FD vs. PD Closing The Road

[robert benz 344]

I would like to hear from some of our PD brothers as to why there is so much confrontation when it comes to the fd shutting down a lane of traffic / or if needed the whole road/ parkway/highway for the safety of EVERYBODY on the scene.

i was always told as FD we have the right to shutdown what we need to handle the scene safely. legally am i right? i know what happened last year in New Jersey.

So many Police Officers get hit or nearly hit each year it would seem to me that they would be more than happy to work safely also. It isnt a HUGE problem, but i have been on scene too many times to say it is an isolated incident.

the screaming matches and threats of arrest have to stop when it is simply a safety issue.

and as a side note PD can shut the road down for hours to complete an investigation.

aside from the rant where do we stand legally?

[efd184 59]

threats of being arrested for doing our jobs? so does this mean if i am on the parkway at an accident or a car fire and i take up 2 lanes to protect my self and my brothers i can be arrested if i am told to move the rig and i dont ?

Edited April 19, 2007 by efd184

[Guest]

I don't believe that the situation in New Jersey last year is a particularly good example. The situation, according to reports, CLEARLY didn't call for F.D. response and the results were due to egos and uncooporational attitudes.

As for closing the road; I don't think anyone could offer a reasonable arguement for not shutting the lane you're in and the lane next door. No one wants to get hurt and in the face of emergency safety, who cares about drivers being late or sitting in traffic.

Troopers, I understand, often have superiors leaning on them to keep the traffic flowing, perhaps the solution to this problem rests with powers higher than those of us on the street.

There is a grey area that needs to be cleared up. The F.D. owns the scene, but the PD owns the roadway.....this leaves scene management in the previously mentioned grey area. Where does this become black and white?

Edited April 19, 2007 by lfdR1

[helicopper 1,050]

There are a lot of different perspectives on this and it will probably continue to fester even after we're all retired.

First off, I'm all for closing the road (completely or by lane) when necessary. My tactic of choice was to close the road for just enough traffic to back up requiring everyone to slow way down and then reopen it. It was the perfect amount of time to set up a proper flare pattern without getting creamed too.

But when you're sitting on the shoulder or off the road completely and traffic is creeping by is it still necessary to take out a lane? Perhaps, perhaps not. Inconveniencing the motorist is only an incidental concern but when you take a lane and traffic backs up you run the very real risk of additional car accidents further down the road. People get pi$$y and road rage problems crop up. Cars break down or overheat. So, if you can keep the traffic moving to avoid these problems, let's do it.

With all the dual responses to parkway/highway jobs, you wind up with an awful lot of apparatus just sitting around. If one piece is needed to safeguard the scene send everyone else back. Whatever you do, and I've harped on this before, don't stop on the northbound side if the accident is southbound. Isn't that why you have a dual response in the first place - so you don't have to stop on the opposite side and cross traffic?

As for the FD "owning the scene" and the PD "owning the road", can you please cite what law or regulation states that? I hear it all the time and think it does us all a great disservice. I don't own anything - I have a responsibility to safeguard the scene, investigate and report the accident, etc. I have also been to hundreds of accidents - even accidents with injuries - where there was no fire response. It worked. I've been to lots of accidents with the FD and those worked too.

It shouldn't be the tired ol' "I'm in charge" nonsense. Let's work together so we can get off the scene sooner. After all, we're all supposed to be on the same side!

