chris

Very narrow hose bed esspecially for 5in. hose,

Very narrow hosebeds, does WPFD run 5" supply hose?

The dividers can move.

Why does White Plains spec out conventional cabs and chassis for thier engine companies? Is it a cost saving measure?

I was also curious about this? Some places like it because the crew is not near the noise of the engine and sirens, a hearing loss thing.

Front suctions have a number of disadvantages:

Added cost(in the $40,000 range)

Added maintenance (we had 4 rigs with them, 3 cracked from there own weight, 1 was damaged in an MVA and when we found out the cost to repair, it was removed.

High Friction loss - with all the turns it is generally equal to 100' of hose to travel 15 feet. This reduces the amount of water that can be pumped. When we had a 6" front suction on my engine we maxed at 1,150 gpm. a 6" steamer can do 1,500 - 2,000 gpm.

In some designs it increases the turning radius

The best one is many MPO's tend to nose the engine into the hydrant when they have it. This can push the tail end out into the street. At a MA call about 2 years ago I got a great pic of an engine doing just that and cutting off the tower ladder that was now 500 feet from the fire building.

The way we keep the MPO safe from traffic is to bring the line in on the right (or left if needed) steamer connection.

Advantages around my neck of the woods would be for drafting from different bodies of water, including pond's from a tanker ( and yes we know some of you are not sure what a tanker might be ). For this ( in alot of cases ) you almost have to have a front suction. Croton has one engine without it and cannot be sent out of town on mutual aid when a drafting site is to be set up, because you can't guarentee the rig can position where its needed to draft.

Train driver didn't see the ( keep back 200 ft ) sign.

What a ridiculous motto. Makes no sense according to the definition. I think Ive seen this also on a "Volly" chief car once.

How did you see this ? Were you at a parade watching the big firetrucks.

It looks nice I just wonder how it will handle.

What makes you ask about the way it will handle ?

If the medic asked the kid to do this, then it wasn't unauthorized..

Due to semantics or lack of detailed questioning we maybe aren't talking about the same "whole picture" accountability that you and Barry note. Without a doubt, the tags, which are inanimate objects do not make for a system, it takes training, personal responsibility, discipline and leadership for true accountability to be realized.

A few of us have shown the equipment and basic premise of our accountability systems. It should go without saying, though I know full well it isn't across the board, that knowing where your personnel are is a huge part of actual accountability. Freelancing is not the fault of an accountability system, not knowing who's assigned to what task is not a failure of the accountability system, they're both failures of the incident command system.

Please forgive the lack of 100% buy in to NIMS for all incidents. The use of ICS is automatic on every incident and has been long before NIMS. Regardless of who is responsible for resources at a Type III or greater incident, 98% of our runs do not involve a planning section, so the RUL will not be specifically designated. But as with any ICS/NIMS system, the structure is modular and based on span of control, will grow as needed with those positions needed filled. I doubt any of us are really thinking the RUL in the planning section will every be directly responsible for know who is in what corner of a building at any moment. A safety officer or call him, accountability officer will. As with anything in ICS, if it falls under your area of responsibility and you don't delegate it, it's yours.

As for Barry's scenario: if we overlay the normal ICS structure and responsibilities onto a well implemented tag system, and ensure the dept has instilled discipline at all levels, then you can have a decent total accountability system. We don't rely on tags to keep track of where people are, this is the function of each company officer, assigned sector officers (now group/division)and the IC. There are electronic systems that provide more information, but we still will need a back-up to the electronics as we see failures every day that have life altering implications (see Toyota) I've yet to see an electronic solution to freelancing or ensuring members follow the rules, though since I'm going out to dig up my dog's underground fence for yet another repair, I'm starting to hatch an idea! PASS?PAR systems with elecrtic behavior modification!

Someone call OSHA and NFPA this could work..

The major problem with accountability is the myriad of systems in use throughout the US. Until the fire service comes with one standard system, we're just blowing smoke. All you need is a little mutual aid that exceeds your "planning zone" (for want of a better term) and the accounting system changes. It's worse by far than the 'Ten signal confusion'...my green tag is your red tag is his blue tag. I've also witnessed company officers walk up to an unmanned IC board, chuck a fistful of tags on the table and walk off to freelance. That guy believed he was accounted for.

