16fire5

Major Flood =Water Leak

Major Fire = 10-22

The brothers never appreciated the job the boro offices did decoding the BS until now. The concept of the boro offices where you still have professionals that care about the job they do and have a connection to the guys in the field will be lost if all this goes through. The UCT is someone who looked for any civil service job and is there for a paycheck and nothing more. Even when someone like this got hired as a FAD the culture of our offices and the fact we still have FSDs and SFADs that care about the job resulted in a standard or greater expectations than you seem to get from the other entities. If you don't believe me listen to the PD radio for 5 minutes.

We need a little cheat sheet on the stuff you get on the ticket. Even the "Initial Entry" thing stills screws the guys up because they think they are going to force entry for EMS not this was the dispatchers initial entry.

JBE great point about PD and the marks they take. They sit and watch us take people out of elevators as of late, I wonder what mark they are taking for that. I will pass the 10-80 on to the chiefs I work with, really no extra trouble for anyone involved. I always make it a point to take the Haz-Mat mark on the NYFIRS if applicable.

Being thats my wife's job!!!!! She chose the Craftsman!!!!!

I love it.

I have a Murray push behind with a briggs and stratton gotta be circa 1985 and hopefully it will give me yet another year.

I will start by saying I read the article and didn't see the speech. I think this is a good discussion. I think we may still be too aggressive as opposed to over safe. The risk management comment above is dead on. I think too many times our tactics don't match the risk. Too many departments or members want to be aggressive just for the sake of saying their aggressive but aggressive is only good when needed or called for. Aggressive is good for the engine making the push but dumb for the search when there is little reason to believe someone is trapped. Operating above the fire without a hoseline is a very dangerous tactic a good argument could be made it should be reserved for known life hazards (you’re told someone is inside) not for standard search.

Here's what could be construed as safety or well intentioned things possibly having adverse effects.

1. Does our full encapsulation lead to more deaths from heart attacks than the burns they prevented? We go to fewer and fewer fires and still kill the same number of firefighters.

2. Is waiting outside a fire to get a proper number of firefighters (a minimum of 4) to conduct interior operations and letting the fire grow unchecked put us in greater danger once the attack is begun because the room and contents fire is now a structure fire? I don't know about you but between firehouse.com and the secret list I'm hearing about a lot of firefighters falling through floors weakened by fire.

I'm sure there's more and even for these two very good cases can be made for both sides and I don't think either is cut and dry. No one would be well served by going back to raincoats to fight fires but gear that keeps us cooler and a mechanism to monitor the heat of the surrounding environment would undoubtedly save lives. For the staffing argument no one thinks two person engines are effective but for many places 3 person engines are the norm (I know they are in Newburgh, and probably Westchester). Is stretching a line by a 3 person engine and putting out the fire a better option than waiting for second due? That one I really don't know because I'm lucky to work with proper staffing. If this is off topic I apologize.

There is a difference between this

and this

Jeans and work boots with these yellow shirts would do the trick. Here's how you enforce it come properly atired or don't get on the apparatus.

More importantly how many departments do wildland training (Red Card)? Or chain saw training?

Just like realizing conditions in structrual firefighting so you don't have to bail out a window the same holds true for wildland. Just as much as you see improper atire at brush fires you see bad strategy and tactics. Why are people in the middle of the burn area cutting down trees or waiting for a tree to fall on them? Worry about the snags that will fall across your break there is little reason to be in the middle of the burn area although it is a good place to escape extending fire.

A previous poster touched on this but that NFPA standard was written for wildland firefighting meaning out west mainly. New York does not see crown fire at brush fires here. For the most part fires here are cover fire and ground fire. The chance of being over run is almost nil. Wearing long sleve cotton shirts, jeans and work boots in combination with gloves goggles and helmet are adequete protection. That is what the NYS forest rangers are wearing. I'm sure you pureist are not on board but look at it from a risk management standpoint. I would venture to guess almost all firefighter deaths in NYS at brush fires were the result of heart attacks. Wearing the safe atire above reduces heat stress and the risk of heart attack. By all means the brothers in California need that NFPA ensamble but it is a bit overkill here.

Great looking rig and nobody thought to take care of the halligans? One of them is all rusted the other still has the paint on it. Who is the proby? The new guys need to be taught to take care of the tools and have pride in their equipment.

