Bnechis

I was just thinking that too hhmm wonder where they got the idea to designate it 273?

If you read the previous posts it was stated that it was put together by members of U.F.F.A #273 of the International Fire Fighters Association.

At NFD, we have a washing machine that is primarily used to clean dirty turnout gear. It also can handle regular clothes/station wear, and bed linens, like comforters and blankets. When turnout gear or stationwear is soiled with blood or body fluids, a few things are expected and will take place. The exposure/contamination will be documented and the member will be evaluated at the Norwalk ED if necessary. All soiled garments will be red bagged and handled by members wearing universal precautions. In the event of a severe amount of blood/body fluids on clothing, our Paramedics and Hospital will be consulted for advice. The member is expected to keep backup uniforms and PPE ready at their assigned station (all provided and done).

I did some research a few years ago and found that on sanitize mode, our gear washer is capable of heating the water high enough to clean and sterilize the fibers found in turnout gear and station wear. To me, this seems like an adequate program intended to keep contamination away from the members vehilces and home.

JVC

Great idea. We do the same.

Our problem is preventing some of our members from using the machines to do the family wash. It amazes me that they refuse to bring their soiled uniforms home because of the family, but they have no problem bringing the baby's cloths to work to save a buck.

In all honesty, MRSA and all that other fun stuff is on 99.9% of us anyway. Likewise, do you think a pre-K classroom or any school for that matter is much different? What about a pediatrician’s office? Six one half a dozen the other if you ask me... Practice basic hygiene and you'll be fine

At least the pediatricians office does not have that dirty ambulance smell. When we open the back doors to get the stretcher you can smell if the crews have clean in the last few days. Always been a big pet peeve of mine.

I know of some Ambulances in the area that do carry the Mark I Kits,

who has them and how many I am sure is a "Homeland Security" issue so I

won't comment.

If you want them for your VAC I would assume you can

call the DOH and speak to them directly.

Two issues:

Are they carrying them for themselves or for patients? A number of years ago NYS gave each ALS unit about a 1/2 dozen kits. That ment each unit could treat 2-3 people. Not very useful at a WMD event (unless you are the oe to get it).

Second, If the kits are for the EMS crew there is no system issue (except DOH says they cant be used that way), but if Agencies are carrying them to give to patients, they need to consider how they are going to do it. To approach a patient you need Level A (if they have not been Deconned), or Level B/C if they have only had gross decon. Since it may take 20 minutes or more to respond and set up full decon by the time you can administer the drug it may be to late. How many agencies are able to don CPC and perform decon in a time frame to administer drugs that will be of use? You need to be able to admin prior to decon by members in level A.

If you want them for your ALS agency all you need to is pay for them. For your BLS agency you must apply to MAC before you can purchase them. DOH requires MAC to approve your agency.

Does the Westchester County have Mark 1 NAAK kits? How many kits do we have and where are they located? How would they be distributed in the case of a chemical weapon incident? I would assume that the county hazmat team carries some kits on the hazmat 1 rig? Is this assumption correct?Thank you.

And Chris:

"Yes the County does as do agencies within the County. We have <classified> and they are located at <classified>....They would be distributed pursuant to regional and local plans and in accordance with medical control or standing orders. <classified> has them too."

Interesting way to put it.

I don't know how many (if any) that the county has, but they were not an authorized agency to administer them. There is a stockpile under CDC's Chempac program at 6 or 7 hospitals. As of last year the only non ALS agencies were Yonkers FD (as an MMRS unit) and NRFD under MAC. The hazmat team was not authorized under MAC since they are not an "EMS" agency" they may have them for themselves.

Its not a spare....Its 1st Due to the Memorial Day and Thankgiving Parades.

Commercial EMS, compared to just about any other corporate enterprise has stricter standards of appearance. Hell even UPS requires vehicles to be washed on a regular basis. Its the people in charge and the senior members who are responsible for setting the standard. This once again comes down to the rank and file stepping up and demanding more from their co-workers and employers.

Stricter standards........I've seen a lot of commercial providers over the years that had almost no standards (individuals not companies). When you say UPS requires rig washing are you implying the EMS does not require it?

I absolutely agree that sloppy appearances and poor attitudes are not the products of EMT/medic schools.... but I think that it partly does stem from lack of discipline while in the training stage.......................... Then again we are talking about grown adults who are State certified medical providers. An agency shouldn't have to tell them to tuck in their shirt, shine your boots, shave, or even take a shower for that matter.

I'm not blaming EMS instructors or any programs out there, because this is just the way it is. I also understand that you can't have EMT or medic students out there running laps, but I think if EMS providers were trained in an Academy-like atmosphere, maybe we would be turning out providers who did have a little more discipline than what we're seeing now.

WELL SAID

I don't necessarily think that the EMT program itself is inadequate. I would like to see EMT students spending more time doing field rotation hours than the 8 or 16 hours they're doing now. My initial comment regarding EMT programs was the fact that there are programs out there that are a little too generous with graduating students.

