firefighter-70

You continue to ignore the original question posed. (That's more like Groundhog Day then your example.)

Please answer THIS question: Is N.K. better or worse off then 8 years ago. Alternately, did ignoring them for 8 years put us in any better position? If you choose to continue to ignore this premise, I don't see any point in responding.

And do you think the only thing China gives them is rice!?!?

And as an aside, I think everyone agrees that nations understand strength. No one in this debate has proposed giving up any of our "strength."

Yes the North Korean people are worse off then they were 8 years ago, your premise is wrong, we did not ignore them. They die in huge numbers everyday. The N.K. regime chose a path that's brought them to this point. The regime has decided to acquire WMDs not the people. The US position has been clear, to maintain a free South Korea. Remember its only a cease fire.

Your ignoring the question that began this debate. Did ignoring them for 8 years yield productive results? They continued with their nuclear ambitions. They developed missile technology. If they are no weaker then they were 8 years ago, how do we call this a success? People make the argument they're isolated. Yes, from us. Not from other nations that continue to deal with them. Notably China. N.K. has a huge friend in China. There is no empirical evidence of substance that suggests N.K. is any worse off then they were.

You have your history wrong. They were given AID from many international sources during the last 8 years. They failed to follow through on their end every time. Its like ground hog day with these N. Korean leaders. Yes the N. Korean people are worse off, famine and sickness is everywhere. Yes China gives them rice, it never makes it to the people, it goes the the Army. The N. Korean people are dying, any aid the US sends for the most part never makes it to the intended people because of the rouge regime. You could offer the N. Korean leaders the world, it would not matter. They only care about themselves, not the people. They only understand strength.

Yes actually I would, inasmuch as we alone can influence the situation without direct military action. Both regimes have faced a loss of access to technology vital to increasing their nuclear capabilities, as well as an upsurge in anti government resisitance from their populace..especially Iran..remember their latest "election". The cracks are forming. Both regimes have been isolated on the world stage, and in the case of N. Korea this stance worked towards bankrupting a teetering regime while containing them on the pennisula. As for Al Qeada and such, well we haven't been attacked at home since 9/11 have we? We have taken the fight to them and kept it off our shores.

Pulling out of Iraq now may yet prove to be a huge mistake as their instability will invite Iran to attempt to influence affairs due to Iraq's large Shi'ite population. Afghanistan is now the hot spot and here the overly long drawn out process to increase troop strength, along with the Iraq pullot are seen as signs of indecision or lack of committment that no President of the United States should portray. This only emboldens our current and any potential future enemies to continue the fight (or begin one) in the belief that we lack the resolve to finish it. The security of this nation does not lie solely on our shores, but on those of distant lands as well. Our enemies must never again think they can inflict a horrific tragedy like 9/11 without an immediate, resolute and overwhelming response.

During my employment in Iraq there was one sentiment that was repeatedly expressed by the troops I had the honor of working for. Even though the war was (is) unpopular, almost to a man they felt it was better to shed their blood in Iraq or Afghan or where ever than to have even one drop of American blood be shed at home again.

So yes as unpopular as it may be, I do believe that overall the "hard line stance" of the last 8 years was a success.

Well said Captain, my best to you and your family.

Interesting how you respond emotionally and offer no actual facts to rebut the argument. Guess that kind of bolsters my point. Thanks for playing!

Well you might be playing, I'm not. I've had to search for captured Americans under pressure and didn't think it was a game. People got injured doing so and that comes with service. General David Petraeus walks softly but carries a real big stick. Those that would come to the table and seek peace were welcome those that chose killing innocent civilians through cowardice got elimated. Today we are currently preparing to redeploy from Iraq. I guess you think it's the current Commander and Chiefs plan? Think again.

We give North Korea fuel and food, what the world gets in return is broken promises and more of the same from the rouge regime. The N. Korean leaders only understand strength. South Korea reaches out to them and the north shuts down crossing points between the two countries. The US for the most part pulled back from the 38th parallel and let the ROK Army take over, this was done years ago. This was done to ease tensions, it didn't quite hit the mark on the wall. They only understand strength. Until the regime is removed, nothing will change.

Would you call the last 8 years of "hard-line stances" a success? And specifically with North Korea and Iran?