I don't believe they are laws per say they are opinions of the Attorney General or Comptroller. It is a conflict of interest for a career firefighter of a district to be a fire commisionser but a volunteer firefighter in allowed to be a commisioner in the district. Some will say this is an apples to oranges comparison but I completely disagree. The reasoning behind the opinion the career firefighter can't be a commisioner is because he is paying himself or being his own boss. I would argue that if the volunteers recieve LOSAP, tax breaks, or whatever other types of compensation the same should hold true for the commisioners.

RIP Brothers

I've seen ESU with a line stretched off the hydrant for the RMP on fire. What really wasn't pretty was half a dozzen ESU officers inability to open the hood.

Rescue Jacks might be an alternative because they address many of the situations low pressure high lift were/are used for. Rescue jacks would undoubtedly have a longer life span too.

Adding to the previous post apparatus placement is important. Aside from getting a tower ladder in front (recon, rescue, highpoint) get the rest of the apparatus stagged. Leave the best spots for the USAR resources so they don't have to carry their equipment 1/2 a mile and they can set up their cutting station real close. Take hydrants out of the block, at one of the crane collapses last year the collapse broke the water main anyway.

Good luck stay safe.

I never wear my ring at work.

I think there is some indirect proof that members being completly encapsulated in PPE has led to fatalities and severe burn injuries. Members have found themselves deep in a bldg and been caught in a flashover they never saw coming. Am I saying that having the hood down would have made a difference, who knows, but if they began to feel a great deal of heat and their ears began to tingle maybe they would of reacted. I personally don my hood and usually keep it in the down position when working in the ladder company. I feel I can quage conditions as I conduct my search and attempt to locate the seat of the fire. Sometimes conditions are such that the only sense we can rely on is the degree of heat coming from a direction of travel (fire proof bldgs for ex.) Personal preference I quess but I have never had a major issue. When working in an engine company operating the line the hood is up and the flaps are down to protect against the steam. I am not debating the effectivness of our PPE, but I feel in some instances its too good and can get guys in trouble, especially newer guys who lack the ability to read conditions on the fireground. The gear makes them feel invinsible and they march into situations, unknowingly at times, completly encapsulated and oblivious to their surroundings.

Was looking for the words but you hit it pretty well. There is a difference between a truck boss keeping his hood down to make the call to back out and an engine. The engine must wear their hoods period they may be called on to hold fire and will operate in as close a proximity to the fire as anyone. I agree with reading smoke and the TIC but there are some major flaws to the arguement. First of all most good jobs have no visibility and it's impossible to see something like rollover. The TIC is an awsome tool but it is not the miracle cure as some think. It shows the heat of objects and seeing the heat waves at upper levels is not always easy and maybe impossible depending on the camera but it does help in fireproof buildings. Searching without/before the line and having your hood up you can easily crawl past the fire but with it arround my neck makes it a lot harder to miss.

but you have guys with less then 10 years on making over $150,000 a year wihout breaking a sweat.

How do you make a comment like that?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachus...orth_of_thanks/

A nice piece out of Boston.

I thought a city was entitled to provide ambulance services as it pleases according to GML § 209-b. Here's the link if you care to read it. I know that to provide ALS you need DOH approval which may be the sticking point in Utica. This seems like nonsense to me based on the boards reasoning. I guess I could understand if they stated Utica was providing substandard care.

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF...amp;TARGET=VIEW

Question on the 3 to 1 ratio from ISO. Does ISO rate each career member "on shift" as equal to 3 volunteers? Since a volunteer doesn't make every call but on average 1 out of the three will be there thus 3 volunteers for every career FF on shift.

I'm not the ISO expert but here's how I understand it. It's on shift career firefighters to average volunteer response. So a career engine staffed with 3 gets you a better rating than a volunteer engine that averages 8 for fires. The ratio used to be highter 1-4 or 1-5. Realize ISO does this because they know career staff is for the most part better trained but most importantly faster at response. A volunteer from home response has no chance of matching in house staffed apparatus response. ISO is not putting volunteers down remember qtip but realize they suffer on average less fire loss in the career staffed areas. There are others on this board with better ISO knowledge and could answer questions on this.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/200..._neighbori.html

A very sad state of affairs.

Who's to blame?

The local chiefs for making decisions that are not in the best interest of the health and safety of their members and those they are sworne to protect?

The commisioners of these districts who let this happen?

The Town Supervisor for spineless don't rock the boat comments that do nothing for the taxpayers.

The lawyer Mr. Pinsky who although very knowledgeable about NYS fire service law (his specialty) his name continually surfaces in these less than flattering fire service conflicts?