[nycemt728 49]

I agree with Chris192 here. If there is ample room to work on the shoulder, operate w/ extreme caution, but its probably not necessary to close a lane. IMO, and this is coming from working in NYC so I undersrtand this might need some modification in other jurisdictions. Plain and simple, whoever is first onscene, judiciously do what they need to do to ensure scene safety. If that means shutting a lane, so be it. However, once PD is on scene, allow them to take over that responsibility, quickly move trucks or vehicles and allow them to continue setting up flare etc. Despite what may be said, it's really not EMS or FD's role at the scene. If there is extra personell, by all means assist, but don't create a loggerjam on the road just b/c you can. When I am off duty, I can't stand it when there are 5 vehicles parked in one or two lanes with no operations being done and everyone is waiting for a tow or the ambulance is just ready to leave. If PD can secure the scene w/ regards for saftey they should be given this responsiblity while FD and EMS continues w/ extrication, patient, care, washdowns etc. It goes right back to what Chris192 and actually the whole purpose of the site is about, putting aside our egos and doing what each our services do best to work together for the best interest of those we serve!!

[Guest]

Okay Chris, I digress. I cannot site something that states who "owns" what. I will say though, I believe it is a fairly common idea that the police are responsible for the road, safety and other motorists, while the EMT/FD contingent is focused on the accident itself (not saying that PD is not concerned with the accident).

"owning" was a simple word. Clearly you don't own the road. Although, if I owned the road, there would be one hell of a toll on it. YEAH MONEY!

[robert benz 344]

ok not to get into a pissing match I HAVE SEEN AND BEEN INVOLVED WITH PD SCREAMING AT OFFICERS TO MOVE APPARATUS WHEN ONLY ONE LANE OF 3 WAS BLOCKED. HOW THE HELL DO YOU SAFELY BACKBOARD A PATIENT FROM THE DRIVERS SIDE WHILE ON THE SHOULDER OF THE ROAD WITHOUT BLOCKING THE RIGHT LANE WITH EMS AND FD PERSONAL PERFORMING EXTRICATION?

IF KEEPING TRAFFIC FLOWING IS SO DAMN IMPORTANT THEN WHY CAN THE ROAD BE SHUTDOWN FOR INVESTIGATIONS???? AND I KNOW THE ANSWER I FIND IT IRONIC THATS ALL.

FOR ALL THE CLOSECALLS AND WORKERS STRUCK PD SHOULD BE DEMANDING INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT CLOSING SOMETHING DOWN.

AND I ALSO KNOW IT IS A SMALL AMOUNT OF PD THAT CAUSE THE PROBLEM.

AND AS A SIDE NOTE EXCEPT FOR A COUPLE OF INCIDENTS THAT REQUIRED MEETINGS WITH SUPERVISIORS THE NEXT DAY, MOST INCIDENTS WHERE HANDLED ON SCENE WHERE THE COP COOLED DOWN AND ADMITTED HE OVER REACTED.

I HAVE 2 FIREFIGHTERS WHO GOT HIT BY A CAB AND SUFFERED NUMEROUS INJURIES AND NEVER CAME BACK TO DUTY. I WILL NEVER MOVE AN APPARATUS THAT IN MY OPINION IS PROTECTING THE SCENE

[Future Fireman 4]

All i gotta say is....I hope this stuff is sorted out before I join the career service.

Mike

[Guest]

well sometimes we don't have a engine on scene for an mva, so i either ask the pd or use the ambulance nose first to protect the crew. i've had pd say NO, in that case i request FD bc i know they will block the road for us. im sorry but traffic control is not my problem

[JCESU 20]

All I can say is that sometimes it works out when the FD uses their equipment to make a scene safe other times it doesn't. The problem comes when someone tells the dispatcher we have fluids on the ground and the FD dispatches "FIVE" pieces of equipment and a boss to throw down some kitty litter and then decide to have a Union meeting during and afterwards. Now we have traffic backed up to Georgia and all the problems associated with same. Sometimes people including the FD need to be motivated to accept constuctive criticism. Sometimes P.O.'s will tell another to move there vehicle because it is in the way etc.-most times this is not a problem. If the P.O. refuses to follow the suggestion then a Supvsr. is called for and let the progressive discipline begin. If a FF refuses then I issue a summons, if he escalates it to an arrest-thats fine too. I think the question before was who "Owns" the road? I think that it is self explanatory once you understand who has the "Authority" and who has a big red truck with lights all over it. Every situation is dynamic in nature. What may have been nescecarry upon arrival in order to asses the scene may not be needed at all. And we should all certainly work together-in thirteen years I have yet to see a problem between EMS and the PD here....wish I could say the same for the FD. I have locked up FF's in the past-and certainly didn't enjoy doing it. But when your challenged and left no choice....what can I tell ya.

