Bnechis

Barry, Great bit of info. Hope this has informed and enlightened the guys in the field.

Now I know why you live at the TOP of the hill.

Thanks. Nope I live at the top of a hill because I grew up in a neighborhood that floods..............but you already know that..........

I know that my job has gone from a protien based to an alchohol resistant. However, would 10% ethanol in gasoline be enough to render an protien based foam ineffective?

This is a Fact sheet I put together for my dept. It is based on two different seminars. And I had 2 Foam Experts confirm the math, which I have trouble believing is correct based on the totals, but they said its right.

ETHANOL - Major new hazard

Ethanol fuel spill or fire is a new concern for the fire service. Ethanol can be found in its pure state or mixed with gasoline and both can be found in transportation. Ethanol is also called Ethyl Alcohol or Moonshine.

Ethanol is mixed with gasoline. E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, while E10 is 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. E10 is commonly found in cars. Ethanol is now the #1 rail transported product, with 350,000 annual railcars, usually rail cars carry pure ethanol. MC306 Tanker trucks generally care either E85 or E10 with approximately 8,400 tanker trips annually. Which is about 10% of the total tanker trips.

Ethanol is a polar solvent which means it mixes with water. Gasoline is a non-polar solvent, when gasoline and ethanol are mixed they create a unique series of problems for the fire service.

If it is burning the only effective extinguishing agent is Alcohol Resistant AFFF (AR-AFFF) which is the only foam that works. Never MIX Different brands of AR AFFF, they will eat one another. Additionally, foam if not gently applied will sink in ethanol and it will not come back to the surface, so it must be banked off a wall or dropped onto the street in front of it and eased into it. The other concern is how much foam is needed, which is dramatically more than with other flammables. The 1% / 3% (Hydrocarbons / Polar Solvents) AR-AFFF that we have is considered the most appropriate for Ethanol and should be set at 3%.

15 gallons from a car tank that has spilled on the ground and ignited will require approximately 10-16 gpm of foam concentrate for a minimum of 15 minutes, which is 150 to 230 gallons of concentrate or 30 to 46 foam buckets. If an M306 gasoline tanker were to spill its entire load the requirements would be approximately 80,000 – 128,000 gallons of concentrate or 16,000 to 25,600 foam buckets. I do not believe that much concentrate exists in the entire region. Airport Crash Trucks are not an option, they do not carry Alcohol Resistant Foam. The Federal Response Teams (EPA & USCG) have yet to formulate a plan. If the fire occurs in a loading dock (none in New Rochelle) the flow rate needs to be doubled. If the spill is contained in a diked area, the application time doubles, but the amount of foam needed maybe less based on total square footage.

Best bet is protect exposures with master streams and try to prevent it from getting into storm drains.

If it has spilled, with no fire, it needs to be contained, which includes using foam for vapor suppression and vacuumed up by a licensed clean-up company. Absorbents (speedy-dry, pads, socks, etc.) will absorb the gasoline but not the ethanol, leaving 100% ethanol.

All this talk about foam operations, but isn't synthetic High Expansion foam the only product that isn't broken down by acids? The preferred foam for hydrocarbons is going to be a protein foam, which I can't imagine is capable of standing up to acid exposure.

The prefered foam for hydrocarbons is AFFF and if it has any ethonol in it (E15 or E85) it better be AR-AFFF or it will be eaten up in seconds.

Whether the chemicals were combustible/flammable or not, their still being heated and giving off coorrosive vapors. Why not apply a foam blanket to them?

Because it was corrosive, it would eat the foam in seconds and do nothing to improve the scene. Just flushing $$$ down the drain.

As far as the $$$ is concerned with foam supply, FDMV should ask the Oil Cos. to pick up some of the cost, whose storage facilities they're protecting 24/7/365. I'm sure they'd have no problem doing it. In fact yrs. ago, I think they even offered to purchase a Foam Unit for FDMV if I'm not mistaken.

Why would the oil co's pay for foam to use on this incident?

Its different for them to fund foam to protect themselves, but thats AR-AFFF not CORFoam.

Yes you protect them, but why should they have to give you foam? Dont they pay taxes that intitle them to protection?

I'm sure they did offer to buy foam in the past.

