Disability Pension and Active Interior FF - Fraud?

[mfc2257 464]

I think there's a big difference in the requirements placed on a volunteer firefighter versus a career firefighter in a department like FDNY. It is entirely possible that a person could be disability retired from FDNY and still able to perform as an interior firefighter in a small....

Yes a FDNY MOS might be expected to climb 20 stories on a routine basis but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of FF fatalities due to heart attack, even amongst large city FD's, don't happen on highrise jobs. Why? Because there just aren't a ton of highrise jobs to begin with. Most fires are occurring in mid/low rise residential which is not exclusive to city FD's. This being said the chances of Joe Vollie rolling up on a third floor taxpayer apartment in Dobbs Ferry, Ossining etc. and suffering an MI are as good as a City brother doing the same in Queens or the Bronx. The effort required to put out those fires is the same thus the risk is similar as well. So why should it be accepted that someone of lesser health can do equal work at an equal job just because it's not in a city where a handfull of companies climb more than 6-8 stories on a regular basis?

[FireMedic049 597]

Fire medic read all my posts before you call me out on them... There is a big difference from a disability that you can rehabilitate such as an amputated leg but when your chief is waiting for a transplanted heart and he's disabled cause of that you are gonna count on him? Cause I know sure as he'll that I won't trust him with my back. Keep in mind adrenaline makes the heart pump more blood through your body so if his heart can't handle walking dont think it will handle a fire

I did read your posts first and I just re-read them and have concluded that whatever issue you have with what I posted is based on you poorly conveying your message. In post #7 you appear to be discussing two separate situations and then in post #9 you appear to be mixing the two situations and discussing them as one IMO. Because of this, it didn't seem as though the 2 posts were specifically connected and my post was specifically in response to the post I quoted, which appeared to be insinuating some sort of increased risk of heart attack among firefighters on disability vs those not on disability rather than clearly showing that your comment was in reference to a specific person who was "disabled" due to a significant heart condition and still operating as a firefighter.

[The Axe 8]

I think there's a big difference in the requirements placed on a volunteer firefighter versus a career firefighter in a department like FDNY. It is entirely possible that a person could be disability retired from FDNY and still able to perform as an interior firefighter in a small community like mine. There are several injuries or work related illnesses that might cause a doctor to say that a person cannot meet the demands of the FDNY job but could still do it in a department that does 150 calls per year, only a couple of which are actually fire-related. An FDNY firefighter might be expected to routinely climb 20 flights of stairs in full gear and be able to perform his full functions whereas my department may only expect a firefighter to be able to climb 3 flights of stairs and do the job. A small department may only require you to be able to perform firefighting functions for an hour at a clip while FDNY might require you to be on your feet for 12 hours running calls.

Many people have complained both on here and even on the state level about "different qualifications" and that firefighter is a single job description. Different communities have different needs and thus different requirements for their firefighters. I don't claim for a second that I could go down to FDNY and do the job but I'm pretty damn sure I can do it in my community. Saying that it's only "one job" is like requiring any car mechanic to have the ability of a NASCAR pit crew member.

Your saying a structure fire in the city is different then in the suburbs? Are you for real!

A fire is a fire period! A fire in the burbs is just as real as in the city!!

[FireMedic049 597]

Your saying a structure fire in the city is different then in the suburbs? Are you for real!

A fire is a fire period! A fire in the burbs is just as real as in the city!!

You're correct that the fire "in the burbs is just as real" as a fire in the city. However, a structure fire in the city can most definitely be different than one in the suburbs.

If you build the exact same house in both locations with the exact same furnishings and set the exact same fire in both, then both houses should burn exactly the same. However, the reality is that you probably won't find the exact same houses in both. You also have to consider other factors, like the fact that a house in the suburbs is much more likely to not have a significant exposure issue to contend with. In the city, that isn't that common. So, that exact same fire in the burbs is held to that house with maybe some damaged siding to an exposure since the houses are not super close together, whereas the one in the city could easily have another building within 2-3 feet of it on both sides and a significant fire could quickly spread creating a much different fire to deal with.

