Bnechis

first off wow, there is a lot of talk goin on in here, especially from people that are not from any of the departments that respond to the airport,

Just because we do not respond to WC Airport, does not mean we do not have the background to be here.

the same dispatch goes to the airport at anytime for even if any plane has just a warning light on the control panel, i am not goin to speak for purchase or armonk who are the other depts dispatched 1st due on the airport but as for pc we send the same assignment all the time and we dont deplete our department of our resources or man power we still leave plenty of apparatus and manpower behind to handle any of our own calls,

PCFD has much better capabilities than most VFD's and this response does not strip the community to the same extent as others.

if DES or the airport thought there was a reason to make changes in the response then they would def be the people to make those decisions being they prob know a hell of a lot more then anybody in any of the surrounding depts which is why they are in charge.

Who is incharge? I thought it was the airport operator, until they pass command to the IC. DES always has claimed that they support that, but are not incharge. In the past the response plan was developed by the 3 fire depts that the airport falls within their districts plus airport ops and the MA coordinator for the airport. The last plan I saw (do not know if it is the current one or not) has only had minor changes over the years, and few had to do with the fire dept response.

why not stick with the better safe then sorry, its true, you can be responding to the airport for the same thing light on the dash again damn, then all the sudden that plane crashes, and its chaos fires, injuries, extrications, plane parts all over the place, people in the woods bodies and so on, the point is you never know, it could be just the small 1 or 2 passenger plane that crashes in the trees now you need the manpower and personel to do a search for that person

Besides my original question of should there be different levels of response based on the potential hazards, sending "additional" apparatus (if not needed) increases the risk to all members and the public. Another issue if everyone is staged in the airport, they are way out of position if the aircraft does not make it to the runway. I remember a small plane that landed (by mistake) on the grass at SUNY, right next door, but from the airport you need to go almost all the way back to PFD's house to get to SUNY. How many aircraft have gone down in the lake, or as someone pointed out what if the plane crashes into a building...my what if is they miss the building, but hit the staging area.

everybody can criticize all they want if you really think some of these changes should be made and they bother you personally then you should do whatever you can to make your words heard maybe try to be one involved in the decisions made by DES and others involved paid to make these decisions

About 13 years ago, I asked why the response plan only sent 1 BLS ambulance but 16 fire trucks and was told by the experts that they did not want to strip the communities of ambulances, I was also told the EMS never came to the meetings so they were not included in the plan (it was later determined that PC/R/RB & HVAC had never been invited). Much to the regrete of a number of people I made my concerns well known. And after "making my voice heard" The airport bought the MCI trailer, rewrote parts of the plan and held a number of training workshops then another drill. Major improvements were made. That does not mean it can be better.

I put my original post up to simply question the status quo. I'm not saying the plan is right or wrong, I'm saying keep evaluating and re-evaluating the way we are doing things. And asking the questions "why" (do we do it like this or not like that) and is there a better, faster, safer way?

And while the number of people who post here is small the readership is not. And I know that some of the people who can make changes activly read this and maybe they will consider what everyone says here.

First, places of worship and cemeteries should not be tax exempt.

Cemeteries should be.....

1) how much service do we provide them? If running EMS, our response times are way to slow for the residence.

2) Have you ever tried to collect on someone taking a dirt nap......THey are never going to pay.

3) "Death & Taxes" ....the only thing that is absolute. I think the writer did not mean both at the same time.

LMAO....

Pre-plan, not much different than sending 3 engines,2 trucks a rescue and a chief to a reported possible fire within a structure.

I think thats a poor comparison. If the tower knows what is coming in, id compare it more to sending 1 Engine & 1 Truck to a car fire vs. 3e,2t,r,c.

We send different fire response to different types of buildings, i.e high rise gets a different response than a shed...even though they are both "structure fires".

Well my 2 cents is that in an airport there are many more hazards for example the plane missing the runway and possibly crashing into a building filled with either jet fuel or people where on a highway or interstate a SUV probably won't hit a building filled with that sort of stuff b/c there aren't to many buildings right on the highway if there are any at all. Yes this is only one example but if something like this happened the results could be catastrophic. I also believe when this call was initially dispatched the size of the plane was unknown so I think its better to be safe then sorry. Send them you can always turn them around!

And the SUV on 684 can hit an MC306 Tanker with E85 Etanol. All the foam at the airport wont put this one out.

Not knowing the type of aircraft on dispatch is one thing (however the tower should know and advise). Being able to spread out makes sense, but the airport plan always had (dont know if it still does) all units stage on airport rd then procede in thru the same control gate (not spread out).

9/11 has had little effect on the response plan, since this is almost the same response they sent 15 years ago. And if memory serves the reason for sending so much was the airport is 1/3 in PC (now RB), 1/3 in P and a 1/3 in A's district and everyone wanted a piece of the action.