I'll tell you who I blame FASNY, NYSAFC, and the association of fire districts who continually block any legislation that would lead to consolidation. So here is why I bring this up. In my town there is a former volunteer chief who I see ocassionally and am candid with and he happens to be very involved in these organizations. Whenever any leglislation comes up that threatens to rock the boat he gets all the card carrying members of the department to write letters and get the numbers out to block these bills. I think for the most part the members of this fourm represent the more progressive volunteer who want the best for those they serve. Next time one of these bills come along and someone is trying to get you to go along with the posse make your own decision. Read up on it and do the right thing. Maybe doing the right thing means telling FASNY your opinion or canceling your membership.

I was reading the IA for this call and they clearly had a priority to leave the driveway for the truck. Being in a department that doesn't have the benefit of a truck, I guess I don't consider this too often. When I volunteered in a department with a truck, the first due engine company and the truck company generally responded simultaneously so there wasn't much of a delay.

For the chiefs out there with more experience than me... would you complicate the initial attack of a fire like this in an uncomplicated residence to leave room for the truck coming several minutes later? Now it doesn't seem to be an issue here, as the road looks to be nearby and the front yard is pretty clear. I fought several fires in development houses like this, even in a department with a truck company, and we generally found that putting up 2 ground ladders was quicker and more effective than the tower. It also allows you to position the first due engine for the initial attack and may not waste valuable minutes while the fire doubles in size.

I would leave room for the truck if at all possible. I would have the engine pull past if possible. Two reasons on the engine pulling past instead of stoping short. 1. In most cases it is easier if the truck dosen't have to try to pass the engine on the way in. 2. Having the hose bed facing the structure makes stretching lines a lot easier for the limmited manpower we face.

Using the truck has a few benifits over gound ladders.

1. Stability is unquestionable compared to the roof that is being attacked by the fire by the minute. Remember lightweight wood trusses have no ridgepole so the roof ladder is not anchored into anything of substance and the protection it affords is debateable.

2. Setup is usually faster and done with less manpower. Not the safest tactic but many career departments with 3 person staffing the driver ladders and proceeds to the roof alone.

As for venting peaked roof houses I think it depends on location of the fire and construction. If the house is old like mine and balloon construction venting the roof is a good tactic even in a basement fire. Newer platform construction dosen't always benifit unless the fire area will be vented by the cut. In the pictures it is apparent that the fire was in the attic space so vertically venting was definatly called for to reduce horizontal extension and more importantly to keep that ceiling from being blown down on the attack team.

Good pics and discussion.

What do the manufacturers say about facial hair? How about NYS for training purposes? Maybe when the career departments get all their members to use the waist straps on their SCBAs the vounteer departments can control their members facial hair. Oh and this starts at the top too not a week goes by that I don't see a chief on tv with a goatee commenting on a fire. In the end see nobodys perfect.

I've heard it 100 times and it is so true. Although experience is key. "It's a young mans job". Last time I checked the roofman with bunker gear, SCBA, and assigned tools is over 100 pounds and thats not bringing the saw. Heart attacks are our leading killer this will undoubtly lead to further LOD injuries and deaths. Its funny how these terrible economic times can be used to acomplish what the city has been interested in doing for a while. I would think this needs to be negotiated but I'm not holding my breath. As for the tiers fire and police are on tier 2 right now, but my wife is a teacher and they are tier 4 so any talk of tier 5 would be reforms to those pension systems (teachers, local gov. workers)

Very, very, very rarely will law enforcement physically force you to move an apparatus or stop you from putting it where you want it, nor will they physically restrain you from performing the extrication / disentanglement/ firefighting/ EMS the way you see fit. If the PD is excited or pissed off or on a power trip and is yelling at you, just do your job and ignore them until they either go away or calm down enough to have a reasonable discussion.

Keeping your cool and acting like a professional is the key. In my experience in the rare instances you have an agitated police officer as long as you are not baited into raising your voice and loseing your cool it makes it nearly impossible for the officer to take action against you. I don't think qtip was any more fitting than here. Be a professional and do what is right for the patient and most importantly for the safety of you and the other responders. Things get blurred when your trying to get your tool in first or make sure your agency asserts its authority. Also it's about 15 degrees outside right now so when you go to your next accident which 99 times out of 100 won't involve any problems invite the officer back to your warm firehouse where there's always a pot of coffee on to do his report. Amazing how something little like that will help you in the future both on and off duty.

Do Arlington Career and Volunteer members wear different color gear?