Bnechis

Journal News: For-profit CORPORATION with career photojournalists who make their money by going to these scenes and getting photos.

Seth it sounds like you are against people doing something for free when others do the same thing as a career.

Based on this statement, how can you not defend the argument that SOME career FF's make that volunteers hurt careeer jobs?

That doesn't make a lot of sense - if someone drives into a well-lit parked car they're 100% at fault, and 100% on the hook. What if I'd stopped at a red light, and someone ran right into the back of me? No arguments there, I'm obeying the rules of the road, the other party is again 100% at fault. What you're describing is 'knock for knock', where both parties are to some degree at fault, and the insurers apportion liability on the evidence.

My wife was stopped at a red light (about 10 yrs ago) and was struck by another car. The ins. co said she was 30% at fault because she got out of bed and left the house. You're right it does not make sense.

Yes, of course I'd notify my insurers of the accident - but they don't get a say in deciding what happens, that's between me and the idiot who ran into me. I won't be making any claim on my insurance; no claim, no payout, no loss to insurers, no increase in rates - for *me*. I'll be making my claim to HIM, and he'll pass it on to his insurers to deal with - unless he just wants to settle up out of his own pocket.

Your Insurance carrier will see it differently. They dont like paying. They believe its there money and will make you pay in the long run. This is one of the reasons that most people avoid reporting anything to them.

I'm not trying to be funny, but I really didn't understand that at all - what do you mean by 'no-fault state' and 'insurance tagged'? (I'm an immigrant and still get tripped up by US language sometimes!)

To me, here's how it works:

1. I park my car with lights etc. as before.

2. Some idiot drives into it.

3. Last time I checked, it was the responsibility of the driver to avoid stationary objects - trees, signs, parked cars etc.

4. If there's any justice, idiot gets a ticket (back home in UK it would be for 'careless driving' at the least).

5. I fix my car.

6. I send idiot the invoice.

7. He/she pays, or their insurance company does.

8. No pay? You'll see me in court.

What have I got wrong?

Mike

You are partially correct. No Fault means it was an "accident"...he didnt mean to hit your car and everyone pays partially.

His insurance and your insurance will decide who is is at fault and by how much.

Generally he hit you so he is 60 - 80% responsable. You are responsible for the remainder.....Your Ins company will say its 20, - 40% your fault becaus if you stayed in bed your car would not have been in a place to get hit.

Tough concept, but its mostly based on you getting covered when you get hit by someone who has no insurance.

The tagged part is your rates will go up to pay your %.

So for NY, how about doing this: abolish blue courtesy lights, but allow FFs *who have completed EVOC or similar AND are passed to drive department vehicles* to use blue/red/white lights & sirens on their POVs, with the same privileges as any other emergency vehicle. How does that sound?

Gets rid of the two biggest problem with blue lights - young inexperienced guys driving like yahoos, and Joe Public not knowing or caring how to respond to blue-light vehicles - whilst still giving appropriate privileges to the more dedicated and experienced members of the FD, who can (hopefully!) be trusted to use them appropriately.

1) As mentioned, your insurance will go up by $1,000's

2) Maybe in rural areas, but lets think about this, in urban/suburban areas like most of Westchester most depts. cover less than 5 sq. miles. That means its about 3 miles from corner to corner. At 30 mph its a 6 minute run, now some members are most likely closer. National standards for career depts requires that other than the 1st due you need to be there in 8 minutes. So even unmanned you can do that.

3) If response time is so important.....have staffed stations.

Many of the VAC's have had duty crews for 30 years why cant fire?

I'm a Chief and I do not condone the use of the blues based on the law. That is why I feel it is well beyond time for the law to be amended to our benefit. You guys run a lot of calls on I95 and I am sure you may benefit from the addition of blue warning lights on your apparatus too. People are so used to seeing red and amber that blue actually grabs their attention. Hopefully we can find a resolution to this soon.

Agreed, I'm for Blue on Official Dept Vehicles, once it is legal to do so.

I would hold my helmet out the window and the firepolice would giveme scene access or wave me through traffic. I think you shouldn't be able to use a blue/green light until you are nearing the fire/EMS scene.

Should anyone with a blue light or a helmet be allowed thru? What happened to accountability?