Yes, they are a success! For years prior to GWB we put our head in the sand and many servicemen and women as well as civilians paid with their lives. Remember what the 911 commission report stated, "They have been at war with us and we are not at war with them".

How about we send you down range to talk with some of our current enemy. Try your soft approach, it might work. What could happen? Saw your head off while taking a video of it for your family to watch, just because you are an American (I'll assume you are American). I choose to stand from a position of strength shoulder to shoulder with fellow members of the armed forces. Even if you don't want me too, I'm on that wall with our greatest treasure your sons, daughters and feel privileged to do so.

George,

Yes bad rumor. FDMV if it were true would have gained a competent professional who cared about the fire service and most importantly it's firefighters.

As with most rumors, you heard wrong bro. In the future, I'd appreciate if before you want to bring up my dad's name in this forum based on rumor with no facts; private message me first. I would be happy to provide you with accurate information.

~Stay safe

Captain George Glover Jr. (ret)

Eastchester Fire Department

Edit: To the younger brothers; study your supervisor textbooks and learn how to avoid "the grapevine." This is a classic example of how the grapevine is not helpful in the fire service. It can be used for any nefarious purpose, and if you buy into it you're only going to be misled.

We require a TIC along with some hand lights and a 24 FT extension ladder to be carried from the FAST Engine. The Stokes has all the standard equipment for a rapid intervention which is on our first due trucks in front of the building, its pulled from the truck by the FAST engine.

Lew allways had kind words to say. Having sat and talked with him on many occasions there allways was a lesson to be learned if you just listened, he spent days at the Surban propane fire many years back in Millerton. He loved the Fire Service and it showed. Now that he is an "Angel" above us, he certainly will be looking over us all. This firefighter was a true gentleman, a professional and mentor for many.

My deepest sympathy to the Schultz family

Lew keep your turnouts dry, well done, rest in peace my friend.

I just attended and listened to a 2 hour presentation put on by the OFPC about the new Emergency Escape and Self-Rescue Ropes and Systems Components 12NYCRR Part800.7

Just wondering how your depratment is handleing the problem-- ?? and no there is no money avaiable from the State of New York.

It effects every fire department in the State except FDNY (over one million population) is exempt from the statute.

I have heard rumors to the effect of a court ruling delaying the effective NLT date. The man to talk to is Dave Ruppert from NYS Department of Labor, It's a DOL law. Many department chiefs/comissoners are barking about the cost issue. As a Firefighter who enters and gets the job done, I think the bailout requirement is outstanding. Most/many of us have been jammed up a time or two if we are honest about it. Its good to have options if condition turn into a bag of worms. The true conerstone of bailout training is how to read conditions (like smoke) and prevent the situation from going south. But if the "you know what" hits the fan then a bailout system that a rock with lips could use, is whats needed. The Petzl EXO do cost a few bucks, but I think they are by far the best available of the shelf today.

Not that its dirty, justr a few guys look like they have some very dated gear, where as some look like they have newer gear.

Just take a look at the number of fires these guys have had in the last three weeks!!! I guess your stuff would look about the same.

V/r

Getinitdone

remember, when bailing with the petzel your hand is not on the lever. Once you're out the window you can then use the lever to begin your descent.

My point to the letter. Once you get the XO (gri-gri) just past the window sill, you just have to fall out the window head first. Trust me, after training thousands of slides with the PETZL XO if you just get the firefighter out the window, his hands can just about be any place. The system is closed so he will not fall until the lever (gas pedal) is pulled. We teach hand position (left hand grasping left is side wall/molding, right hand holding rope 6-12 inches below the XO and punching the outside wall at the 5 O'clock position. We've had firefighters just screw this all up in that "state of confusion mode" and just about flip over, a complete 360 and the Petzl XO still worked fine. I would put the XO above any of the other systems on the market. With the XO you can move from a remote tie off position or to a window sill for a last resort bail, it works just plain smooth. The others we tested all worked, none came close to the XO. I am not a saleman, just advocating for those great Americans "Firefighters"!!!

The first time I did the rope slide with my Gemtor I did the same thing...Operator error..thank goodness for the the redundant back up.