But NR had to threaten legal action against them to pay for the clean-up of thier tanker that spilled on main st. and they are required by federal law to pay that bill. They did thier best to get out of it.

As far as the type and quantity of hazmat materials involved, was that known immediately while enroute, or some time after arrival. I know the Cops were asking their dispatchers to find a emergency contact phone # to find out what exactly was stored in the bldg. about 10-15 minutes into the operation.

I don't know. Whose responsability is it to find know this info?

The ops officer had a list before the owner arrived. I dont know where he got it from.

I don't know about MVPD, but most PD's dont get the info. All FD's are suppose to get 209u forms from every biz. What the dept does with it is another issue.

IMO, if you don't have the manpower to fight the fire AND set up decon, you should call for more M/A.

They did call M/A for it.

Every HAZMAT instructor I've ever had has told me Decon should be taken care of before any personnel are exposed to contaminants, and if thats not possible, set it up at the same time.

Agreed. But in most of the hazmat scenarios your arriving at a leak, spill or evena fire that is confined to the container. This was a building fire that contained HM. The hazards would increase if the fire got beyond the original building into other commercial wharehouses and local residential properties.

Also, all members were advised to stay up hill and upwind to avoid contamination. And emergency decon was available...its called a handline. There would have been no containment, but there were 1,000's of gals/min of running down the road away from the scene.

I agree wholeheartedly about the decon thing... it seemed to be an afterthought at this scene. There were a whole bunch of people that waited around until the wee hours of the night for a decon setup. This seems to me to be a BIG oversight, and I hope that we can all use this as a learning experiance.

The fire came 1st. Particularly since no-one was in need of immediate decon. The set-up time is what it takes when you use a tent based system.

As more and more resources arrived from the county and eventually state level, the scene became quite complicated. I still don't know where the ICP was... there were 2 mobile command trucks and at least 2 tabletop command stations present. It was a bit of a cluster...

ICP was infront of the fire (where it usually is) where the 2 tabletops were.

It would have been less of a cluster, if it was a single dept.

Given the photos and footage I saw in regards to a defensive operation, a rapid and copious amount of foam I feel (my opinion only) could have put a large dent into this fire, perhaps shortening the duration and runoff, and keeping members away from many potential hazards. Given the foam truck was equipped with Class A and B foam- and actually working.

At least 5,000 gpm was flowing for a couple of hours, adding another 1-2,000 of foam would not change it. Also the foam costs $$$ and while the company can get billed, its money out of pocket for MVFD.

For instance, look at this "Special Call" FDNY made for a tanker fire near an airport

A tanker on open road is different than a building, particularly one that has collapsed

Also, a "Snozzle" or Ferrara Strong Arm (http://www.ferrarafire.com/apparatus/strong_arm/index.html) could have helped at this fire.

What would a snozzle do that the TL & ladder pipes were not already doing?

A strong arm would have to come MA from China or Turkey. To operate this unit at this incident would have placed the members in direct contact with the Hazmat. and would also have spread more chemicals.

Not that anyone has a Snozzle or a Strong Arm.

Seth, I know you and others love to see different trucks in operation (who doesn't), But this was not the fire for them. I do not believe any dept. would have handled this fire any differently even, if it had unlimitted resources.

Thanks guys! I feel refreshed, lol! I really appreciate the knowledge you all shared....even learned some things I didn't know.

In regards to salt water, besides flushing the pump, is there any other maintainence that would need to be done after drafting salt water due to its corrosive properties?

Any other tips or tricks...keep 'em coming!!

Remove the fish parts, clams and other life from the screen

As long as every taxpayer in the United States continues pay "Federal Taxes" that contributes towards the funding that is used as "Federal Grant" appropriation, for equipment and/or manpower by certain City Officials, then every taxpayer in this country has the right to question that official. To say that these people do not have to answer to the people of Westchester is incorrect, no matter what the forum is.

So since My tax money goes to pay Bush's salary, I want him to personally answer my questions

So since My tax money goes to pay for the CIA, I have the right to know how my money is being used.

So since My tax money goes to pay for the Army I want to know when they deploy troops.

etc.

This is why we get to vote for representatives. They get to ask the questions that we do not get to.

These chiefs have to answer to the elected officials, like the military answers to congress.