Rick

[efd184 59]

am i understanding this correct that the police would actually arrest a fireman for not moving his engine because he feels it would help protect him??????????

is this a joke?

[5slow 9]

To address Bob directly. Why do they have to shut down a roadway for an investigation? If a roadway is completely shut down for an accident investigation, the accident then involved a fatality, a person seriously injured and likely to die or a crime. At that point, in all three scenarios, it's now a crime scene. Just like a shooting in a house or the street, we have to tape the area off and not allow anyone to corrupt the scene. If you continue to allow traffic through the area, then vital evidence in the crime scene might be lost. Until I became a supervisor I criticized Accident Investigations Units for just closing down the road, but now I've gone through more training, probably matured a little, and understand why.

All accidents are treated like "crime scenes", because the PO has to conduct an investigation into what has happened. Interviewing drivers, witnesses and completing PAR's.

As a volunteer firefighter and a police officer, there's nothing better than a ladder truck on the Major Deegan! I cannot argue those points and will definitely not argue that scene safety is not important. It's paramount! But as others have said in their posts, we all have to answer to someone and sometimes unnecesarily shutting down a roadway will cause more problems behind the scenes. The NJ case also sounds like some large egos bumping to me as well, but the PO/Trooper on scene is in charge.

[helicopper 1,050]

Okay Chris, I digress.  I cannot site something that states who "owns" what.  I will say though, I believe it is a fairly common idea that the police are responsible for the road, safety and other motorists, while the EMT/FD contingent is focused on the accident itself (not saying that PD is not concerned with the accident).

"owning" was a simple word.  Clearly you don't own the road.  Although, if I owned the road, there would be one hell of a toll on it.  YEAH MONEY!

←

I know you didn't mean "own" literally. It's just that alot of people run around making statements about this one is in charge or that one is the supreme high exalted ruler without anything to substantiate it. As a result alot of people come into emergency services with a flawed understanding of who is in fact responsible for what. That's my point.

ok  not to get into a pissing match  I HAVE SEEN AND BEEN INVOLVED WITH PD SCREAMING AT OFFICERS TO MOVE APPARATUS WHEN ONLY ONE LANE OF 3 WAS BLOCKED.  HOW THE HELL DO YOU SAFELY BACKBOARD A PATIENT FROM THE DRIVERS SIDE WHILE ON THE SHOULDER OF THE ROAD WITHOUT BLOCKING THE RIGHT LANE WITH EMS AND FD PERSONAL PERFORMING EXTRICATION? 

IF KEEPING TRAFFIC FLOWING IS SO DAMN IMPORTANT  THEN WHY CAN THE ROAD BE SHUTDOWN FOR INVESTIGATIONS????  AND I KNOW THE ANSWER I FIND IT IRONIC THATS ALL. 

FOR ALL THE CLOSECALLS AND  WORKERS STRUCK  PD SHOULD BE DEMANDING INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT CLOSING SOMETHING DOWN.

AND I ALSO KNOW IT IS A SMALL AMOUNT OF PD THAT CAUSE THE PROBLEM.

AND AS A SIDE NOTE EXCEPT FOR A COUPLE OF INCIDENTS THAT REQUIRED MEETINGS WITH SUPERVISIORS THE NEXT DAY, MOST INCIDENTS WHERE HANDLED ON SCENE WHERE THE COP COOLED DOWN AND ADMITTED HE OVER REACTED. 

