-line Manual. That knowledge presupposes, at least in theory, that one hand will have to be off the wheel.

I personally doubt that there will be any tickets issued for "one-handed operation." I also have no doubt that any patrol officer who wanted could find SOMETHING to write-up for most drivers, if they were of that mindset.

As always, drive carefully and with purpose.

Bob

So ... just a (probably unpopular) thought ...

Anybody else think it's kinda' silly to let the Grand Jury actually decide if there is sufficient evidence to indict and then a jury of his peers to determine guilt (within the context of the U.S. and New York State Constitutions) BEFORE we introduce the "dam pedofile" [sic] to "bubba?"

All that "due process" crap probably isn't very important anyway, is it, if you're REALLY a "Law and Order" kinda' guy (or gal)?

HOLY COW!

Bob

I never participated much in parades but I sure watched a lot of 'em.

Ole, your excellent post took me back DECADES to Boxford, Massachusetts and Harrison, Maine (and a lot of places in between) and the bright-eyed kid I used to be.

Thank you for capturing the heart and motive of many who march.

Bob

Yes, there is real, formal training.

http://www.icisf.org

As an aside, Dutchess has their own excellent critical incident response team.

Bob

After all this, the only question my feeble, old mind can think of is "Where are you, Tony Baretta?"

Times change, huh?

Or, sadly, maybe they don't ...

I appreciate the warm wishes. It has been a long and (often) trying time since I finished my last C-line on February 11th. As my wife occasionally reminds me, "Growin' old ain't for wimps."

My return to the office is delayed until Friday the 18th per "doctor's orders" but I expect to be there bright and early for the B-line on that date.

I look forward to working again with good friends, both in the office and in the field.

Bob

Snopes.com indicates the story is true; however, it goes back to January, 1996.

"The picture with the water falls by inn at the falls is not an actual dam."

Just as a matter of interest and safety (boaters, fishermen AND responders), this structure is, in fact, something called a "low head dam." They can be deadly - not just to unwary civilians inadvertently swept over them but to rescuers as well.

A Google search including the words "low head dam" and "rescuer death" or "danger" can offer some intense and educational reading, along with video and pictures.

PC414

EDITED TO ADD URL:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/education_saf...ningmachine.pdf

Info "straight from the horse's mouth" at www.sperryrail.com. While more employment-oriented, the web page also gives an overview of the company mission and methodology.

If you're interested in specific SRS track vehicles, check out www.krunk.org/~joeshaw/pics/sperry

Bob

PC414

PutPut,

Not sure what's up with this thread. Absolutely crappy call and KUDOS to Peter (first) and others in the field who did an outstanding job under horrible circumstances. Excellent job and well done.

If I gave you the impression that anyone is looking to use call volume as some kind of "excuse," I apologize. Nothing could be further from the truth. My first posting in this thread was meant simply as a statement of fact - nothing more. Those facts impacted events on the beach that night.

My personal goal is to do the best job I can in any given set of circumstances. I don't look for the "pat on the back," although I certainly appreciate those occasions when someone offers a rare compliment.

Can you offer a specific set of suggestions to "do better?" And I mean that sincerely - not looking to pick a fight or be antagonistic or defensive. I wish people didn't die on my watch. I actually pray toward that end before I leave for the office - every single time I come in. Sadly, it happens - even when I and those in the field put forth our very best efforts.

"The 911 operators did there (sic) jobs and I'm sure it was a good job by them"

"There was a set of circumstances that caused this to happen in a remote area and ... (it) ...could have happened anywhere"

"Call volume was high"

You still go on to say that you're "disgusted," though, and want improvments made.

How could I have done better, in your opinion? Not the nameless, faceless 911 Center, but me - one of the dispatchers handling this call and a number of others (at least one equally serious that resulted in a "save") at the same time that night?

Now, I can't talk specifics, as I'm sure you know. I'm not interested in anything here but how I can improve as a 911 dispatcher. I probably won't even offer any further reply to this thread except to say "Thank You" for any specific thoughts you might offer.

For Peter (if you're reading this), and all the other rescuers in the field who made a great save - thank you!

PC414

Only comment, between 18:40 and 19:12, Brewster Fire & Ambulance operating at several calls in and out of district, Carmel Fire and Ambulance operating at multiple calls, Lake Carmel and Patterson dispatched multiple calls, Mahopac Falls Fire, Ambulance and Dive team, mutual aid ambulance and medic from out of County, Cold Spring fire operating, Garrison Fire operating, Mahopac ambulance operating w/Carmel, Putnam Lake Fire and Ambulance operating:

3 PIAAs, 2 PDAAs, several 911 hang-ups, Smoke investigation/possible structure for Cold Spring, Smoke investigation/unknown type fire (possible dock) for Garrison, Drowning X2 in Putnam Lake.

