aviator70

One word, NOPE!

A plane can crash anywhere, anytime, even if a plane never goes over your jurisdiction. I am not sure anybody can ever be fully prepared, buy any and all preparation can help. I work in Emergency Services and Aviation. One important thing that all departments should be familiar with is the requirements set forth by the FAA ans NTSB in regards to handling accident scenes. NTSB 830 is a good place to start. There are laws and rules, especially that the wreckage can not be disturbed anymore then needed to save life and property. Years ago I saw Emergency Services workers rummaging through wreckage and moving wreckage to get a better "view"

The airport does have an approved plan in place but this accident wasn't on the airport property so it really didn't apply. It sounds like the plan was implemented early on but the jurisdictions involved had final authority over the scene, not the county airport.

The airport response and FAA regulations that they're based on have absolutely nothing to do with this tragic accident.

Agreed.

Coming from a small background in Flight Ops when I went to school... Why is Westchester County the only airport that I know of, to list the Alert as the number of souls aboard the craft? Normally the Alert is defined in the FAR's (which is the governing body of flight rules, like OSHA is for safety) as:

Alert 1 - Plane is in the air reporting an emergency - crash is possible i.e. systems still functional, yet experiencing an minor emergency - stand by in quarters (or at the entrance to the field)

Alert 2 - Plane is in the air reporting an emergency - crash is probable i.e. loss of system powers, major system failure - respond and stand-by at the runway

Alert 3 - Crash has, or will definitely occur either at or in close proximity to the airport

Levels are to identify the response based off of souls. If my memory serves me correctly:

Level 1 is 1-2 souls

Level 2 is 3-10

Level 3 is 11-20 (or 25 i cannot remember)

Level 4 is ? - 50

Level 5 is 51+

Shouldn't the dispatch information come across as Alert 3, level 2, instead of Alert Level 2 which it was dispatched as? Since I come from both sides of the house, flight and emergency response, I'm just trying to figure out (and I'm not criticizing anyone) when 60-control dispatches an Alert Level 2, are they giving the information in red or green out?

Because Westchester does everything backward and changes only after everybody else changes. County PD just went Plain English, FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Westchester always has to be different.

Isnt the internet grand. I had no idea how much fuel was in it, until I googled it and found 3 different sites that listed 28 gallons. I gues they were wrong. So a single saddle tank leaking/on fire on a truck needs 8 engines?

Yes I have read it and commented on it many times. It has evolved, but just because the FAA agreed on it does not even make it an acceptable plan. In past versions the FAA said it was ok, with 18 fire trucks and 1 ambulance responding to a confirmed crash of a commercial airliner....only 1 ambulance ("becuase we do not want to strip communities of EMS"). Another version determined that we would not need EMS because they never came to the planning meetings...oh "We forgot to tell them there were meetings".

Flight 232 in Souix City moved 60+ patients off the field in about an hour. Every drill we have had got stopped 90-120 minutes in with no more than a dozen transported because we were taxing our responders.

You are correct. The FAA knows nothing about putting a plan together like this. It is not their business. In reality, the FAA only cares about what happens on the airfield with planning. I am familiar with the plan, but not who and how it was developed. It may be overkill in cases with small aircraft like this. I would not personally be willing to make that call or claim though as I am not familar with its development.

I completely agree with you. The Strikers are self-sufficient, water hauling, monsters with so many capabilities, it is a shame that they don't respond to more incidents off-field. And the airport is more than capable of sending at least one CFR apparatus off site. Note we have 2 Strikers, and we meet the FAA standard for HPN's ARFF index with just 1 truck.

I would love to see more responses to off site incidents, unfortunately there's a bit of red tape in the way.

Nice trucks, much better then what we had when I was there. That is awesome you can meet the Index with 1 truck. We had to roll 2, and had a "backup" (LOL!) if needed.

Cessna 210 holds 28 gallons of gas???? Wrong. More like between 60 and 70 gallons. Bottom line is the County Airport has a plan in place, approved by the FAA, and the plan was put into place as seen fit by the county, right, wrong, no matter what it was. Sadly, 4 people lost their lives, including 2 young girls. Hopefully as soon as the units realized they were not needed, sadly, they departed back to their respectful districts and did not "stick" around for the sake of "sticking: around or "taking a look". One thing that many need to realize is that the airport response is set and agreed upon with the FAA. They do not do it like others in the emergency services do. It may not be relevant in this case as it is off airport.

Do the response time requirements still exist? When I was there, it was 3 minutes for the first truck and 4 minutes for the 2nd truck.