I HAVE 2 FIREFIGHTERS WHO GOT HIT BY A CAB  AND SUFFERED NUMEROUS INJURIES AND NEVER CAME BACK TO DUTY. I WILL NEVER MOVE AN APPARATUS THAT IN MY OPINION IS PROTECTING THE SCENE

←

Bob, I certainly understand your frustration. I have friends that will never return to their careers because of accidents so I appreciate your position. When safety is a factor, by all means close it down. But when EMS leaves with the extricated victim, it's time to pack up the show. There's just no need to keep lanes closed longer than necessary. Why keep multiple resources tied up at an accident scene that is just waiting for a tow truck? It's the life cycle of an accident scene.

As for accident investigations, they account for probably 1-2% of all accidents so the closing of roads is reserved for when it is absolutely necessary and someone else already covered those situations.

I think we all agree that safety is first and foremost!

[robert benz 344]

To address Bob directly.  Why do they have to shut down a roadway for an investigation?  If a roadway is completely shut down for an accident investigation, the accident then involved a fatality, a person seriously injured and likely to die or a crime.  At that point, in all three scenarios, it's now a crime scene.  Just like a shooting in a house or the street, we have to tape the area off and not allow anyone to corrupt the scene.  If you continue to allow traffic through the area, then vital evidence in the crime scene might be lost.  Until I became a supervisor I criticized Accident Investigations Units for just closing down the road, but now I've gone through more training, probably matured a little, and understand why. 

All accidents are treated like "crime scenes", because the PO has to conduct an investigation into what has happened.  Interviewing drivers, witnesses and completing PAR's. 

As a volunteer firefighter and a police officer, there's nothing better than a ladder truck on the Major Deegan!  I cannot argue those points and will definitely not argue that scene safety is not important.  It's paramount!  But as others have said in their posts, we all have to answer to someone and sometimes unnecesarily shutting down a roadway will cause more problems behind the scenes.  The NJ case also sounds like some large egos bumping to me as well, but the PO/Trooper on scene is in charge.

←

i was just making a point about the road shut down for the investigation, i know the pd has a job to do. but it does seem ironic that when you have something to do hey no problem shut it down for hours, when in most cases and i am speaking about my area, i-95, hutch, we dont want to be on the road any longer than we have to. and there is nothing that even says we have to go on the major highways as far as i know. local pd doesnt go on the hutch or 95 as my boss once said let them break our stones too much and they can call the state fire dept to respond.

we usually have a good working relationship, all it takes is one guy who is having a bad day or bad attitude and all hell breaks loose.

and i understand a trooper has his orders to keep cars moving, hey the candian border is no place to get transfered to, thats why when it gets too bad and cant be resolved we call for a pd supervisior and a fd chief.

[5slow 9]

No problem Bob. I understand exactly what you're saying about one person having a bad day. I've seen plently of fights between ESU and FDNY and have also broken a few up myself. I've personally never had any issue with the FD on any scene. They have a job to do and I have a job to do. Pissing matches and arguing only keeps us there longer and no job is being done...

[INIT915 1,119]

...I HAVE SEEN AND BEEN INVOLVED WITH PD SCREAMING AT OFFICERS TO MOVE APPARATUS WHEN ONLY ONE LANE OF 3 WAS BLOCKED. 

FOR ALL THE CLOSECALLS AND  WORKERS STRUCK  PD SHOULD BE DEMANDING INSTEAD OF FIGHTING ABOUT CLOSING SOMETHING DOWN.

AND I ALSO KNOW IT IS A SMALL AMOUNT OF PD THAT CAUSE THE PROBLEM.

AND AS A SIDE NOTE EXCEPT FOR A COUPLE OF INCIDENTS THAT REQUIRED MEETINGS WITH SUPERVISIORS THE NEXT DAY, MOST INCIDENTS WHERE HANDLED ON SCENE WHERE THE COP COOLED DOWN AND ADMITTED HE OVER REACTED. 