During the time-frame noted: 33 emergency calls received 911 lines direct and/or transfers from other agencies, multiple dispatches for almost every agency noted, at least 3 landline call-ins for each ambulance for crews, regular administrative and, of course, radio traffic for every call dispatched, CPR instructions given to two most coherent cell callers for 2 drowning victims during early operation, all four County medics operating at various calls.

Will add nothing else but this basic information on call volume.

PC414

Recognizing the overall statistical insignifigance of "a survival rate of 0.5 per cent," I still wouldn't mind someone tryin' to see if I could "make the cut," were I in this position. Assuming, of course, the crew had the time and nothing much better going on back at the house ...

"If the test were applied, it would reduce by about two-thirds the number of patients taken to the hospital, the researchers said."

Well, what can one say? It's a good thing good we're gonna' cut down on the crisis in emergency healthcare by addressing this patient issue instead of the glut of people who clog the ED for coughs, colds, aches and pains and other assorted minor ailments.

Maybe I misread the article. Seems like STAT123 gives it the correct "good ol' college try" with "my current protocols allow me to terminate after 20 minutes of BCLS and or ACLS. So, if we don't get 'em back after 20 minutes, its over. OVER. You bring the family in and explain the situation, and then TERMINATE."

That's all I'd hope for, personally. Article on the study , to me, seemed to not give any "wiggle room" - even 20 minutes worth - which might make a difference to the "statistically insignificant" 0.5 percent.

Any thoughts?

PC414

"I don't see a 9 yom w/a broken arm as a alpha or bravo level call. I see a child in pain in need of care in a reasonable amount of time."

Well said, Tanker, throughout.

Thanks.

PC414

Well, a couple of things, this hot afternoon ...

Tanker, not sure if I'm misreading or something but no "bubble to burst" for me. Not disputing that you've ridden with a medic on an Alpha level call in the past (or even the reason Putnam is sending them on Bravos now). Just information in my original post and not commentary or editorial at all. The fact is, though, that since instituting the EMD program not quite a year ago, we do not send medics on Alpha level calls - even when they can't be staffed. We just keep going mutual aid until they are covered by a BLS crew. Possible exceptions to that based on a unique experience? Sure, or I'd so imagine but there is a STRONG emphasis on protecting the tiered-response in dispatch that comes from the top down.

I also got quoted for an awful lot that I didn't actually say or write but that may just be a function of the "Reply" button, I don't know.

If I came across in my post as disparaging or something, I apologize. Just recounting the things I have to practice four days out of every six for at least eight hours a day. I have no personal vested interest in the way agencies are dispatched, respond or anything else. I do what the bosses tell me to the best of my ability and adapt as new directives come down.

Generally speaking, the "line-up" that Skooter92 detailed is accurate, I think. My comments about the "unknown" refer specifically to the questions raised earlier about mutual aid dispatches after 5 minutes, not to the specific number of medics and so forth on duty in the County.

Again, if anything I've added to the conversation has rubbed anyone the wrong way, feel free to PM (or continue to discuss same here). That was certainly not my intention.

PC414

Good questions

I'd just be guessing as there has been nothing passed on through the office at this (still) early stage. I would suspect that the article may not be 100% accurate (constraints of space/editing, misunderstanding/misinterperetation by the reporter, etc.), at least based on logical questions such as you raise.

Gonna' be lots of speculation for a while. Sorry I know of nothing concrete to help.

PC414

I don't know much to add, Alpha - seemed like an excellent summary to me! Maybe I'd add that most calls involving some kind of "unknown status" are "Bravo."

An interesting aside is that, as developed, the Bravo protocol does NOT include ALS. It was originally meant to be a "hot" BLS only response. Putnam County, when implementing EMD, decided it would be better to change the Bravo dispatch to include ALS. No idea how common that is.

As practiced in Putnam: Alpha level - BLS only. All others - ALS sent on original dispatch. Practically speaking, response modes are addressed by local agencies and not by the County. No one here monitors lights and sirens for Alpha level (or whatever). The designators give some sense of "seriousness," although, frankly, I don't believe that is/was the intent as developed. It may be a misconception on my part, but Alpha level calls don't seem to generate the quick call-ins an Echo level call usually does. Alpha level isn't BS though - could include broken bone, amputation (non-dangerous body area, of course), etc.

As written/developed ("cold" and "hot" response are terms used in protocol - not really defined but assumed, by me anyway, to indicate use of lights, siren and level of urgency).