Federal Aviation Regulation FAR139 - Certification and Operations: Land Airports Serving Certain Air Carriers

Specifically, 139.315 states the Index of the airport's operational needs for ARFF equipment, in which case Westchester is Index B. The aircraft that decides this for HPN is the Airbus A320, flown by jetBlue at 123' long. FAR 139.317 determines how many pieces of apparatus the airport needs and how much water, foam, and dry-chem the apparatus must carry. Technically, Westchester can remain open to air carrier/airline operations with one of our trucks, thus be capable of allowing a truck to respond off field if necessary. Even with the tactical capabilities of the trucks the airport is still limited to the fact that it only operates a fire brigade, similar to that at the Grasslands Reservation in Valhalla.

Now let's put it this way: If the airport had all 3 vehicles in service at all times, HPN would meet the requirement for the next index up ©. If the airfield was capable of these operations (and it's not) we would see aircraft like the Boeing 757.

The easiest way to this info is http://www.flightsim...S/part_139.html , and Subpart D has all the information.

You are correct, if they had 3 manned pieces and can meet the time requirements. They always had 2 (and a very old spare that never worked) Also, is that 3rd piece manned? I believe not, and it in the maintenance area, and can they apparatus respond within the 3 and 4 minute requirements? Maybe, maybe not, and yes, they operate as a brigade. While the equipment is top notch, is has limitations as does the fire brigade.

As stated one of the CFR trucks was there for a short time but returned to the airport pretty quickly once it was determined where the crash was and that it wouldn't be useful. Pity other resources don't return as quickly when they're not needed.

I understand that is the policy but I've seen them respond to many off-field crashes over the years - all very close to the airport. Given the capabilities of one of those trucks, I personally think it is a good idea to let it go to an off-field crash that is in close proximity. It used to be a part of the airport plan years ago when it was broken up differently than today. There was a section for crash off-site - proximal (or words to that effect).

I too worked for Airport Ops many years ago and drove the ARFF trucks. Once those ARFF truicks leave the property, the airport is closed to certain types of operations as air carrier ops require ARFF at the field. They need to get them back in service ASAP to get the airport open again.

The photo provided by Alpinerunner is the POV operated by the Chief of the Kiryas Joel FD, picture is about 3 years old. I'm not saying it wasn't this vehicle, however the previous post speculating on the non-existence of DOH stickers are not required on a vehicle operated by a fire chief. Kiryas Joel FD & Kiryas Joel EMS aside from being in the same village and dispatch agency are completely separate agencies and operate very different. I know many FD members around Kiryas Joel, and they have no complaints about dangerous operation at or enroute to fire scenes, and notify the county on every call so that anyone outside the village who called the KJ 7-digit, still gets the proper FD dispatched.

I live in the area also, and I have heard MANY complaints. I guess it depends on who you talk to and where you live. I can tell you that in fact they do self-dispatch, when they are sitting in Kiryas Joel and listening to a police scanner and hear a call 20 miles away, and then they call dispatch to say they are enroute without being asked to respond, that is self-dispatching. And I also know of several localities that are not happy when they ride up onto their scene uninvited or requested.

They break the law all the time! I see them hauling butt lights and siren up and down the thruway and 17 everyday, most likely on transports, and I still have no idea who and what gives them the right to self-dispatch to calls out of their jurisdiction, sometimes WAY out of their jurisdiction. And yes, they have a State Police Liason, which is crazy within itself, and yes, they will walk pretty much unscathed, as usual.

Didn't you move in 2008, right before the economy tanked? How did you select Austin, TX?

By the way, the story is on the front page.

Austin, TX is ranked one of the best places to live in the USA.

Seth made a good decicsion, hopefully I will not too be too many years behind him. I look what my friends have in NC, SC and Texas, and what I have, it is sickening what I pay for the same things versus what they pay.

I find it hard to believe that Yonkers residents pay an additional tax to live in Yonkers and they can not make ends meet. Something not right here.

I do not want bias since I wrote the IA. I will try to find a ATC Clip of the audio. On the bottom of the flight tracker page, the graph with the two lines, One is speed, One is Altitude. The abrupt loss of speed, when they went from 425 knots to 220 knots, that is when they lost the engine. They were at 35,000ft when this happened. The zig zag on the map is not representative of the loss of the engine, rather just the planned flight path. If you zoom in, the dotted blue line is the intened flight path, as assigned by ATC. All planes with 2 engines can do fine, with just 1 engine. For this flight, he was probably within guiding distance to HPN. If he choose a closer airport, he would of had to done a rapid descent. Also, keep in mind, this is when atlantic city, newark, LGA and JFK and a lot of others were closed for snow removal.

As a pilot, I also questioned this. Is it normal, probably not, but there could have been several issues including airport closures, etc....White Plains was open much sooner than most. That aircraft is more then capable, and required to, fly on 1 engine. Is it prudent when you lose 1 to continue on that far, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on a variety of factors.