PCFD Units: 2391, 2392, E59, E60, E62, L31, R40

AFD Units: 2021, 2022, 2023, E286, T9, 51B1

PFD Units: 2411, 2412, E240

HVAC Units: 61A3

PC/R/RB EMS: 77A6

NWALS: 4513, 45M1

WCDES: Car 1, B11, B15, B16, EMS10

WCPD

Always found the airport response to be amazing. One thing if its a large plane, but this was not.

I can fit more people and fuel into an FD suburban and if I roll it over on 684 at the airport exit do I get

5 Engines

2 Ladders

1 Rescue

1 BLS & 2 ALS Amulances

1 ALS Fly Car

8 Chiefs, & 4 Coordinators

Plus I suspect at least 1 ARFF unit.

Isn't it beyond the county and state's level on the taxing of these exempt entities? It's the Federal IRS tax code that defines tax exempt and not for profit cooperations and businesses.

The state could mandate an annual emergency service fee in lieu of property tax, that would not violate IRS code.

In New York State it is not a fire district's job to raise the taxes.

But effectively it does.

The fire district sets an operating budget for the upcoming years anticipated expenses and pass along the budget to the town (or towns) board(s) with in the district to become integrated with the town budget.

If the district doubles the budget it also doubles the tax rate. Don't fire districts hold a vote on both 1 of the 5 commissioners and the budget (both operating and capital) every 2nd tue in December or March?

They send it to the town for collection, not for review and it does not become part of the town budget. The town assesser or tax collector acts as their agent.

We have come up with many possible ideas to fix this problem, a program where tax exempt properties would pay a certain amount similar to a tax, forming a Town of Poughkeepsie Fire Department(Fairview, Arlington, and New Hamburg,) and other ideas. I am just looking for any thoughts, suggestions or comments on the situation that may help us out. Also keep in mind that the county and state government have been far from helpful in our situation. Thanks.

Fairview (both the one in Dutchess and the one in Westchester have a similar problem. To many tax exempt properties to provide a fair tax bill.

For the most part the county can do almost nothing to help. While they own DCC and other properties, if they decided to pay an inlue of payment, some one from another part of the county would complain that they were spending "their" tax money with no reguard for them. (I'm not saying this is right, just the argument that will be used.)

We have fought for many years to get 2 not for profit colleges to pay inlue of tax payments without luck. We even tried to get the public service commission to change the way hydrants are paid for (we rent them, and the non-profits get them for free).

The state would need to change the law to help here. Good luck.

I'm sorry to say that there are 2 problems with forming a Town FD:

1) the taxpayers in the other districts may feel that they are subsidizing your district and not want to see there rates go up.

2) It is currently illegal to have a town fire dept (a townwide fire district is ok). This year there was a proposal in the state budget to "force" this issue. If it had passed the town could go to referendum to form a town FD. The NYS Assoc. of Fire Chiefs fought against it.

I loved the EMINENT domain comment on the news site, 1st time I've ever agreed with it. Its a great threat, since the US Supreme court said that it can be used for the economic betterment of the community (Susette Kelo, et al. v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005).

"Posted - Large parcels of land available to any interested developer - $1 per Acre to any project that will pay full property tax. Location: in the area of Marist.... Contact FFD"

Then send notice that you plan on taking property to fund the district. That should get there attention

Wish I could be more possitive. The main answer is merge, make a larger tax base and things will get better. Very tough thing to do.

The other option is to play The ISO game. What's your rating (particularly in the area of Marist and St Fransis). Determine how much money you are or could be saving them. Then you could show how funding you can save them money.

Also why do you provide medivac standby at a hospital. Have them certify as a helipad and then its not needed (like at West med.) or have them "pay" for protection.

Good luck

I think what we're seeing here (volunteers quitting en masse) is going to be a continuing trend if some leaders in the fire service want things done "their way" or "the old way" as opposed to the safe and effective way.

Sometimes its the other way around. The leadership trying to improve the dept.; better managment, training, sop's, etc. and the old boys not going along with it.

There were at least 15 medical aided cases prior to the Pope's arrival. Assisting was the Yonkers FD on first responder basis along with the Empress EMS personnel at the site. There may have been more, but I was busy managing the regular police action, which included a ridiculous (shouldn't have happened) foot pursuit on Nodine Hill!

I was told (by YFD) that they treated over 125 people (most treat and release). The biggest problem was they site ran out of water and no one was willing to go to where the water was, for fear of losing his/her spot

valhalla ambulance was going, but county cancelled the 10 additional BLS ambulances the day prior, due to lack of participation

So what else is new in this county

Barry, they kept their "on the job" seniority or no? And is this still permissible? This would be the 1st time I have heard of this, but I am young. As I understood it, Police officers used to transfer from NYC to Westchester jobs but that was discontinued years ago. And now they call it resign/rehire.