Alpha - BLS "cold" response

Bravo - BLS "hot" response

Charlie - BLS "cold"/ALS "cold" response

Delta & Echo - BLS "hot"/ALS "hot" response.

I'm about 99.9% certain (but too lazy right now to either check online or in the textbook), that the protocols were originally developed (Salt Lake City) to determine an "appropriate level of response" to limit liability issues. Like, "Why were you going lights and siren and hit the other car for a dislocated pinky?"

It works but it sure ain't perfect.

Hmmm ... guess I added more than I thought ...

PC414

http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article.../607260359/1017

PC414

"How often have any of you seen the E.D. let family members into the room when they are treating the patient?"

While I don't disagree with the principle noted, to specifically answer your question about the E.D., my experience has been FAR different (Poughkeepsie, NY and Greenfield, MA hospitals). In raising two boys to ages 23 and 19 (and a wife in need a couple of times, too), I was allowed in the E.D. with family members during treatment for three broken bones, a ruptured eardrum, (ruptured) etopic pregnancy (including insertion of catheter and IV) but obviously not surgery following ... glass removal, suture and bone-setting following a fairly serious PIAA which involved loss of consciousness and extrication; and a host of minor ailments, too... During an almost 20 year career in ministry, it frankly wasn't that uncommon (again, Poughkeepsie area hospitals) to allow me to remain with a congregant, either if family wasn't present or they requested same. Clearly NOT (and never) a situation involving recusitation but still a regular presence during E.D. treatment.

I never thought it was unusual. It generally helped at the time, too.

Just my experience and, again, not arguing with the sentiment expressed - especially in the back of an ambulance. Just a couple of "cents."

PC414

Holy cow ...

PC414

"Where and by whom?," he asked with skepticism.

PC414

Well said, WCDES636, at least from my perspective.

PC414

So, I've got a question. Be patient, if you can, with some loose definitions. Teach me ... don't "burn" me

From my limited perspective (volunteer FF w/20+ years experience, EMS experience limited to driving the ambulance and basic first aid/CPR a couple of times; Advanced EMD 9-1-1 dispatcher), it appears that EMS is sort of the "bastard step-son" of emergency services. PD is certainly a municipally-supported branch and in most ways, I think, fire suppression is, too (even at the volunteer level - although "subscription services" and Scottsdale, AZ(?) may be notable exceptions). Of the three "branches," isn't EMS most generally dependent on private services and lacks most some kind of tax-based support (again, with some exceptions - most notably with FD provided EMS)?

My question is simple. Why the argument over which is best given the current system (i.e, private services versus FD-based)? When I dream of an "ideal" municipally-based EMS system, I don't personally think of FD-based ALS but of a separate, equally-funded system wherein Police, Fire and EMS all have the needed tax dollars to provide the very best and same quality emergency services to the residents of a community.

This is NOT to imply that private medics and EMTS don't or can't. Don't read that into my poorly-worded essay here 'cause nothing is further from my mind (or the truth). I just don't get why the history/tradition of emergency services gives tax dollars for needed services like PD and Fire, while letting EMS go without.

This is not a "vollie-vs. paid" issue (see paragraph 2, above). The people of my volunteer Fire District contribute a tax which goes toward fire protection, approve bonds when new engines are needed, etc. Their taxes help fund both a County Sheriff's Office and the New York State Police. Why is the BLS ambulance replaced by fund raisers and donations? Why is ALS dependent upon who can be hired by a private agency which constantly must struggle between legitimate profit for the principals, the need to invest in personnel and equipment, etc.?

I personally suspect EMS got "thrown" to the FD not to generate call volume but because some "genius" who doesn't understand the issues said, "Hey, let's make/give these firefighters something to do between runs 'cause we're paying 'em anyway to just sit around between fires."

While I don't have figures available to quote exactly, my understanding is that the good people of Putnam County pay more for garbage pick-up then they actually would see as an increase in taxes if the County were to fund a viable, County-based ALS system for the residents.

Because my involvement with EMS is more peripheral, I may not understand the issues well. Can someone explain to me what it would take for EMS to achieve some kind of better parity with police and fire in a municipally-supported sense?

Thanks!

PC414

I'm currently stuck in Essex County, MA - not many miles south of the NH border. Last report I saw on NENC for Topsfield (town next door) was 11.95 inches of rain with up to three more expected by Noon on Tuesday.

This has been an amazing experience. Helped fill some sandbags with local FD for the top of an earthen dam about to be breached - fortunately within walking distance and something to do 'cause we ain't driving back to Dutchess for a day or two yet with dozens of local roads still flooded.

PC414