←

Wow. I don't know where you work, but maybe all those "Cops" should be eating donoughts with less testostorone. They sound like animals down there!

I can honestly say, I have never been involved in a single 'argument'/shouting match' about opening/closing lanes. And I have never once had a Supervisor instruct me to get traffic moving.

[Guest bibbles10504]

am i understanding this correct that the police would actually arrest a fireman for not moving his engine because he feels it would help protect him??????????

is this a joke?

←

Haha, I hope the driver doesnt get arrested, then the engine will never move!

I think in general the PD and FD should counsult with each other to determine what the best thing to do in the situation is, and maybe compromise? There doesnt need to be a battle to get something done

[IzzyEng4 427]

In all my years with the fire service and also currently with CSP as a dispatcher, I've never had a problem with any trooper or even local officer about closing a lane or the road down, obviously depending on the situation. Let alone never heard of anything like this through out CT.

There are a lot of factors obviously what warrants a road / highway lane(s) to be shut down and making sure traffic either halts or flows through slowly. All the troopers that I have dealt with have always said the same thing, anyone working on the highway, safety is a major factor and everyone is on the same team. Heck I've seen FDs from towns on I-91 close a lane down and when CSP arrives, will close a second for them until it is deemed safe for cars to pass and obviously crews work quickly to elevate the hazard and get the road back open.

I can't understand the mentality in other states were people in FD's, PD's, EMS, DOT, or what ever don;t think were all on the same team. Unbelievable.

[Guest partyrock]

If you and PD ever disagree as to how much road you need closed, just have the officer come over and assist in packaging the patient. If they're willing to put their a** out in traffic like that, then I will not argue.

My personal opninion, I don't need more than a lane to operate in. If the car is on the shoulder you I don't need two lanes closed. If everyone is walking then keep the road open and i'll board you in the bus or on the shoulder.

The best way to keep cars from hitting you at an accident is to not be in the road.

[OnTheWheel 43]

I dont get why it always has to be a "pissing" match. It seems like a FEW people had a FEW incidents with a FEW cops who broke chops. Dont crucify all of us, because we all arent like that. Fire Fighters dont like the stereotype of being "drunks" because a few got locked up in a dwi!

I think if everyone worked together and set egos aside (easier said than done, i know) we'd be a lot safer and have a healthier working relationship. As far as "whos scene is it?", be careful what you wish for, you might not like what you all of a sudden "owned"

And as an AI i certainly appreciate when the fire apparatus stand by for lighting and such. As 5SLOW stated, they are crime scenes and we have a lot of responsibility on them. So while we're on the subject, at a serious MVA please:

Refrain from speedy dry until the scene has been measured etc. If needed, ie. at a storm drain, maybe dam that up

Dont kick anything thats on the ground

And please dont bring me the headlight from the side of the road and ask me if i need it!

Stay safe!

[robert benz 344]

I dont get why it always has to be a "pissing" match.  It seems like a FEW people had a FEW incidents with a FEW cops who broke chops.  Dont crucify all of us, because we all arent like that.  Fire Fighters dont like the stereotype of being "drunks" because a few got locked up in a dwi!

I think if everyone worked together and set egos aside (easier said than done, i know) we'd be a lot safer and have a healthier working relationship.  As far as "whos scene is it?", be careful what you wish for, you might not like what you all of a sudden "owned" 

And as an AI i certainly appreciate when the fire apparatus stand by for lighting and such.  As 5SLOW stated, they are crime scenes and we have a lot of responsibility on them.  So while we're on the subject, at a serious MVA please:

Refrain from speedy dry until the scene has been measured etc. If needed, ie. at a storm drain, maybe dam that up

Dont kick anything thats on the ground

And please dont bring me the headlight from the side of the road and ask me if i need it! 

Stay safe!