You're comments strike me as a person who feels "slighted" at the notion that your fires (the suburbs) aren't the same as the big city because it means that you, your fires, your department, etc. are somehow "inferior". I feel that those feelings are often misplaced in these types of discussions because "different" means "not the same" and not "inferior" or "superior".

[FFLieu 70]

How can someone be retired collecting a disability pension and still be a full duty interior firefighter?

Is this illegal?

Yes.

[The Axe 8]

You're correct that the fire "in the burbs is just as real" as a fire in the city. However, a structure fire in the city can most definitely be different than one in the suburbs.

If you build the exact same house in both locations with the exact same furnishings and set the exact same fire in both, then both houses should burn exactly the same. However, the reality is that you probably won't find the exact same houses in both. You also have to consider other factors, like the fact that a house in the suburbs is much more likely to not have a significant exposure issue to contend with. In the city, that isn't that common. So, that exact same fire in the burbs is held to that house with maybe some damaged siding to an exposure since the houses are not super close together, whereas the one in the city could easily have another building within 2-3 feet of it on both sides and a significant fire could quickly spread creating a much different fire to deal with.

You're comments strike me as a person who feels "slighted" at the notion that your fires (the suburbs) aren't the same as the big city because it means that you, your fires, your department, etc. are somehow "inferior". I feel that those feelings are often misplaced in these types of discussions because "different" means "not the same" and not "inferior" or "superior".

You obviously have no clue about firefighting! There are plenty of apartment buildings, businesses and small homes that have exposure issues in Westchester county. It's not all big mansions surrounded by woods.

Either your capable of gearing up and fighting a fire or your not!

[Dinosaur 844]

I think there's a big difference in the requirements placed on a volunteer firefighter versus a career firefighter in a department like FDNY. It is entirely possible that a person could be disability retired from FDNY and still able to perform as an interior firefighter in a small community like mine. There are several injuries or work related illnesses that might cause a doctor to say that a person cannot meet the demands of the FDNY job but could still do it in a department that does 150 calls per year, only a couple of which are actually fire-related. An FDNY firefighter might be expected to routinely climb 20 flights of stairs in full gear and be able to perform his full functions whereas my department may only expect a firefighter to be able to climb 3 flights of stairs and do the job. A small department may only require you to be able to perform firefighting functions for an hour at a clip while FDNY might require you to be on your feet for 12 hours running calls.

What do you base this on? If this is the case why is there a national FF training curriculum? Using your logic there should be different training programs for urban FF, suburban FF, and rural FF but there aren't. Being a firefighter is dangerous no matter where you do it. In 2009 there were more fatalities among volunteer FF than career so your theory is wrong. According to the USFA, for the decade 2000-2009, there were more volunteer FF deaths than career FF deaths.

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/ff_fat09.pdf

Many people have complained both on here and even on the state level about "different qualifications" and that firefighter is a single job description. Different communities have different needs and thus different requirements for their firefighters. I don't claim for a second that I could go down to FDNY and do the job but I'm pretty damn sure I can do it in my community. Saying that it's only "one job" is like requiring any car mechanic to have the ability of a NASCAR pit crew member.

Here's the problem. You think you're good enough the way you are and you don't need to train to the standard but that's dangerous and ill advised. You should always strive to be better and the training standards need to be consistent. Where do you draw the line? Ventilation training? Search training? FAST/RIT training? LDH training? What do you cut because you don't need to be a FDNY guy? So FDNY guys should learn how to bailout from a dangerous environment but you don't have to? Try telling that to your insurance company and see what they say.

If you're going to create classes of FF with urban career being 1st class and suburban career being 2nd class and suburban/rural volunteer being 3rd class you don't need a single set of standards. But I'm sure that we don't want different classes because we've been fighting for too long to be considered equals.

All mechanics can change a tire. A NASCAR mechanic can do it in 10 seconds. A regular mechanic can do it in 10 minutes. Does this mean they got different training or they just drill differently? They drill differently.