The NIMS powers that be are the ones that have to set the standard. That standard has to address all the questions and scenarios described in this thread by guys like Barrry Nechis and Bob Benz. It does no good to post 'here's my system' because it is not OUR system...your...mine...everybody's, from Maine to Hawaii.

As far as who is the accountability officer goes, NIMS addresses this already. It is the responsibility of the IC. He can do it himself for small incidents (with less than 7 things to think about, if you remember what span-of-control is about). If the IC wants to put the fire out instead of losing sight of the overall picture by counting heads, he appoints a person to do the task. Under ICS, that person is already addressed. it is the Resource unit leader or RUL (found under the PLANNING section in your model ICS chart). IT IS NEVER NEVER THE SAFETY OFFICER!!!

An unmanned IC board is the start of all the problems ( sometimes just the opposite ) it starts from the top either way . And no disrespect to Bobby or Barry but like you said " here's mine and its not yours " BUT if we unify command it should work better, I dont have to worry about yours your people do. You are good, span of control at 7, I always thought 5, but I just might be slow and nobody told me yet !

Edit due to a friend calling and saying I'm slow..

couple of things i have to rebutt,

1. Most of the time routine, is what gets things accomplished on the fire ground. If shooting from the hip becomes the norm, then anything anyone does can be conscrued as the right thing to do.

2. Isn't thinking outside the box saying/asking "WHY"?

3. And I agree there are very few "always" and "nevers"

4. I will take your advise and watch out for the paper cuts and possible amputation as i sit behind my desk and type this.

#1 I agree with you, but there has to be a leash on routine. Shooting from the hip shouldn't be the norm.

#2 Yes, but there is always another "why" ready and waiting. And don't get me wrong when the norm isn't, then you think outside of the box.

#4 You can never be to careful.

Chris, I'm missing your point. Are you saying that the plausible scenarios posed by bnechis are "what if's" that take the discussion to an illogical conclusion? I don't think so. I think we have paper plans that are nothing more than that - paper. There are many benefits to a tag system but only as a part of a greater overall accountability and resource management system.

If you get a mayday from within a burning structure and are holding a ring full of tags, what do you do? What does that ring full of tags tell you?

O.K. when the mayday hits, the fast should be getting ready to make entry as they see fit, the accountability officer ( we try to use one of our deputy chiefs so the safety officer is free to do his 360's ) should be getting ready to conduct a PAR by handing out tags to the crews who exit the bldg , the IC and the fast liasion should be monitoring the radio channels for further radio communications with the mayday at the command post. As the par is being conducted the fast will be doing there proactive thing but depending on the scenario not just running in like nuts. When the PAR is complete ( the tags are handed out and there are none left ) or someone is not acounted for because you still have a tag or two the fast operation will go into full swing. ( I guess the ring of tags if done properly will tell you who is in the house).

Someone else must have been in the class's I was at when I was told to think outside of the box, to shoot from the hip sometimes, not everything is black and white. The table tops and what ifs can never end if any one person doesn't want them to, there are a never ending amout of wrenches to throw into a conversation. Its kind of like a kid just always saying "WHY". Routine is no longer acceptable to the fire service if you cannot improvise hang up your gear and get a desk job. But be careful you could get a paper cut then maybe an infection then maybe we will need to amputate then maybe ???????????????????????????????

BFD1054 - as far as the cat thing see post's #3,5,13 and as far as the tree comment it is in another thread under new Buchanan ruscue in local forums. Hope this helps..

Wait...we're getting a new Rescue ?

No your getting a cat , he comes with a bag , and you might have a money tree you don't know about ?

We use a two tag system, one goes with the rig you are with, the other goes to an accountability officer near the entry point of the incident. The one on the rig stays on the rig until you go home, the other should be handed back to you when you complete and then leave the task you were assigned to, and then you wait for another job to do, and your tag goes to the new designation. And the accountability officer has a dry erase board with your tag on a ring with the rest of your team on it, so he can keep track of what your task is, this will help to know where you should be. Pretty sure our board has 8 rings for different jobs. Then the command post is a different ball game.