←

ok officer, i have plenty of friends who are cops and i respect your job i dont want it!!! how would you feel if i came on the scene and started yelling at you to move your police car cus i didnt like where you parked it. i dont tell you how to do your job, i just have an obligation to my crew and my self to get everyone home in one piece and the safest way to do that is to block a lane if i need it.

i am not talking about an officer who calmly asks how much longer till i can get the road open i am talking about a full fledged screaming match

one other point i want to make, as this was mentioned somewhere in this whole thread we dont take our apparatus off road onto soft shoulders just so a car can get by, we keep the rubber on the road. i have seen too many apparatus get stuck in the mud to ever advise my drivers to get onto the soft shoulder.

like i said earlier it isnt ALL PD but dont you guys want to go home after every shift too?

[JCESU 20]

am i understanding this correct that the police would actually arrest a fireman for not moving his engine because he feels it would help protect him??????????

is this a joke?

←

Perhaps my response came off a bit too terse and I apologize if it did so. Let me try and explain a little better.

Common sense is not common. Regardless of what kind of uniform you wear (Police included). I have seen my guys do things over the years where I wanted to crawl under a rock I was so embarrased.

Our jobs have the same ends but most of the time a different means of getting there...If I am told by a Supvsr. or if I make a decision that something has to be moved then it has to be carried out. I usually don't have a choice and that means if I go over to the chauffer of an engine etc. and explain to him the situation and he tells me to go pound salt or walks away and ignore's what I am telling him...he is escalating the situation. The next step will be to ask for his credentials and his supervisor. If he still is still ignorant then it will escalate to an arrest for obstructing.

And yes it has been done in the past and I would continue to do my job as long as I am within the law. Now I would have to be an EDP to have them move a truck that is protecting myself and/or any other emergency workers. Why would I want to jeopardize my safety etc.? But some guys do things just because they can.

I would certainly never pretend to know what the job of a FF is truly like or downplay the deserved herosim that goes with it..... most P.O.'s with any time on the job are going to be passive and explanative especially when dealing with a FF or EMT and I would hope the public in general. But where would we be if we just walked away with our tail between our legs if I asked someone to do something that was jeopardizing the safety of emergency workers and the public. It just can't be.

There has to be mutual respect and there is no better feeling then resuming from a job where everyone worked together with seamless-positive results. But I will say that 80% of the time any confrontation at a job happens its because there was verbal or even sometimes physical (if you can imagine) abuse toward P.O.'s or EMS. And usually its anymosity over who should be providing patient care or which agency is doing the cutting etc. or some other silly bravado. If you have a great rapport inter agency thats great! We do too-but not always.

On the Wheel makes excellent points and thats stuff that happens at most scenes. It can be frustrating.

Rick

[R1SmokeEater 359]

"....if I go over to the chauffer of an engine etc. and explain to him the situation and he tells me to go pound salt or walks away and ignore's what I am telling him...he is escalating the situation......"

-I will make a quick comment on this, cause I have been there.We have our chain-of-command also, and when we are given an order by a Lt. ,Capt. or Chief to place the rig there, and a Officer comes over and asks to move the apparatus, they should understand that if the chauffer just gets in and moves the rig he is disobeying an order from his superior. It is not up to him to decide to jump in and move it, the PD should understand that he/she should check with the FD Company's Officer.- Does this make sense ?

[Guest bibbles10504]

Seems like a simple solution.... if the rig is in the way, and the Police wants it moved and goes up to the driver and tells him to move it even though his chief said to keep it there because he wants to block the scene. What is wrong with just sending the PO up the chain of command and say "I can't you'll have to go talk to the chief, he's right over there" I dont see how anyone can have a problem with that.