We go on City seniority. So the 15 or so NR Cops who took our test and got hired keep their seniority for vacation and some other benefits (but not pay). The FF's who lateraled did not keep seniority, but kept pension time (as did the cops).

Mt Vernon PD in the 80's & 90's had a big problem with "Badge drain" they paid poorly and guy got 1 or 2 years of experience andwould transfer to village depts. Going to starting pay...which was often higher.

That is not a "transfer". You can't just call another department and ask to get a job, you must be on the "LIST" and be offered a job.

About 10 years ago we took transfers from at least 4 other departments. We did not have an active list at the time and NYS Civil Service approved it.

Thats the great thing about us Volleys, we can get 21 Chiefs out!!!!!!!

Note: I did not say anything about vollies.

I can think of a lot of "snappy" comebacks to this line....but thats not the point.

Does anyone see a problem that there were 21 chiefs (plus DES/OEM) but only 14 engines & 5 trucks?

DCurtis - "Yeah, there was an awful lot of manpower there. Its better to be safe than sorry and have them on hand when you need them. Plus it seemed like just about everybody was put to work."

Agreed that having enough manpower when needed is important, but how much supervision is needed?

We have to remember the rigs we purchase aren't being purchased to be "parade rigs" so let's use our heads and go for safety not looks.

Too many depts. buy parade rigs and not rigs to get the job done, and done safely.

I'll stick with the chrome bumper .... before you know it, our fire appartaus is going to look like a wood chipper ( with all the warning labels )

The FDSOA (Fire Department Safety Officers Association) has determined that the painted steel bumper is stronger in a crash and protects our members better.

If you try to lift most of the chrome ones with a heavy wrecker the back end bends up into the cab. Peirce rates their painted steel at 50,000 Ibs, FDNY's must be 80,000 Ibs on an engine.

If you go to the croton dam they have a solar powerd camera on one of the pump houses and on one of the built in pump house lookin buildings on the dam itself. I want to get in one so bad

If you try, you had better bring your SCBA. DEP and myself videoed the inside of the Croton "Gate House". The O2 level drops to about 12%. Without SCBA you pass out at around 16%

And, since I am on the subject, WHO DECIDES ON EQUIVALENTS?? If a guy is a member of a Ladder Company in FDNY but hasn't taken, say, NYS Intro to Fire Officer as prescribed by their volly department, do you let them slide and fill the position knowing they have experience and training (better then most of the crap we get?)

If its OSHA required training (Hazmat, Confined Space, Trench, Bloodborne, etc.) OSHA says the employer is responsible to ensure adequate training. The employer is the dept. (does not mater if its career or VFD).

This means that one dept can except anothers training. But they must prove that the level of training meets the minimum standard. this may include testing. The most important part is documenting this.

The interesting part is that the law does not recognize any OSHA training that is taught by OFPC. If you take Hazmat Ops. and get a cert from OFPC. The law requires your agency to document the following:

objectively demonstrate competency in the following areas

1910.120(q)(6)(i)(E)

An understanding of the role of the first responder awareness individual in the employer's emergency response plan including site security and control and the U.S. Department of Transportation's Emergency Response Guidebook.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(

Know how to select and use proper personal protective equipment provided to the first responder operational level.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(D)

Know how to perform basic control, containment and/or confinement operations within the capabilities of the resources and personal protective equipment available with their unit.

1910.120(q)(6)(ii)(F)

An understanding of the relevant standard operating procedures and termination procedures.

OFPC can not have you demonstrate competency in local dept equipment and SOP's since they dont know what they are. The best is every member must be trained in the depts WRITTEN EMERGENCY RESPONSE PLAN.

How many depts even have this?

One, the UK fire service is nationalized. They all have the same training and work under the same work rules country wide, not the case in the US.

In 1999 I spent some time at Morton-On-March the Fire College for the UK. They were running what we would call 1st line supervisors. They had about 30 newly promoted 1st time career officers going thru training. I followed a group of 6 who were assigned to a pump (engine co). They were given 6 scenarios and at each on everyone rotated officer, mpo, nozzle, etc.

Now these 6 officers had never met before, they were from 6 different depts. in 3 different countries (England, Scotland, & Wales). They worked like they had been stationed togeter for years. The SOP's are the same, the equipment is the same and the rigs are the same, right down to each compartment i.e. comp. #4 has the same equipment in it in London and in Inverness (No. Scotland).

Makes it very easy to switch depts. when the main difference is the name on the door.

