Sending All Three Chiefs On Mutual Aid?

[firecapt32 282]

Great response ATIFD I have been involved with some of Batt 14 multi department drill and fiind them refreshing to see different Chiefs taking over and actually learning the ICS system and useing it. More Batt should do that, yoiu get to learn about the different departments and how they function, more important you get to see different chiefs.

[emt301 4]

If 3 chief's are available, one goes directly to the scene to report to IC, one goes to the firehouse to lead incoming apparatus, the third trails, confirms that members are at HQ to staff additional equipment and if they respond to the scene make an effort to park away from the scene and will not commit to any operations. 

←

Just so nobody gets sensitive, offended, or insulted...my comments below are not directed at any particular department...

While I still don't believe it's necessary in all cases (and it seems to happen most, if not all of the time in Westchester with the volunteer departments...even for relatively small scale incidents like car fires), I certainly understand how having a chief responding in with his mutual aid equipment can be useful for the IC. But with all due respect...2 or 3 chiefs from each mutual aid department? It's overkill if you've got mutual aid coming in from 3 or 4 departments....you could end up with 6-12 chiefs responding...all making transmissions to the dispatch center and IC, with 6-12 more vehicles contributing to an already congested scene, and creating more risk to themselves & the public with 6-12 vehicles responding code-3....and also potentially leaving the mutual aid company's hometown/hometown taxpaying citizens with no chiefs for coverage if a call drops.

In terms of getting apparatus to the scene, that's what a fireground channel can be used for...the incoming apparatus/junior officers on board can contact Command for any necessary directions and for their assignment at the scene. It works fine here in Dutchess, and we don't end up with an excessive number of chiefs, extra radio transmissions, & extra vehicles at large incidents. Yes, there can be...too many... chiefs on scene, sometimes creating confusion, freelancing, and I hate to say it, but even personality/power conflicts (the old "I'm in charge here, no I'm in charge here" syndrome). It's unfortunate in the age of ICS, but I've seen it happen more than once...

Now in terms of even more additional chiefs responding...this type of situation helps contribute to the "buff" comments made in other posts. If every department does this in a big operation, you end up with extra chief officers hanging around but not doing a whole lot since they (understandably) don't want to commit...when in reality they should be standing by in their home quarters with a crew in case their station gets a call for their hometown/home taxpayers.

No disrespect is intended in this post, just my opinion from having seen things from a number of different angles over the last 10 years...as a volunteer firefighter, an airport ARFF supervisor, and fire dispatcher.

Edited January 30, 2007 by emt301

[ladderthebuilding 2]

Bravo ATFID you are 100 percent correct.

First until you know that department's policy you shouldn't judge. Like ATFID said, in Bat 14 we use Mutual Aid Chief's as Staging Chiefs, Sector Chiefs and alike. We train this way in our "Bread and Butter Drills" and this is the way we operate together. In today’s day and age we need to work and help each other not pick on every detail.

You can come up with any scenario you want the bottom line is that the chief of that department has a responsibility to provide protection to his/her area first and then assist his/her neighboring department to the best of their capability.

We don't have a hard and fast rule but we use common sense when responding to a MA call or an MVA on the highway:

This is based on all three chiefs being available for a call:

MA Ladder = Ladder Chief and Chief of Department

MA Engine = Engine Chief and Chief of Department

The 3rd Chief remains in the village.

MVA= First Chief responds to the call.

2nd Chief Responds to the Fire house to make sure the Ambulance Gets out and then will respond to the highway.

3rd Chief will remain back in the village in the event of another run.

Have there been times all three chiefs have responded to a highway call. YES. It does happen. So now you have three sets of hands, working with multiple injuries and vehicles. Again this is a common sense job.

It’s also a lot easier to judge someone if it’s not you that’s in the hot seat. It’s hard enough to be a chief and run a department with out people who aren’t officers judging your actions. Walk a mile in my shoes and then come talk to me.

Edited January 30, 2007 by ladderthebuilding

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First and foremost I want to state that my discussions and opinions have nothing to do with whatever incident some are referring too. Mine are general in nature and to be honest I know nothing about the incident some have referred too.

Now in regard to some things that are still being said:

What about past threads posted about accountability, safety, ICS? How are these tasks supposed to be handled? Who is supposed to teach the younger lieutenants and captains when "real" calls are few and far between?

They are handled by the appropriate person on scene. Chief, Captain, Lieutenant goes out the window with ICS.

How do we teach them...by utilizing ICS on all calls. Every call is "real," I know what you are referring too, I'm just using "real" for my input in this case. You get good at ICS on the "small" stuff, AFA's, car accidents, CO alarms, odor's, etc. So you have an idea of how to operate when its big. This is the time to learn...not at "real" jobs. We train, train and train again at courses and drills (or at least you should be), not on the job training at "real" jobs, so how can anyone expect company officers and firefighters to learn ICS any differently. Every call is a learning experience. My former department we utilized the ICS on every call but EMS calls. Everyone knew the system and new members were taught and observed to learn it.

As I said any able and qualified person when put in the right place, function, title makes ICS work. Doesn't matter what color your helmet is or what it says on it.