I agree 1000 percent that at least quarterly training is very important to these survival techniques...we had discussed making a mock window frame to put on the roof of the fire house for ladder ops, but it could be made in a fashion to double as a bail out window. Hmmmm......

The new station in Poughkeepise has a slick set up in the apparatus bay. There are some "window" openings used for this very purpose.

Photo courtesy of www.local596.com - check the site for more pics.

http://www.local596.com/galleryphoto/main....84f437eff5fdd3d

Local 596 and POK FD did this the right way. Going home after every tour/call is what its about. They can in house train with little set up or trouble, looks outstanding. My hats off to them!!

One of the drawbacks of the Pertzl is that you need to train regularly with it. I used Frank's Petzl and dropped to the ground because it is very finicky and touchy when you try to descend. If you are not going to practice at least quartely, save your money and buy rope and a beaner.

I find the fact that you dropped to the ground very interesting. How did you deploy the system? Did you have your hand on the XO (GRI-GRI) arm or what? We tested seven systems and by far the PETZL XO is the clear choice, bar none. First, all of the other systems need re-training every 30 days at a minimum. It all works great in training, laying the rope through the snap link, then securing it around your waist, then placing your haligan into the window corner (this assumes you have a halligan and oh yeah there is a hole in the concrete wall for the tool like most training centers do) then bailing while keeping control of your decent with both of your gloved hands. The PETZL when deployed is "Hook, Look, and Book" out and away from danger. Firefighters that dont use ropes and hardware have to be spot checked all the time. Alot of people talk the talk but can't walk the walk when it comes to hands on with ropes. I have met several firefighters that are the cats a$$ when it come to knowledge and use. Black Sunday for FDNY proved that when the turds hit the fan, a system thats simple and fast is the only answer. Cost do play a factor, life is priceless and I would advocate for the best when comes to the welfare of my battle buddies.

This stuff has got to harm the public image of FDMV. You can't have a story about giving away money when you're begging for staffing and equipment.

The firefighters in MV have seen some real fire duty, the kind that most just read about. News print and TV news stories like these don't help the fire service. God look over them as they keep moving forward!

About $12,500. I will post the details and pics online once I have a chance to get the poster done. It is a really nice truck and in great shape. 12 strobe Whelen lightbar on the front (red/white), 6 strobe mini Whelen lightbar (reb/amber) on the rear, flashing headlights, red/while grille lights, red/white intersection lights and strobes mounted on both of the barn doors on the back. Whelen siren with two amplifiers. Whelen Spectra 110W VHF radio can be included for an additional $350.

What year is the Surburban, is it gas or diesel.

firefighter 70,

First of all, thank you for your service. From what I've read, Afghanistan is hell for our Soldiers and Marines due to the terrain you describe. And to add about your note about the tribes, remember, these people fought along side Osama against the Russians in the 80's. Do you think they'll turn him over?

Someone mentioned Vietnam and the direction from politicians. How can our Generals devise a plan, when Congress attempts to undermine any plans by either the Commander-in-Chief and the Generals.

Now on the subject, it is my understanding that you cannot demonstrate on duty and no public vehicles can be used.

First I must say it is a privledge and honor for me to serve in the armed forces of the United States. Working with the ANA (Afghan National Army) I found them to be true warriors. I believe the Russians failed because they did not treat the Afghans with respect and as peers/partners, they looked at them as not up to the task etc.

We as Soldiers, Sailors, Airman and Marines due treat them with respect and dignity. When in a close fight, they see that you are by their side and they stick and hold, they started mirroring our image. They responded well to "do as I do" and "follow me". They now operate well as Battalions and improve every day. It's tough to stand up an Army with no leaders at first, try standing up a Fire Department that has several jobs (fires) a day and see what the learning curve is.

Will they turn over Osama if they caught him, "Yes" I think so. I now have life long friends who are Afghan Soldiers, we have a brotherhood of service together.

The tribes that may harbor Osama are not educated well or at all. When you drop messages by aircraft or by hand and the people cannot read, and have been told by terrorists that the Americans will kill you etc, it's normal for these people to fear us. Civil Affairs Soldiers work this area and build bridges to these tribes through education and infrastructor construction (wells, schools, health clinic etc). Many of them learn that we are trying to help, like anything else some are hard to the bone bad and nothing we do would turn them.