However, in this case, the equipment in question was obtained thru "Federal Grant" monies, thus the right for anyone to question this.

Which equipment are you refering to?

None of the equipment paid for with grants was at this incident that was under the control of Commissioner Kiernan, Chief Everett, or Chief Fitzpatrick

The US has spent 1/2 a Trillion $$ in Iraq and We get no say in it, That means every taxpayer has paid on average $3,000 in federal tax, but we get no say in it.

But All Federal grants to all Westchester Fire Service since 2001 is about $10m so we've paid less than 0.3 cents and we should have a say in it.

Total

Idiot

Driving

Engine

JUST KIDDING !

Call 911....I've fallen and can't get up................ROFLMAO

Tide is something those of us on the coast get, every 6 hours the sound fills or empty's, regardless of what the FD does. and those who don't deal with it often, forget that from school days.

You have to also watch the water level in your static source. During a fire in 1984 on premium point, NRFD was drafting out of Long Island Sound and we dropped the water level down 8 -10' and loss the source. It took 6 hours for the water level to come back up.

Amazing that one pumper can pump that much water that it drop's the water level of LIS

We now have an acroynm for this: T.I.D.E.

If the truth was only known! I think it's more like shoot from the hip decission making. Was there a CIDS for this premise?

I don't know if there was a CIDS. But the CP had a list of the chemicals and the Ops officer said he knew what was in this building from more than 1 inspection. Also the ER was advised of what was involved. (and it turns out they knew of what was there before being advised from the scene).

Also, MVFD dispatch advised the IC and MA very early on that the building contained many HM. And to stay upwind/uphill.

Again (and final) to my previous point, why hasn't anyone come on this thread and come out with some reasonable explanaton to why WCDES/Hartsdale was called and not Yonkers.

I do not know why WCDES was called instead of YFD, but why is everyone so concerned about it. Maybe one reason is this was not going to be a go in and stop the leak, but a long term monitoring of contamination and clean-up, particularly beyond the fire building. DOH & DEC were there and a figure will continue for a long time. Just because YFD has more toys does not mean they are the best choise for everything. YFD has concentrated its Hazmat efforts to be able to determine product and deal with it. The squads have concentrated more on Decon and backing up YFD.

This is what I (and I believe others members of emtbravo.net) have been saying for years. Something is definately wrong with the system and something needs to be done now. To why no one within both the WCDES Administration, as well as the Leaders of Fire Services in such cities as Mount Vernon, Yonkers, New Rochelle, etc, has provided not specifically the membership of EMTBravo, but to all taxpayers in Westchester County with an explanation and solution is puzzling to me. I can only speculate that policitical posturing, egotisical positioning and Union Bias are behind this. But this, again, is only my opinion. Let's hear from the people who have the answers, such as Chief Gasparre, Chief Pitocco, Commissioner Kiernan, Chief Everett, Mr. Fitzpatrick and others.

As long as people hide behind screen names and routinly attack these people, they will never and should not have to be held accountable to EMTBrovo.

The politics of home rule. Commissioner Kiernan, Chief Everett, and CHIEF Fitzpatrick do not need to answer to the people of Westchester, just to either the citizens of the city they protect or the City Officials. I think its rather improper for some people on EMTBravo to insist that they answer to this forum.

The career chiefs have been working on a solution. That will improve the fire service that protects 10 communities. 2 additional City's felt that they are not in a position or that this was not needed to improve the services in thier districts. This plan together with those 2 City's (who are assisting in the study and have agreed to continue to work with us) protect 55% of the population of Westchester.

The remaining 45% of the county is protected by 46 VFD's (some are combo) and the question that you left out is what are they doing? WCDES does not have the legal right to do certain things because of "Home rule" but these depts. can ask DES for assistance and can do more to solve problems.

This would have been the perfect incident for the Foam/ARFF truck sitting rusting away behind Station 2.

Why would it be the perfect incident? I saw no downed aircraft and no foam was used or needed. This was a building fire with chemical stored in it. And most were not flammables.

Also, here's what the State Of Connecticut has issued for mass decon. There's absolutely no reason in my eyes why NYS or Westchester can't afford to do the same. The Squad equipment is complicated, bulky, manpower-intensive, and timely to deploy, and then to clean and pack up, whereas a mass decon trailer as pictured below would do the job faster and more efficiently, especially in colder weather. Here's the inflatable tent Squad 6 currently uses for Decon

That was my point. We shuld have those trailers. What the squads and MDU's have work, but take time and manpower to set up.