We all know there are times where a person of lesser or no rank is more quailifed then the person with a colored helmet or title.

I certainly understand how having a chief responding in with his mutual aid equipment can be useful for the IC.

No....having a competent person period responding on or with the mutual aid equipment is useful to the IC...title does not matter.

[emt301 4]

No....having a competent person period responding on or with the mutual aid equipment is useful to the IC...title does not matter.

←

That was what I said in my first post on this subject, and implied in my last one where I referred to junior officers responding on the mutual aid apparatus. In terms of chiefs responding, I was merely stating that I'm not opposed to one QUALIFIED (competent) chief responding mutual aid from a department, and that the chief could be useful to an IC depending upon the situation...I'm against multiple chiefs responding mutual aid from the same department, especially when it leaves the hometown area stripped.

Obviously, any officer, responding to any call, should be qualified to do the job...or else they shouldn't hold the title. An incompetent officer can at the very least be an obstacle in mitigating the emergency, and in the worst case get someone killed.

Edited January 30, 2007 by emt301

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris, I think you missed the point.  YES, there is only one IC.  The break down comes when the other Chiefs arrive all adding there bit of statagy.  This is where the breakdown happens, and yes it does happen.  Stratagys change , tactics change all without the IC being aware.  This is when things become dangerous. 

As far as sector chiefs?  This  was a term used  and some places still is.  They for example would be responsible for instance the #3 exposure and any efforts that are being made back there.  Although with nims this title might not exsist but the job wil still be assigned to someone.  Most likely at a multi alarm fire this person will be a Chief.

←

Thanks for the clarification - I think the equivalent in NIMS/ICS terminology will be Division Supervisor.

If anyone on the scene is changing strategies or tactics without the consent or even knowledge of the IC, that's a recipe for problems! I agree that is going to complicate things greatly! Yeesh!

[LCFD968 10]

In previous threads comments are made that we have trouble staffing and responding to calls.  Then when there is a legitimate call we question the number of people sent to the call? Which way do we want it, are we to be inept, incapable emergency responders or a well trained, highly motivated group?  Especially with a call at a hospital, early in the morning when hospital staff might be at a minimum, shouldn't we dedicate as much manpower as possible until you get the situation under control?

There were some valid concerns stated in prior comments but what about the benefits of having extra chiefs on scene?  What about past threads posted about accountability, safety, ICS?  How are these tasks supposed to be handled? 

If the local department doesn't have the staff necessary to handle these tasks Battalion 14 relies on incoming mutual aid chiefs.  This arrangement has been setup in advance and trained on.  I don't know if any other groups do this but Battalion 14 drills at WCDES training faculty as a group and here's what happens.  The group, up to 80 firefighters not only train on the different simulators but the chiefs train together on each part of the operation.  Yes, THE CHIEFS ARE TRAINING just for situations like this weekend.   Each evolution a chief will take a turn at IC, operations, safety, accountability, staging, etc..etc..  So the extra chiefs aren't just showing up to scenes to buff and get their jollies off,  but are expected to be active participants and be important part of the decision making process.

Finally, I also find in very inappropriate for a very intelligent discussion to bring in the comments of "Buff fest".  HFD23 asked a legitimate question based on info he read and heard.  All too often, these other derogatory comments take these threads in the wrong direction.  Every department operates differently; don’t call it stupid or buffy.   Get educated about other departments policies and procedures and learn something new.

←

Well said ATIFD.... And might I say welcome to EMTBRAVO land CHIEF!!!!

Edited January 30, 2007 by LCFD968

[Deputy64 0]

The Chiefs first responcibility is his own Department. If a Department has 3 Chiefs and 1 Deputy Chief, there is no need to send more then 1 Chief. The main reason to send a Chief is to supervise and if you are only on stand by at a Fire House waiting for another call ( other than the main call ) he would be that IC. In my Town we try to only send 1 but it doesn't always turn out that way.

[HFD750 6]

Like I said in another forum all our chiefs work in town.And for mutal aid only one chief goes out of town. It all depends on who is available we would call eachother on the phone and ask who could take the out of town call. Sometimes it wouldn't even be a chief it would be a Lt or a Capt. Time of day all factors in to who goes. But only one chief goes out of town. As for I-95 or Hutch calls we always try to keep one chief in service as to not tie all three up on the highway which wouldn't make much sense anyway. I guess it comes down to your SOP's or SOG's. But I agree it dosen't make sense to send all out of town. We learned from our mistakes and I'm not ashamed to say but we used to do it. We had a call in Mamaroneck when all 3 chiefs were at the fire scene working and our ladder and engine were in stand-by at one of Mamaroneck's firehouse's and the whole time we were wondering why were not at the scene well it was because everyone thought we already were since they heard all our chiefs all over the radio. So the bottom line we make mistakes the important thing is to learn from them!! Accountablity also became a factor the chiefs should know where you are and what's going on but you can't do that when your fighting the fire. And I'm just learning all this but some of it seems so common sense. I don't know just my thoughts.

Edited January 31, 2007 by HFD750