crcocr1

I am a [poor] third year law student studying for the bar exam in july. Although I am NOT a lawyer, the term "Motor Vehicle Collision" would be better from a legal standpoint as it does not denote accident or fault and leaves the determination of fault to a jury, if a case were to get to trial. Of course, any difference in terminology would be subtle as witnesses testify, documents are admitted into evidence, and the like.

Personally, I agree with the comments of my fellow FF/EMTs. In the end, an individual is injured or dead. It is a worrysome event regardless of fault. We bear an ethical duty to assist the injured and protect personal property and should do so on or off-duty.

First and foremost, I am a law student studying the New York State Bar. I agree that No-Fault Insurance makes little sense if you truly are not the individual at fault.

Secondly, I agree that giving FF/EMTs the same status as PD if FF/EMTs across the board act responsibly. There are too many instances where FF/EMTs go speeding down the road in excess of 20 mph in their personal vehicles or in an official vehicle because the nature of the call. [They almost always admit this after a call.] Although one might be able to rationalize it because "it was a cardiac arrest" or "there was a kid involved", if an accident occurs, the FF/EMT doesn't help anyone. Instead, s/he will be forced to visit lawyers, go to Court, and possibly face criminal penalties. In addition, the FD/EMS agency will suffer a black eye in the community. If we show the State that we can act responsibly and professionally, the Legislature will act reasonably. In turn, acting responsibly also will lower insurance rates, as insurance companies measure risk. Further the Legislature can mandate changes in the insurance law as well.

Third, as a general matter, FF/EMS needs to act professionally, especially in a volunteer agency. This professionalism extends to how neatly we dress, how we act, and how we deal with the stresses in our lives. The public views us as professionals, and the Courts treats us like professionals. Granted, some chief officers/rank and file may act a bit irresponsible with policy and procedure, especially in the disciplinary arena, but this will change if we lead by example.

Finally, with all this said, everyone be safe out there!

JDR

There is a policy with STATFLIGHT that incidents outside a certain mileage area will result in an automatic launch for the Medevac Helicopter. For incidents within a certain mileage area, Medevac can be placed on standby and then launched on request. Either option, of course, is dependent on a Dispatcher, FD, EMS, or Citizen requesting MEDEVAC/HEMS services.

My two cents: Do the best you can with the time you have each day. Everyone should be happy there is an open forum to post pictures, incident alerts, and discussion topics. If the alert is a week or two late, the interested members still will get to know about it in time. If a picture or two fails to get posted, many other pictures exist to take its place. In the end, many know that EMTbravo does exist and its founder and administrators do their best to put up quality information.

As an EMT attending law school, I rely on this site to keep me apprised of the events transpiring in my county, and what my part-time employer (St. Francis Hospital) is recieving. Thank you for starting this website, and maintaining it.

Joe

And when the fence fails to work, what then? It seems to me that there already is an impedment to jumping on the Tappan Zee Bridge, the five foot wall on each side. Someone has to consciously step up to get to the bridge's edge. Outside of staffing the bridge with suicide counselors, I don't see any other viable remedy that would in any way assist other than the pre-existing measures in place.

I've read somewhere that most motorists, however, often are confused by multiple sirens and therefore are susceptible to thinking that the ambulance is in front of them, rather than behind.

I completely agree with the NFPA regulation. If you think about the kinetics of injury, there are any number of ways that you could injury yourself, your fellow brothers and sisters, and innocent citizens if a helmet is worn or loose within the fire truck. It is preventative litigation at its best.

If the patient is not under arrest, and there is not reasonable suspicion that he committed a crime than pat down = unconstitutional invasion.

Reasonable suspicion: Facts & Information that would lead a reasonable person (police officer) to believe that a felony or penal law misdemeanor has been, is about to be, or is being committed. Only then can an officer stop and pat down a subject for WEAPONS, and the court has interpreted this to extent necessary that the PO believes the person has, is, or about to committ an inherent dangerous crime (crime associated with weapons) or the PO can see a bulge, etc.

Anytime anyone gets in the back of my RMP, whether during an investigation or during the rendering of assistance to anyone, they get patted down for weapons. This tactic goes hand in hand with officer safety and dept. policy. No pat down = no sitting in the back of my warm car, or getting a free ride!

Being intoxicated does not mean a person is a criminal, however during a patient assessment while PD is on scene it might behoove you to detect anything suspicious and relay the info to the pd. I can recall one incident in particular where an alert emt observed an aided attempting to secrete a quanity of narcotics and relayed the information to a PO. It turned out that the aided was running a pharmacy out of the residence, and lets just say the aided was not a pharmacist!

In the facts presented, however, I assume the PD was dispatched to an individual displaying a knife and threatening staff and other patients. This information, though hearsay, establishes reasonable cause (probable cause) to believe a felony and/or misdemeanor has or is being committed and gives a Police Officer cause to detain. So long as the Police Officer reasonably is in danger of further injury, a Terry frisk or pat-down is permissible while effecting arrest.