Code 3 Collectibles on line. There used to be a place in Valhalla called Westchester Collectibles, not sure if they are still there. They used to have lots of neat things.

Dude, I'm only going by what you wrote. You said "all" and went on to talk about the importance of a prompt response for our loved ones so it appeared that you did in fact mean ALL.

I know, I did not say what I meant clearly, my fault. Sorry. I was trying to say something but could not find a way to get across what I wanted to say easily and clearly, and w/o writing a book. My apologies for jumping down you throat. Poor wording on my part.

Herein lies one of the fundamental issues with the way we all operate. If the FD isn't on scene yet, the PD is the IC and the general consensus is (from this and other threads) that this IC can't cancel resources that aren't needed. Only the FD can cancel FD resources, right? You'll trust us when we say the fire is fully involved but if we say it is unfounded, you're still coming?

As for the food on stove example, I am only referring to car accidents - not fire calls - because there is definite merit to having the FD investigate a call where there was a fire or smoke condition. As for the accident, if there is no injury, just property damage, why wouldn't you go back?

All auto accidents? Seriously? If the FD responded to all auto accidents they'd need a lot more companies because they'd all be committed to those responses all day long. On an average rainy day there may be 20 accidents in a given shift (sometimes way more) but only a fraction of them involve injuries. Using your rationale we should replace every HELP truck with an ambulance because the taxpayers are entitled to an EMS response to every accident. That just doesn't make sense. Almost every dispatch agency I'm aware of will err on the side of caution and assign EMS/FD based on the number of calls or information received but to send them on everything just doesn't make sense.

I don't want anyone to die because of an inappropriate response but if we're going to start banging that drum we should focus on making sure every response is timely and with a professional and well-trained crew.

I did not mean every auto accident literally! Come on now, lets have common sense prevail here. If it is an obvious fender bender, then of course I would not think the FD would respond. Dispatchers can get a good sense of the situation in the phone calls and number of phone calls. But if there is doubt, send them.

They should roll to all auto accidents. The taxpayers pay for the service, and are entitled to it, and until it is known for fact they are not needed, they should be on the way, I think the post above is very well put on how they are dispatched, using various levels of seriousness to tone out what kind of response it should be. Would you want your loved one to die because the FD did not roll because somebody who may have no professional knowledge or expertise or who did not report that there was an injury involved and there was a delay in the response???? Yes, there is risk, there is risk in everything we all do, you can help reduce risk, but never eliminate it. I also understand the money and manpowe issues, and certainly sympathize with all, but, this is what some of us volunteer or are paid to do.

I too am split on this... I do not know how many MVA's FDNY responds to every year year, but I imagine billing for these calls would bring in a good chunk of revenue.

I believe Westport FD (Connecticut) bills non-residents who are involved in MVA's and require FD assistance.

Billing non-residence is BS too! Think about how stupid this is. The only way to make it fair would be that everybody gets billed for these services everywhere. So if a resident ot Town X needs help in Westport and gets a bill, then the person from Westport who needs help where the resdent from Town X lives, and Town X does not bill, then the Westport resident should get services free???? Want it to be fair, you bill our residents, we bill yours. This is just out of control BS.

Here is another thing to think about, it costs money to collect this money. Did the rocket scientists Bloomberg see if it wil cost more to collect then they will collect???? Crazy!

We are being lead down a road of failure and this country is falling apart at its seams. This isnot what the founding fathers wanted for this country.

It's B.S...............What do the city residents pay their taxes for...........and when does the "Taxing" end?????????????? Bloomberg should never have been allowed to buy his 3rd term..............

Sure is BS! Lets see how many others follow. Taxes are collected to pay for these services. Thsi is just another money grab by goverment to fill the financial void created by them. I agree, where and when does it end? Next comes a surcharge then a surcharge on a surcharge. Out of control. An dBloomberg, lets all hope and pray he never runs or gets elected as President!

The Town of Ossining police department's phones were taken over by Westchester County Police, the first step in the takeover of the entire department.

"Any calls that come into our main line, is going to get forwarded to Westchester County Department of Public Safety," Ossining police sergeant Vincent Ragaini. "It's a call for service, they simply dispatch our unit to the call."

Ragaini, who will soon be in a county police uniform, says Ossining residents will barely notice the change.

"They'll be no disruption in police , no slow down in police service," said Ragaini.

The takeover is expected to save the Town of Ossining about $900,000.

http://newyork.cbslo...g-police-dept/#

No need for apologies Seth.

I drove through here about 20 minutes before from Westchester to Chester in Orange Couinty. Lots of traffic heading East towards Westchester, apple and pumpkin pickers and leave watchers.