[Dinosaur 844]

You're correct that the fire "in the burbs is just as real" as a fire in the city. However, a structure fire in the city can most definitely be different than one in the suburbs.

If you build the exact same house in both locations with the exact same furnishings and set the exact same fire in both, then both houses should burn exactly the same. However, the reality is that you probably won't find the exact same houses in both. You also have to consider other factors, like the fact that a house in the suburbs is much more likely to not have a significant exposure issue to contend with. In the city, that isn't that common. So, that exact same fire in the burbs is held to that house with maybe some damaged siding to an exposure since the houses are not super close together, whereas the one in the city could easily have another building within 2-3 feet of it on both sides and a significant fire could quickly spread creating a much different fire to deal with.

You're comments strike me as a person who feels "slighted" at the notion that your fires (the suburbs) aren't the same as the big city because it means that you, your fires, your department, etc. are somehow "inferior". I feel that those feelings are often misplaced in these types of discussions because "different" means "not the same" and not "inferior" or "superior".

I don't know about the inferior thing but there are differences in both environments that create advantages and challenges. Access, water supply, exposures, etc. all change the dynamics and we need to be ready to respond to both.

[Alpinerunner 61]

I think there's a big difference in the requirements placed on a volunteer firefighter versus a career firefighter in a department like FDNY. It is entirely possible that a person could be disability retired from FDNY and still able to perform as an interior firefighter in a small community like mine.

Very true. I think the key issue is that the doctors from his career department made him retire. If he faked something and swore that he was in some sort of respiratory distress or had chronic back pain or something and he was relieved of his duty due to his word, then there is fraud. But if the career department's own doctors kicked him out then they can't tell him how to live his life. How is that fair if it wasn't his call to leave? They can unilaterally retire him AND then dictate what he does for the rest of his life?

I'm not going to pretend to know all the ins and outs of the law here, but it certainly isn't moral fraud and isn't wrong.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Alpinerunner

[Guest Woodscutter]

Bottom line personally I think if someone is on disability from the state or from a paid department they shouldn't be allowed to participate as a full duty interior volunteer firefighter department. Dosent seem right nor fair to people that still have to work. I think the only exception is if your on disability for something you can rehabilitate such as a lost leg

[The Axe 8]

I also feel that being retired on a disability pension means you are retired. No, ifs or buts about it.

If your unable to perform your duties as a career firefighter then the same goes for the

volunteer fire service. If your retired on a disability from any job you shouldn't be in the

volunteer fire service. If you can't be a truck driver and lift more then 10lbs but you can

drive an emergency vehicle and gear up? Something is very wrong with that!

Don't care if your a firefighter or a chief you don't belong being in the volunteer

fire service if your on a disability pension. Unfortunately this does happen and

goes ignored by the powers that be.

[rayrider 94]

Sorry but there isn't very many functions as or more rigorous then structural firefighting. If you can do that then you can work and earn your money not mine.

How about working off the line in a staff position? Never met a retired FDNY member that was not on a disability pension. Just saying.

[rockl3 1]

who determines how they get the disability where i come from u have to see state doctors and city doctors and usually the state give u the disability and the citywill fight it so most of the people wiilget the state portion and not the cities

[FireMedic049 597]

You obviously have no clue about firefighting! There are plenty of apartment buildings, businesses and small homes that have exposure issues in Westchester county. It's not all big mansions surrounded by woods.

On the contrary, I very much have a clue about firefighting, however I'll admit that I do not have a clue about Westchester County, but was in no way specifically referring to it with my comments. I was also not discussing "big mansions surrounded by woods" with my comments.

Either your capable of gearing up and fighting a fire or your not!

Agreed.

[FireMedic049 597]

I don't know about the inferior thing but there are differences in both environments that create advantages and challenges. Access, water supply, exposures, etc. all change the dynamics and we need to be ready to respond to both.

Agreed and that's part of my point - there are differences in urban, suburban, rural & industrial firefighting. The mere existence of differences does not mean there is a superior/inferior relationship among them, however I've seen many a person who seems to think it does and because they aren't career/urban firefighters they think it puts them on the inferior side.