In regards to EMTs relaying information to PD, I would caution any EMT from doing so as it may have a "chilling effect" on patients providing you with information to assist in care. It also could result in disciplinary action by the NYS Department of Health-Burea of EMS. However, if the EMT fears for his or her safety, he or she is free to have police present during assessment and care, so long as he or she explains the need on a PCR.

Finally, a DWI is a violation at first but Three DWIs = A Felony in NYS.

That's great, but I hope you guys have a backup plan if the guy is armed, such as in this case. In Yonkers, we routinely send units to the ER's with the utmost priority when they request assistance, some of us have a stake in it!

Talk is cheap, and it does work at times, but to prevent injury to workers and other patients, it is sometimes better to have the boys in blue come and assist.

The same type of response occurs in Poughkeepsie. However, it takes two to three minutes to respond and arrive on scene. If a disgruntled patient did want to discharge a weapon, s/he could kill and injure many before the PD arrive. In which case, the ER would be a felony crime scene. This is not to say a rapid response by the PD would not prevent further lives from being taken, but rather that a hospital "code" adds a layer of protection to other workers and patients until the police respond. The response, therefore, should be collective.

This is why in my (volunteer) drpartment, prior to apporval, a background check(arson) is done through SP on ALL applicants. It might not cover everything, but it's a start.

Its actually state law that every fire company conduct a background check on prospective members. Otherwise, the fire company could be liable for the acts of the prospective member, once admitted into the company.

It is my understanding that even if there were a conflicting decision, a firefighter charged with violating the bylaws and/or department rules only is entitled to procedural due process, meaning that as long the department follows the applicable law governing an administrative hearing in this regard (i.e. General Municipal Law, Town Law, etc.), it is protected regardless of any future criminal proceeding. If the accused firefighter feels aggrieved, he may appeal the decision to the trial court through an Article 78 proceeding to review the department's disposition.

Criminal proceedings work differently because of constitutional concerns and a higher burden of proof. Remember that OJ Simpson was found liable in a civil proceeding, but not guilty by a criminal court, albeit in the State of California?

Although there may be many good reasons for waiting until the criminal charges are resolved, it is possible to remove the accused firefighter nonetheless. I, however, am not an attorney and will not speculate as to the cost benefit analysis in waiting versus not waiting in this specific instance.

In an earlier post, a Member referenced citing statutory law so that it can be relied upon in the field. As a law student, I caution anyone to rely on any statute without the advice of counsel. In failing to do so, a Member or its agency may subject itself to criminal and civil liability due to any inaccuracy. With that said, I agree with many posts that caution must be exercised in responding to calls and that certain persons control the scene depending on the circumstances. I hope you all are safe and return home safe after each of your respective tours of duty.

Actually, an individual cannot commece a legal action against another individual or entity without some legal basis. Both federal and state courts already have filled dockets with meritorous cases and sanction lawyers who would waste the court's time in initiating an action merely to extort money from an opposing party.

Before responding to this posting, or any posting for that matter, it is important to realize that an advertisement does not contain all the material facts behind the legal action, but merely seeks to entice a group of individuals possibly harmed through a violation of legal right, engrained within a statute or common law.

We do not know all the facts behind this incident, if the fire could have been contained, or the like. Assuming there is no facts giving rise to legal action, I sincerely hope the lawyer is sanctioned and referred for possible disbarment proceedings in accordance with the Connecticut State Bar.

JR

Wow...I dont like it when I come in to a thread this late and have to read so many posts. But I got to tell you...I got sick to my stomache about 1/8 of the way in...

Most of you need to either relax, READ what is actually written and attempt to understand it better or both...In no way, shape or form has x635 made any comment or accusation or slander towords any specific person or agency. He, and everyone who supported him, brought up EXCELLENT points that NEED to be addressed. Those of you who cower behind the excuse of "We need to let it calm down, our brother isnt in the ground yet and your bashing this and that..." (read like a 3 year old complaining for a cookie after dinner)...Are actually the ones being disrespectfull to our brother Matt. If it were me that died in an accident, I would WANT all of you to fight for the rights of every other EMS/FIRE/LE brother and sister so that what happened to me didnt happen to anyone else. I did not have the privilege to know Matt, but regardless he was my brother, I mourn for him, I pray for the brother who was driving and offer my courage and strength to him, but I will be DAMMED if I am going to let Matts death be an excuse for me to NOT fight for our rights as EMS workers. The topic Seth brings up and most of you support this far is an EXCELLENT topic, one that should be addressed everywhere. This is not an attack against Empire, this is a justifiable discussion to find solutions to an ongoing problem faced by EMS providers everywhere...and when I say EMS in this topic I mean Fire/EMS/LE in one ball of wax.

I apologise to all of you I have lost track of names and points I wanted to elaborate on so I wont be able to give full credit here...sorry.

I agree with the opinion of making us CDL drivers...that is an excellent way of tracking how many hours spent on calls and how much sleep/rest is needed. I see that offering some type of small solution to this problem, excellent idea, (whoever you were!!)