As members of the Armed Forces I cannot in uniform act as though I represent the Army at any political event period. I can attend in civilian attire and support who ever I choose such as my local representitive from congress. I cannot influence a soldier to politically do anything one way or another.

It is congress job to debate the War, all wars need this done. Our most precious resourse, our young men and women require nothing less then full commitment of our elected representitives and the citizens of the United States. We rely on this support. I feel properly supported, most people I meet while in uniform have kind words to say such as thanks, others that say things such as "how do you like fighting for oil" or " Your boss is a liar" just make me laugh! I always remember as an "American fighting man" I protect the rights of these people also.

What at times gets me a little blue is all the negative media coverage. Better balance is needed, we have many great things that happen for the nations our Armed Forces serve in around the world (80-100 nations world wide). What I have learned by the media coverage to this point is "If it bleeds it leads" and we may never hear the stories of true heros where ever they may be.

Thank you to all who support us and for keeping us in your prayers.

V/r

"At the tip of the spear"

United States troops no matter where they are deployed deserve the support of all of all of us. It seems its the political end that has us in a delemia, if we say bring them home- they say we are losing the war on terriorism, if we say send more over there we are acused of sending troops to a no win situation.

It wasn't so long ago that we were in the same situtation 1966-1968 100,000's of of soliders went to war under almost the same conditions-- we are still seeing the effects on the service men and women.

Here's my question the the politicians: If we can send people into space-- go to google earth and find my house- spend millions of dollars no, make that billions of dollars on what ever!!! why the hell can't we find the one person responsible for the attack on our country.

Don't mean to rant and rave, but some where we made a right turn in Afganstan and ended up in Iraq

So you don't mean to rant and rave. You want to ask a politician why we can't find Osama.

Let me set the conditions of Combat in Afghanistan for ya. First, all soldiers are operating in a very very harsh enviorment. The terrian is for the most part solid rock, you can stand on one ridge and look at another no more then 500-1000 feet away. To move that 500-1000 feet is a 3000-4000 ft movement down by foot and then back up, mind you you are several thousand feet above sea level ( have you ever had to breath through a straw?) and remember you are wearing full battle rattle (Weapon, Advanced Combat Helmet, IBA with SAPI plates "Body Armor", Load Bearing Vest with ammo and frags, Canteens and Camel Back, assault ruck sack with assorted equipment, Night vision goggles etc, etc).

This area that our most wanted man Osama is hiding is a rough place, the Russian got an a** kicking here. They have tunnels that are hundreds of years old, people who don't know how to read and are kept that way to advance the local war lords power and control of his tribe. Yes a tribe, most are are not influenced by money, they have nothing to spend it on. Our Soldiers and Marines search every day, conduct cordon and searches, establish Vehicle Control Points etc, etc. They are at the tip of the spear looking for this piece of garbage. I look in the faces of these young men and women (your sons and daughters) and wonder why, why they joined the Armed Forces of the United States in the face of all this bad news and things that this and that group does and does not support. They do it for the battle buddy on their right and left, then for their unit then nation.

We the Armed Forces will never give up looking for Terrorists like Osama. My service has what we call the "Army Values"-Loyalty,Duty,Respect, SELFLESS SERVICE, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage (the other services have them to). I see this every day in our young men and women, they lead by example and from the front. I am awed by them, Americans who have heeded the call to service.

Maybe you should look for Jimmy Hoffa's body, he has been missing for 30 some odd years now in the United States, maybe the space shuttle can direct you. I will keep searching for the bad guys here, Mission first-Men always.

My definition of service is "you give more then you get" do some thinking on what that means.

Very Respectfully

"At the Tip of the Spear"

Seems to me that these two sides are not necessarily disagreeing with each other. One side is supporting the troops, the other is against the war. I don't see those two arguments as being mutually exclusive. Isn't the best way to support the troops, to bring them home safely? Whether i'm for the war or not, youre damn right that I will support our servicemen and women. I think BFD hit the nail on the head. If the truck was on the other side of the street, the other group would be complaining. How is what tehse guys did any different than the numerous "We support our troops" stickers that i've seen on apparatus?

Well said Jay