I've seen sceens (while working EMS) where 5 or 6 depts. had members on sceen, but no mutual aid was requested. Looked like they put there gear on and just decided "I'm needed and want to play".

After 9/11 to even get into the area you had to show NYPD & then MP's at seperate road blocks that you should even be in the area, and that was a mile away. At one point they changed the passes and the MP's would not allow the FDNY Commissioner to pass, in his city official car. Granted this was a bigger event than most will ever see.

A fitting location for a Rap Hall of Fame. It already has a .45 cal and a .357 cal bullet holes in the ceiling!!!

"I Know Nothing....I See Nothing"

HOGAN!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets not forget 211 South 4th.

The former fire house turned EMS dump, turned to Mayor Davis's planned Rap Hall of Fame.

i agree. it appears after many years of observing them that they dont work, people dont move and they just seem to create problems.

The biggest problem I've seen is the young members putting $1,000's into a light show on a car that barely runs, then doing mach 9 to get to automatic alarms.

How many POV colored lights have saved a life this year?

How many accidents have they caused

I don't understand what the big deal is having them as courtsey lights and as apparatus warning lights. The law says that the bule is a courtsey light in POV's therefore it has no actual bearing as it would on the back of the apparatus. My point is that they might as well just let them be used as courtsey lights and as warning lights.

Because the law says:

15 NYCRR 44.4

N.Y. Comp. Codes R. & Regs. tit. 15, § 44.4

(h) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a blue or green light may not be affixed to a vehicle which is entitled to have red lights affixed and one or more red lights are so affixed.

(a) (1) says police vehicles.

Don't know if that would pass inspection or not, but just pop an LED blue light (clear when off) on there, and that might do it.

15 NYCRR 44.4

N.Y. Comp. Codes R. & Regs. tit. 15, § 44.4

(k)(6) Such light must consist of a lamp with a blue or green lens and not an uncolored lens with a blue or green bulb, except that a roof-mounted dome unit which does not include a lens, must consist of a blue or green dome and not an uncolored dome with a blue or green bulb.

My other question - if a FD apparatus decides to add blue warning lights to improve it's visibility, should the PD be expected to enforce the law and order those lights to be removed?

The real issue is how can a fire administrator allow the dept. to violate the law. If joe citizen drives into the back of a stopped fire truck with a blue light flashing the lawers are going to say its the FD's fault, since they broke the law.

Nobody has posted station 12 on Fortfield Avenue yet either...

Or Sta. 11...but that one is well hidden

The comment regarding Southern California, Florida, and Texas being far ahead of the Northeast was related to CAFS. These departments are embracing CAFS now for "everyday" structural use, after being proven in these state's extensive wildfire and interface situations. These departments are also succesfully using it for car fires, dumpster fires, etc.

Los Angeles County did a breakthrough, extensive study regarding CAFS, which was done scientifically and involved live burns of 3 houses.

Texas was THE first state in the nation to use CAFS.

As far as Europe CAFS goes, you obviously have more knowledge from experience....I'm just going by what I was told by friends who work in London and someone I met from the UK who was riding with a busy US department to see CAFS in action.

I'll give you that. they are way ahead on CAFS, but they need to be due to interface issues. They can also afford it since they mostly have regional serices. If we got rid of 1/2 the rigs we could pay the $40-50 K for this.

It helps when you have plenty of money and similar to any large corporate business has a lot to lose if there is a lawsuit due to injury/death.

Also helps when you understand the economics of fire protection. Most of the property is owned by Disney which is self insured. But self insurance requires you follow loss tables and the lower the risks (due to great codes) the less $$$ needs to be set asside for insurance.

We never have issues getting code compliance from Walmart, Home Depot or any companies with a lot to lose.

I've written the same violations over and over for our home depot. It got so bad at one point we were sending them to corp. The violations are present most times when I walk in. I wish they were as good in this region as you have in yours

Personally, I feel that any apparatus operator who can't operate one of the very user friendly foam systems, CAFS or otherwise, has no business being behinf the pump panel. Also, if the pump or foam system is too complicated or laid out poorly and doesn't fit with the department's needs, then you have also have an apparatus comittee who has no business being such.