Yankees?!? The last picture I believe is Metz showing off how their turntable leveling system works.

Go Sox!

Yes it was. Metz - Mets . sorry just a little spring training fever I guess. And it didn't even look level so its broke..

Its all minor, we are all human.

More good pics.

You took one part of my comment, adjusted it to serve your opportunity to criticize my comment and tried to make it look as though I am 100% against purchasing new equipment. I do and have paid taxes for some time. Part of that money is paid to the Buchanan FD by the village. And as it was years ago when some members thought it prudent to request adding a ladder truck to the fleet, it was brought to the village board meetings and open to public discussion. I said I can see both sides of the argument, replacement of a 35 year old piece of equipment may be necessary. I also support the fact that the employees of the village need a new contract. The only reason I cited the priority being the contracts of workers is that both Montrose and Peekskill have Rescue apparatus and the current piece is still in service. I have done nothing but support the fire department my entire life as a village resident, whether donating monies, buying raffle tickets, providing pictures that I have taken in my own personal time, etc. I am not a member of the fire department but did volunteer in my community for years. Now I have my own priorities and work responsibilities that make it virtually impossible for me to commit to being a member. As well, I have to say, I haven't been asked either. And I know that manpower to calls is a serious issue in our community. This is a public website, you should be careful saying that the village of Buchanan and its residents don't foot the bill, cause ultimately they do. They do when they pay their taxes, and they do when they donate money, and the do when they buy raffle tickets. Money to buy new appartus and equipment doesn't grow on a tree behind the firehouse.

He's right there's no tree I just checked.

If you want a job go for it, don't let anything get in your way. You need to be eager - call there, go there, what ever it takes.

Now- Can you fix the header to read sPyshots instead of sOyshots? LOL

So excited to post the pics spelling doesn't matter.

The money was raised from selling bread, and charging per bottle for a refill with the cascade.

Excellent can't wait to see it done.

Here's where the Metz tends to miss the mark from an american firefighting standpoint. The waterway runs up he inside of the already narrow ladder, the bucket doesn't have a gun such that we are used to on most towers, I think it attaches below the bucket through the rungs? So you do not have the same control as you would from the bucket. The bucket is exactly like a shopping cart, very small and getting one victim in with two firefighters in the bucket would be about max. So you take the bucket off to perform "continuous rescue" down the stick, but the side rails are short and the ladder is narrow and anyone not used to climbing an aerial might take exception to this. It is fast to set up and the aerial can be on the ground and back up like no other aerial device I've seen.

Here's a couple of pics from the 2008 NE Fire Chief's Show

Thanks, that is a good view of how narrow and short the side rails are, or maybee how much of an engine guy I really am. That last pic with the rig on the angle looks odd. I still like the yankees better....

I think if L4 is only a 75 footer, they may not have gained all that much. When taking into account both height and setback, aerial length gets shortened up quickly. Trust me, you can't imagine how many times I had to school citizens and sadly a few firefighters, on the Pythagoreum Theorem when we were speccing our TL. "But we don't have any 95 foot tall buildings?"

Funny and sad all at the same time.

If my "Google-Foo" and HS geometry doesn't fail me, it looks like a 95-100 aerial anywhere on the street beyond "the tree" would have allowed for access to the peak of the roof. I know it seems easy to say on the computer from miles away, but I like to see a large empty spot where a ladder should be regardless if you own one or have one on your first due assignment. It's just good practice to always be thinking "I need to leave room for a ladder". So, not to pick apart any one, we should all look at the pictures and think could this happen to us if our first due ladder was OOS or delayed? I know one of our crews blocked out a mutual aid ladder just last week, while ours was OOS, excrement happens. I also know it will not happen again on that shift!

And I agree a TL on late roofs would be a real benefit. I'm not a big fan of venting from a stick as I rarely see a decent hole unless the pitch allows the roofman to be on the surface itself. Was this roof fully sheathed or skip sheathed?

I agree with you, if they were beyond the tree they probably could have stuck the roof much higher, to bad it couldn't make it for whatever reason.