[Guest]

First off, whether it's 1, 2, or 3 lanes of traffic shut down to make a scene safe for all emergency personnel operating so be it. Who cares about inconveniencing the rest of the motorists, even if their vehicle does overheat! That's Life! These are the same jackasses that slow down to look at a fender bender anyway, backing up traffic for miles even when there are no emergency vehicles on scene. Secondly, while I'm all in favor of dual response on the highways, nothing frustrates me more than commiting apparatus to an mva on these roadways, only to find out your not needed once again, because as usual, the other agency got the call 2-5 minutes before you, and have already taken care of the situation, which 98% of the time seems to be another whiplash(b/s lawsuit) injury, even if that. Here's a bright idea fellows: How about the first agency on scene notify their Dispatch or the neighboring FD directly via County Radio, advising whether their services are needed. This way a Dept. doesn't commit apparatus to an already gridlocked condition, tying them up, hence increasing their response time to a subsequent call in their 1st due territory, which has happened on more than one occassion. Nothing worse than being on a highway and not being able to immediately respond to a working job especially in your response area because your stuck in traffic for some b/s mva that another agency is already handling or because you now have to travel 2-3 miles further on the highway into another juristiction to get back to yours. We all need to communicate better. Make Sense? PS. Less FD apparatus on the highways, less chance of potential confrontations with our brothers in Blue.

[khas143 13]

Can someone answer me this question? Why is it that when as a P.O. you call for an ambulance the entire damn fire department shows up. If I needed F.D. I would have called for it. I don't need an engine, ladder, and rescue to assist EMS in dealing with a bad case of allstateitis.

[ja3kfd 34]

Can someone answer me this question? Why is it that when as a P.O. you call for an ambulance the entire damn fire department shows up. If I needed F.D. I would have called for it. I don't need an engine, ladder, and rescue to assist EMS in dealing with a bad case of allstateitis.

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In our Response area if it is an MVA with injuries ALS is dispatched when that is done they dispatch the FD, we do not run an Ambulance done by a seperate agency, if a Chief gets there and we are not needed he will divert and or cancel us, if we beat him there we will do it. Are the agency's your dealing with Fd and Ambulance together?

[capt2102 64]

Capt Benz... In answer to your question "Do we have the legal right to close the lanes of traffic ?" My answer is you have more than the legal right, you have a DUTY and obligation to do what is necessary. I know you Bob and you are not an over the top kind of fire officer. your job is to protect your men and the victims of the accident. Yes you need more than 3 feet of safety zone between you and moving traffic. Who could work in this unsafe area?

I have a 50 mile commute to work, and when the DOT cuts grass, does pothole repair or guardrail repair they shut down the lane and park 3 or more LARGE trucks behind them. In Connecticut they also get a State Trooper. I have had very few problems over the years with PD, but it does happen. My advise... explain the reason for your actions, if that's not enough it's his problem not yours.

[Guest loudog]

Years ago we used to have problem about closing the road on the interstate in our town. I can remember almost being hit by a car as I was backing out of the smoke during a car fire because nobody would even divert traffic a little. In the last few years the PD, whether State, Local, County have been really, really, cooperative. It's amazing how much better it's become. Most of the officers have no problem with what you do if you just give 'em a heads up on your game plan. If you're working on the shoulder you still need to close at least one lane. Remember it was only a few years ago that a State Trooper was tragically killed sitting on the shoulder with his lights going when his Crown Vic. got hammered from behind. Our local PD had an officer get struck by a car while directing traffic at a minor accident, and by a car he waved through. Next time your at an MVA and you get a second, watch the cars as they go by. You'll notice most of the drivers are watching the action, not the road. Even at 70 mph.

[Guest firepete265]

It is for everyones saftey that lanes be closed, no matter who closes them. i have not seen a fight between FD and PD over lanes, but i have heard of them, however in the city (or at least the bronx) when FD has a job, we just close whatever road we have to. if we have to close 5 blocks, so be it. if FD wants more closed, we do it. the other motorists should not be of major concern, just the people(civilian or mos) at the scene. Plus FDNY and NYPD are the 2 biggest rivals i know, and we rarely ever have any problems at a scene. i can only recall a few incidents between ESU and FD and HIGHWAY and FD, thats all. its all about working together and everyones safety.