I particularly like the system of testing every 3 years. It is apparently put in place to ensure that less qualified people can get hired too. I have heard the argument that if they didn't wait that long, only the top scorers on the test would ever be hired. And that would be unfair to the people who are less qualified (lower scorers).

I actually had to reread this to understand it. And it is completely WRONG.

Its not set up to hire tose less qualified, its set up to keep them out.

If you score an 80 on the test in 2000 and you are #25 on the list and we hire 5 per year. You die #10 on the list and the 15 who scored higher are not taking the next test, but there are a few who are better who missed the last test and a few new people who were not eligable the last time.

So in 2003 you study harder and score an 86 and your 18 on the list, but again we only hired 15. out of luck.

In 2006 you finally scored a 95, but it was an easy test and 30 scored higher. THe must be more qualified, so how is this unfair to the less qualified?

The reason the list is a four (4) year list is at least in NR case it cost us over $70,000 everytime we run a test.

Could the system be better...yes. Is it massively flawed...no.

The Civil service system was set up to be fair and hire the most deserving. Without it, the chief would hire the brother of the councilman and the kid whose dad gave the most to the mayors reelection or his kid who would be in Sing Sing if the chief did not play hiring games with the pd chief kid.

And then the promotion system is in place to ensure that the unqualified people can eventually become unqualified bosses, and eventually be an unqualified leader.

Since your hiring concept is wrong........so is this. Promotional tests are done on a 2 year cycle so its even harder to get promoted than hired. And the # of openings is so small that in most cases if you do not score in the top 3, you dont stand a chance. In my case I scored #1 or #2 on 4 test before I got promoted to LT and #1 or #2 on 3 tests before Capt. If there are no openings it does not matter how you score.

The entire system is ludicrous if you look at it from a distance.

Thats why I'm explaining it from up close and personal.

Doing your time and being a "bro" counts for more than intelligence and skill. Any job that has a process in place to ensure that under-qualified candidates are hired and promoted out of fairness, has problems at the core.

Not here. But in other places...i.e. in Detroit (I've been told) they do not do promotion tests, just seniority lists. If you out live everyone you get promoted.

Respect, it costs nothing to give but can cost you so much if you don't show it. (Something that applies to just about anything in life.)

Well Said

Bnechis, you have a very good point. He kind of painted himself into a corner. However I don't believe you can compare the two. Firefighters are not losing their jobs to volunteers. Paid fighters are taking over where volunteers were.

On the same note are full time photographers losing their jobs to volunteers? I dont think so. The Jernal news has the same number as they have always had.

I think thats a litle bit of a myth. I know that most VFD's in westchester are having problems with manning (particularly weekdays) How many of these depts in the last 10 years have gone paid or even added paid staff? Out of 58 depts 4 have no vol, 12 are combo and 42 are vol. the 1st 4 and the last 42 have not changed at all and the 12 combo all I can think of is EFD has added a few positions (but they technically no longer have any vol.) and LFD added a chief.

On a different note: the Journal news called the NRFD member in question here, and begged him for his photos.

I don't really understand what your getting at can you explain a little more?

Sure, Seth said that its not right for someone to be doing photography for free when there are career photographers.

I just wanted clarrification if he really believes that concept.

A lot of anti volunteer people have used this line (and I dont believe he is).

And I am not trying to make this a vol vs. career thing.

If departments had more objective and stringent hiring practices, situations like this wouldn't occur. Instead, in Westchester at least, if you took the away all the "have to's", like the agility, medical, etc.......people get hired based on subjective interviews. There are no weighted oral board scores used by other departments around the country no objective personel, such as firefighters in the department, etc. One department I interviewed with a long time ago had an interview with 5 people.....no one knew your name except for one, and everyone filled out a form based on "Canidate X", not your name. As far as the interview was concerned, everyone had a clean slate and was on level ground walking in and out.

Since Mt Vernon, New Rochelle, White Plains and Yonkers have about 875 of the approx 1,100 paid ff positions and the 4 are under Federal court decrees for hiring practices, 80% of the jobs can not change the system.

BTW who says they are not objective?

You said that after the agility, written, medical etc. then its up to nepatism.

We get a list from civil service, in order of score on the agility (which unlike the towns & villages the 4 cities score based on performance time) plus the written exam.

Medicals can not be done until after we offer a job (pending sucsessful completion of the medical)

so we take that list and interview them in that order and almost always hire in that order.

Of the last 25 or 30 people I got to interview, we hired in order and the only people who were skipped had criminal backgrounds (that would prevent them from being an EMT), appeared to be lying about a critical item (work hx or residence), did not have a valid drivers licence (required under our civil service) oh and they drove themselves to the interview or clearly wanted to be hired as thier second job (and did they have to work weekdays?) out of all of that only about 4 did not get hired in order.