YFD not responding unless we call the shots? Never. At a fire scene I think we've always worked professionally with the hosts.

Agreed.

In my personal opinion (and mine only) this just only brings more justification for Regionalizing the Fire and EMS Services throughout Westchester County.

All but one of the departments in the regionalization study were involved either onscene or covering other dept stations. It would be much cleaner if this was performed by a single dept.

On a serious note, the IA says that decon was set up at 2215 - what about everyone working there from 2000??

They were still fighting the fire decon was only needed to make sure nobody took anything off the scene. It was a know location from pre-planning and almost every responder stayed upwind and up hill so they were not contaminated.

I will delete my question if the responses turn into that insidious animal we're all sick of, but just out of curiosity - why not call FDNY or Yonkers for a job like this?

Becausethe IC did not feel they were needed.

Besides the FD rundown, what was the EMS response? Did any of the mass decon units get deployed for potential use? Was there any PD mutual aid?

Empress EMS had a number of units including supervisors there.

Squad 6 set up decon for responders, there was no need for setting up mass decon. However it is obvious that Westchesters trailer based decon units (the Squads and MDU's) need to have full service decon trailers like Conn. or FDNY have.

There was no need for PD MA. All MVPD needed to do was close SO. Fulton at 2 locations and maintain the established fire line. It looked to me that they has sufficient personnel to do it if they wanted to.

Legally EMS agencies must charge everyone - regardless of residency, etc. How aggressively they do that is another thing.

I don't think Mahopac or the Falls CAN bill for services as they are FD ambulances whereas Carmel is an independent VAC.

in NYS municipal FD's may charge. Fire Districts may not charge. The NYS Assoc of Fire Districts has been trying to change this for 15 years. The state legislature never goes for it. It means the local property owners (read - taxpayers) pay for all service instead of the people who use it.

Mt Vernon just had too many alarms and the problem. After they did away with the vollys the city really didn't do anythnig to replace them.

Lets look at ths one a little different. In the early 1980's MVFD's union kept complaining they did not have enough manpower and needed more. MV's Mayor (may have been Blackwood at the time) kept saying they had plenty. Look at the Daily Argus (MV paper owned by gannet) and every fire scene showed dozens of firefighters infront of the building. The union complained for years that except for the 1 or 2 MPO's the rest were volunteers and they were not inside fighting the fire. The mayor never was moved by this argument. Now I knew a handful of volunteers in MV that were interior but I saw a lot standing outside (I worked on MV Amb 1) at the time. The union finally convinced the city to provide new "safer" helmets to the volunteers, these helmets were yellow (not black) and it became more obvious that there were lots of yellow helmets outside. Shortly after that is when the numbers of volunteers drop off drimatically. THe city never made up the numbers.

Whats the cost of bringing any one of the paid departments up to NFPA standards? Think of what a FF 1st grade, with vacation time, benefits, sick time, etc cost and figure just one man per shift. Now add to bring each rig up. Whos going to pay? Get realistic. In 10 years my taxes have tripled. I'm not going to pay for it.

You are assuming that the only cost to fire protection is the cost you've listed above.

The cost of fire protection includes:

Municipal water system is #1

Construction (including fire protection systems) is #2

Insurance is #3

FD Budget comes next. and while career depts. cost more, they may reduce #3 more than the cost of the FD bill.

Let us not forget VFD's cost $ as well. some (not many) spending more than career depts.

How many paid guys live in their district? Of that who owns a home and pays taxes? Think of how much you can pay above what you pay now.

I live in my 100% career district. (it went 100% paid in 1927 after the Chamber of Commerce potitioned the City that it would be cheaper than the VFD. And they switch within 1 year.

I own my home and pay taxes. My portion for the schools is over $5,000 but my cost for the FD is $176 per year. Thats for a 100% career dept. with an ISO PPC of 2. If we had an ISO PPC of 9 (which 40% of the FD's in NYS have) my home owners insurance would go up by about $750. So $176 is a bargan. If we added the additional manpower to fully meet NFPA 1710 my tax would go up by about $35/yr. Our ISO rate would go to PPC 1 (but in NYS private homeowners dont get credit for this improvement) but 1,000's of busnisess and multiple dwellings would get an additional 8% insurance reduction.