I hear from many instructors that when overseeing live burns they ask MPO's what presure they pump at and the common answer is 125psi. When asked why, the answer is because thats what we always pump. I agree, the MPO needs to know what he is doing, the question is does he?

The majority of apparatus comittee members have no busniess being such. I looked at 2 recent deliveries (1 that was featured in a fire mag, talking about how wonderful it was). I tried to get up to the hosebed (units inside, clean & dry with great lighting) and I could not safely do it. & I was not in turnouts, on the side of the road at night in the rain. My 1st thought was they built a climbing wall.

Southern California, Florida, and Texas are WAY, WAY ahead of the northeast.

Can you back up your beliefs?

USFA Fire Fatalities per million:

Tx - 10.7

NY - 10.3

Fl - 10

Ct - 9.7

NJ - 8.4

CA - 7.1

Looks like this is almost equal. NY better than Tx, CT & NJ better than Fl.

The one thing I see being way way ahead is FL & CA both run much more regional departments and they believe in onduty minimum manning far and away more than the NE.

Also, in Europe, they have a very limited water supply, and consequently, in many cities water runoff from a fire scene is seen as a failure. They use steam to help extinguish a lot of the fire, but a system similar to CAFS is rapidly becoming popular for urban fires.

Where in Europe do they have a limited water supply?

I've ridden in Hamburg, Bramen & Hanover (GER), Paris, London, Perth & Edinburgh (both in Scotland). Also went to Morton-on-Marsh The Fire Collage of GB. and I thought they generally had better water supply systems. In Paris, for example they have below grade hydrant conections (hydrants are carried on pumps) every 100' on bothe side of the street alternating so every 50' your have a hydrant. Was amazed to see a pump pull up and only use 15m (45 feet) of hose everytime to get water.

Never heard that water run-off was a failure, did hear that having a fire was considered a failure (on the part of the occupant). They generally use less water because they do not build using combustible material. most buildings are stone or concrete. They use indirect attack more...thus the steam.

It makes it sound like all of there rigs are in service in at a given time, If that is the case that could be the reason for the low property loses there.

Its not the apparatus that keeps the low losses.

Reedy Creek Improvement Disrtict has the best fire & building code in North America, All strucutures, including temporary, sheds, etc. are fully sprinklers. They have a very agressive fire inspection program (including daily inspection of public assemblies...most places due it annually).

They have proven that aggressive codes and code enforcement can almost eliminate fire loss.

was that why Hartsdale was there? Why wasn't New Roe called in? Do they just go down a list when they call for MA? Location for that alarm sounded like New Roe and Maybe WPFD Eng 65 may have been closer.

HFD & EFD were in SFD's Crossway Firehouse 3 blocks from the scene, training. They were on-scene in under 1 min from the time of the explosion.

NR & WP were not in Scarsdale, so they were not closer

simple...the fire service, mainly in the northeast, is all about traditions and egos. I believe until we really see how easy and effective foam is first hand that we will look right past it...or until NFPA says we WILL have Class A Foam on our rigs

And what is so bad about tradition?

You imply its only in the northeast. Have you ever seen how it operates anwhere else?

Its interestiing to see how advanced the fire service is in Europe. They are atleast a decade ahead of us, and have been that far ahead for the last 20+ years. They have just as much tradition and ego, but it does not slow them down. They also dont use CAFS except in the interface

Interesting that outside of Interface areas, the places that are buying CAFS have almost no structure fires.

USFA did a study in Boston on CAFS to see how effective it was in a NE urban setting. They said it was useful, but not enough so to justify paying for it.

NFPA can mandate it, but do you think that will make Boston, NY, Phili, Baltimore, DC, Chcago, Detroit, etc. buy it?

Abaduck, you made a good suggestion with the trench cut, its probably what I would have done almost immediately, followed by inspection holes to attempt to locate the fire and cut a decent size vent hole as close as I could get it.

Wrong order.

If you cut the trench 1st how do you know where to cut it may already be past you and if not the trench will draw the fire, then you will lose the trench and the rest of the building.

Vent hole 1st. This will draw the fire towards the hole. Its ok to procede to the next step if the roof has self vented.