I dont agree with the cut-back in the hours worked per shift, some agencies dont work as many runs in a 12 or 24 hour shift as others do, and than again some people clock in and never do anything BUT calls untill they clock out. But in my case, I work a ft job, 10 hours a day M-Thurs, leave work thursday at 4pm and go to my PT job as an EMT to do a 24 6p thursday night. In a perfect world this gives me my weekends with my daughter, but those hours STILL do not give me enough money to live, and lately I have been working an additional 24-60 hours a weekend at the ambulance. Sometimes we do 2-3 calls per 12 hour shift, but there were times we ran straight for about 13-16 hours without a break. We do both transports and 911 calls, transports are an average of 2-3 hours per call, depending on the receiving facility and the distance to get there. My company has a policy that states there is a mandatory hold over of no more than 2 hours, so if at the end of your shift you get banged with a trip to the burn unit or trauma center, they can tell you your doing it whether you like it or not. But they take all factors into consideration also, like how many hours have you been going without rest and so on.

To whoever said the transport agencies make more money.......HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL......(tears Dropping)HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......bent over clutching stomache....Thats funny. No. We dont make more money on transfers, we do get more paperwork to fill out, signatures to obtain, and when we cant get the signature or the person doesnt have their insurance info our billing staff have to track it down, and they only have a month to do so or the company eats the bill. I have worked for one paid agency or another since 1996 as PT, FT ALS and BLS and I have seen all aspects of billing and paperwork to deffinately say that Transports do not make more money for the company.

Back to the original topic (sorry, I have a whole bunch going through my head after reading so many posts!) I agree with Seth and the entire EMTBravo family when it comes to dealing with these issues sooner, rather than later, in order to correct mistakes, re-write SOP's and make sure it never happens again, to anyone. (sigh...that was a mouthfull!!!)

I am going to stop here, before I have an angry mob chasing after me with defibrilators trying to convert my sinus rythm to flatline.!!!

Good topic. Excellent points by a lot of you, it definately makes you think...which for some of us is good!!

Brian,

I think if you review most major ambulance companies financial statements, you will see that, compared to 911 calls, most revenue is derived from inter-agency transports, in New York and nationwide. Although you might think otherwise from reviewing financials from your organizations, I have reviewed statistics from a much larger database, which includes Rural/Metro, AMR, etc. etc. You might see it similarly if you look around and see that some ambulance companies start off as solely inter-agency transports because there is less regulation (more liability but less regulation) and less overhead needed. Although Medicare/Medicaid rates still are the same as they were when the legislation was first enacted, EMS, much like hospitals in America, still derive a majority of income from Medicare/Medicaid. I can direct you to resources such as the American Ambulance Association and the American Hospital Association websites for statistics. Once these companies get their feet firmly planted on sound financial ground, they then expand to 911 transports to attract a larger employment base.

One member's comment regarding NY being Right to Work State is absolutely correct. For the most part, NY is a Right to Work State. The EMS industry needs to advocate to become more regulated insofar as hour regulation, much like the health care industry, if we are indeed concerned that patient care is suffering from an overworked EMS worker.

As a third year law student, and EMS worker, I look forward to representing the industry in my spare time. I agree with you insofar as the EMS industry needs advocacy. It is ridiculous when it does more call volume than Fire, yet gets paid half of the amount.

Insofar as my original reply, I regret the reply because the comment was targeted toward low wage rates. So, I apologize if I distorted your comment.

JDR

As for the topic at hand, forget playing devils advocate, if you let your employer take advantage of you like several of you have then its your fault. Its their job to get the most out of you and its your job to get the most out of them. If they aren't going to treat you right then bail and move on to the next company. There was an article I believe in JEMS a while ago about the problems with attrition in EMS. They used a Jersey Hospital as a case study that for many years had always had the lowest attrition rates while paying similar pay and benefits as surrounding hospitals. One competitor when faced with now critical staffing problems got new management in house that increased pay and incentives to troubled positions. After their success a the other hospitals followed suit. Before long a hospital that never had a problem with staffing saw it attrition rates go through the roof. To fix it they set their benefits to match the others and the problem disappeared. Not a real complex story but it goes to show that we are the problem. Inter facility transports are only increasing. Sub-acute care is one of the fastest growing segments of the health care industry and the populace is only getting older, in fact for the next 10 to 15 (depending on who you ask) years the average age is going to be rapidly increasing. That means these transport companies are becoming busier and as much as medicaid and medicare hamstring them their profits are higher than they ever were.

If the job you're working doesn't allow you to make ends meet then its time to do something about it. I have many friends who've had to make hard choices and move out to the sticks or leave the area all together. For my own happiness and future security I took a pay cut made some adjustments and set out towards a career that I can support myself with. Any EMT with half a brain should not be working transports for very long. There is no money in it. Work a 40 hour week at Starbucks and you will make more than most of your co-workers with better benefits than many. Anyone with an associates or better and some work experience can go get a job managing at Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc.

Actually, intraagency and intrahospital transports is how many private ambulance companies make money to keep their agency alive. Depending on where you work, regretfully, some patients transported on a 911 basis may not have monies to pay the bill, causing the ambulance company to either pay a lawyer to collect the fee OR eat the cost.

Joseph Daniel Remy, 3L, EMT