Training? In the perfect world everyone would have all the training they need. Get over it, its not a perfect world. How many of you guys work 2 jobs and a spouse that works as well? All I know is I want to spend time with my kids and they with me. We all have the same problems, making ends meet and making the most of our time. It is about time we all learned we need to get along. Lets get better saftey standards we can live with, safety bail out ropes, better lighting at highway scenes, more bottles so we can wear a pack during overhaul, The list can go on and on.

Yes its difficult to find the time but the better safety standards include more training! You want bailout ropes....the standard requires initial and annual training. The law has required those bottles since the the late 1970's and was reissued and directed to all FD's in NYS on Jan 8 1998. 10 years ago the law required this. The most important safety issue is training!!!!

If we all got together and marched on city hall in MV do you think the Mayor would notice that our FDMV brothers had the support of every FF in Westchester? It would speak very loudly, the newspapers and other media would notice as well. It's time to have one voice, we're all firefighters.

I remember when MV, NR, Yonkers, Eastchester and other FF's marched on MV City hall and it did nothing. The Mayors (In the past, I do not know this one) could care less about the FF's in MV or in Westchester, They only care about the VOTERS who support them. THe media noticed, but again, made no difference.

Since we should not be making this a paid vs. vol issue. Right after we march on MV City Hall we should go to every community in Westchester and march on City hall or the fire dist. meeting and protest if they don't have enough manning or cant get a rig on the road.

OK, if it weren't for the thunderstorm in the area I'd say call a HELICOPTER (yes, a shameless plug - read: job security).

How about calling the NYPD for their air bag unit based in the Bronx (not the kind of airbag already suggested) and let the guy jump like Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon. Great footage for YouTube.

If you want Youtube: You know shooting skeet..........."PULL-------Bang"

Get a Bridger Line Gun (we have on R-4) "Bang-------PULL"

Shoot the line gun at the worker, when the brass rod sticks in him....pull the line and presto.....your on youtube......

I fully agree with what you've said, but you lost me here. I get the need for the secondary anchor, but what do you mean about using the lift? Thanks

Since the lift is stuck but not falling its holding his weight when you come down to it add an anchor sling on it and add a tandum tripple wrap prusik to the main line to take the extra weight of 2 members.

Lots of other ways to do this one. All based on the same concepts.

Last I heard they were waiting for enough drivers to be qualified on it.

This should be a major RED flag. How do you explain this to the taxpayers?

The XYZ FD need $600,000 to $999,999 to buy a new ladder because the old one is __________ (fill in the reason).

The XYZ FD spends months going thru the process of spec, bid, approval, pre-con, building, fitting out, training, etc.

The XYZ FD can't put this truck that we told the community we needed (1-3 years ago) in service because we do not have enough drivers?

Perhaps someone can confirm this but I recieved an e-mail today telling me that the consolidation bill was shot down by both the house and senate.

Well the bill is the state budget bill. So it would not be a suprise if the state decided not to have a budget this year....

Only 8 days till the state deadline....................and counting

Just a quick question for you sir ( please, Im using Sir here in a respectful way because I respect you and your opinions here and learn a lot from them!!! , that and you are an officer which I respect also.)

In my old dept in Long Island, we had a houseman, but he was paid as a Village Highway Dept employee. He was expected to clean the firehouse daily, answer the phones and dispatch the dept to calls but received no money from the dept itself. Is this still considered as a dept cost? Im just curious to know, because you brought up great points. Thanks! Moose

Thank You

Before I can answer I need more info. Is this dept a municipal village dept., a fire protection district (ind. company that contracts with the village) or a fire district?

I am also in support of a Town of Poughkeepsie Fire Department, by merging the Fairview Fire District, Arlington Fire District and New Hamburgh Fire District, into one large combination department. Are people from the area/departments for this or against this?

I am for merging if it provides better fire protection and/or can save $$$ without reducing the level of protection.

I am against being forced into it by Albany. If the town does not want it, it may be worst than what we have now. Depts need to do this because it is the best way to proceed.