2nd inspection holes to determine where to cut the trench. use either a plung cut or a small triangle (3 plunges of the blade) just enough to see if you have fire, hvy or light smoke.

3rd cut the trench. (this building, with this understaffed crew will never finish in time).

I did not say that CAFS can't rapidly reduce the ambient temperature. I said that it can be overwhelmed. At a high enough temperature CAFS becomes ineffective. So until you hit this celing CAFS may indeed be superior at removing heat from the environment. But at this alleged temperature CAFS ceases to be effective.

Agreed. The problem with being overwhelmed is what has chased a few 2 1/2" lines out of the halls during wind driven fires. This is a concern that has killed a number of FDNY members over the past few years.

bnechris, I was lacking in terminology before. An improperly applied indirect attack can rapidly spread fire to uninvolved portions of the structure. A direct attack does not push fire. An underflowed line may allow fire to spread, but it does not push the fire.

If a direct attack does not push "fire" then why do we teach that good tactics dictate venting infront (so the fire can be pushed)?

The difference between east and west is not aggresiveness, one embraces and is held back by tradition, one embraces technology that will save more lives and save more property.

Very true...the east stopped allowing roofing with a "D" flame spread and the west still allows old technology (combustible shingles) that has risked hundreds of lives and cost how much property loss?

When was the last time we had a major confligration on the east coast?

Baltimore 100 years ago?

I'm not saying the east or west is better or worst...but I had to go after this line

An aggressive interior attack does not push fire. Thats a well documented myth. Exterior attack into a room that is not enclosed however does push fire.

Care to explain this?

You can push fire from outside, but if you are inside it can't be pushed?

"How to put it out"?

Tell congress to stop subsidizing it.

It is not Environmentally friendly....they use patrolium based furtilzers and coal to process. it uses more energy than it makes.

It's caused price increases in corn, & wheat....raising the price of food.

We need alternative energy...but this is not it.

I don't get why people make excuses for their dept not having enough resources. Its your butt that on the line. Make them either increase staffing or call in mutual aid. If there are not enough resources then put pressure on your leadership to get those resources there. Make it their problem and let them deal with it. Now if you don't believe that rehab has anything to offer you or you think having EMS standing by just in case something happens to you is a waste, then so be it. But don't excuse management 's responsibility to protect you because there aren't enough resources.

This is not directed at anyone individual. Just a reference to a general attitude.

Agreed....

"make them increase staffing".........good luck.....HOW?

I know of no VFD's that have been able to do it and very few career depts. And the combo depts. claim they dont need to because they have volunteers, but if none are showing up, they are just under manned depts.

"Mutual aid" - look at what is being called to most minor fire's its like a whose who of dept's. MA is suppose to be for the "big one" not for every one line fire.

I think the main reason that most ff's in Westchester are not fighting for manning is they are afraid that they will bring in career ff's or will disband and merge their social club.

Who says that EMS has to run the rehab operation? Ideally, it should be run by people with medical training but that could be other FD resources. If you don't have enough resources, call more - call mutual aid

The problem is right now most FD's in Westchester need to call 8 depts to handle a bedroom fire. Your stripping 15% to 20% of the county of fire protection before you even start rehab. FD's need to start taking a strong look at what they are capable of doing and get their heads out of the sand (was going to say head out of ..........)

As for not calling EMS to the scene of a fire until a second alarm, can't/don't FF get hurt at the first alarm?

Most FD's have SOP's that do not allow any injuries until after the 2nd alarm is placed....LOL

In repards to spills, what are some of the concerns faced if ethanol is released and runs into the sewer or a waterway. It is an organic compound that can occur naturally in nature, why so much concern about environmental exposure?

In a sewer it can come up in every building (via an open trap) in a community, then ignite when it finds an ignition source, like a pilot light on a water heater. There are a number of cases where other flammable liquids (usually gasoline) have done this and the FD has arrived to find a dozzen or more fully involved structure fires.

It may occur in nature but how often do you find 8,000 gals (MC306 tanker)

Barry , Check out this article from Industrial fire world (http://www.fireworld.com/ifw_articles/daves_notes0308.php)

Volume 23, No.2 By DAVID WHITE

He was one of the seminar presenters.