Agreed, the time frame is set by Fed DOT and NYS DOH

I don't feel I'm improving "my EMS world" (as you put it), because very little of what I do benefits myself. In fact, nothing that I do really benefits myself. The stuff I do within the agency that I work for benefits the agency and the community that we serve... the benefits certainly aren't reflected in my paycheck.

I'm sorry I ment, both your individual and your agency as opposed to a more regional improvement.

You are right, if we already have substandard training, how do we justify extended the scope of practice... I agree 100%. But unfortunately it's been done. Especially at the BLS level with the introduction of albuterol administration. I will not go into specific stories of the number of times I've seen albuterol given to patients clearly in CHF with no ashtma history. I guess when I refer to expanded scope of practice, I'm thinking of all the great paramedics I've had the pleasure of working with, and how this expanded scope could benefit our patients. I've heard rave reviews from other systems on the use of CPAP, and I've seen other agencies that are extremely progressive and are even using field-induced hypothermia of post-cardiac arrest patients. Obviously medicine is not an exact science (just look at how many times the AHA BCLS and ACLS protocols change), and years of studies go into such procedures and protocols.

Sounds like, training, leadership, suppervision issues again. i understand how you feel, but consider this, If you could hire all the medics in a system, offer them $200,000/yr plus bennies. You can hire 40 medics, national search, you hire the best 40 i the US, one of them will still be your worst medic and the system must address that.

We can not add new things if the current things have not been mastered, even if its the "right thing"

I was informed by my agency that they contacted the WREMSCO for extra slots to this event and were denied. Obviously they could have been blowing smoke up my you know where, so if I am mistaken in my initial statement I will retract it.

Where there is smoke there's fire........Only way they would have been denied is if after the deadline for submission.

I'm merely stating the things that I see going on. So to address a few of your comments to my post.

Sorry you feel that way. It sounded like it to me.

Yes EMS providers must show "competence" in order to pass the state exam... yet so many who graduate are GROSSLY INCOMPETANT. I've seen individuals who have been EMT's for YEARS and still cannot perform and adequate patient assessment or even take a blood pressure for that matter. Just because someone has book smarts to pass a written exam and the cookbook scenarios given during the practical exam, in my opinion, is not a measure of competance. EMT students should be doing more time on an ambulance, practicing their skills, until an experienced EMT or Paramedic says they are competent to sit for the state exam. Maybe Phelps doesn't push people through the state exam to get their share of money from the state, but there are programs out there that do.

So the real issue is that the EMT program (in general) is not adequate. These are format issues that I agree need adressing, but they also mean more hours and everytime anyone suggests adding training time, everyone freaks out.

What do I do for EMS? I act professional. I make sure my uniforms are always in order. I attend as much training as I can, even if I have to pay for it out of my own pocket. I take as many train-the-trainer courses as I can so I can offer these courses to other EMS providers FREE OF CHARGE. I have taken a very active role in a number of progressive programs the agency I work for provides to the community. I have written articles for trade magazines, and written editorials that have been published in newspapers promoting EMS. I have done numerous public education programs at schools and career fairs. If you would like me to keep going, I'll be happy to PM you my resume and portfolio.

No need to keep going. Its clear that you do a lot to improve your EMS world. My point was you were commenting about other entities and what they should be or should not be doing. My point was everyone is willing to comment about these entities, but very few are willing to participate.

I understand nurses and doctors have to pay for ACLS and PALS, but this discussion is how EMS compares to other emergency services. If a police officer wants to get radar qualified, do they have to pay for it out of pocket? If a firefighter wants to take any of the courses offered at the DES, do they have to pay for it out of pocket? NO! So why does an EMS provider have to pay out of pocket for ACLS, PALS, NALS, PHTLS or any of the other courses traditionally available to EMS providers?

I've paid for many fire and rescue courses over the years. Its oly been the last 10 years that NYS provided Technical rescue training. Before that if you wanted it, you paid for it. What about the career fire accademy? Paid for by the local dept., Many agencies are willing to pay for courses, others are not.

In case I studdered, yes, I said only a few are permitted to the EMS dinner. Each agency is permitted a certain number of slots. At least that was the reasoning I was given when I was bumped off the list of attendees for the last dinner. With the exception of award recepients, the majority of people attending the dinner are upper level management (Line Officer, Supervisors, Managers, etc.).

Not true. No agency is given any slots. Its always been you sign up and pay. The last few years its continued to get bigger, but they would love to keep growing. Who bumped you...WCREMSCO or your agency?

I would love to attend MAC meetings and Advisory Council meetings, but I unfortunately can not afford to take off of work to attend such things, so I try to make up for it in other ways. I've spoken with regional faculty... I've talked about RSI, CPAP, hemostatic agents, expanded scope of practice for specialized paramedics (i.e. TEMS providers), clearing C-Spines in the field, etc. I'm asking for it, personally, and am still waiting to get it.

While I attend less MAC than I would like, I still rarely hear anyone requesting these items at the meetings. The MD's need a proposal that covers all issues before they are willing to risk their license on it and if it is not proposed by anyone, we will never see it. CPAP last year was proposed ad a trial was done and the agency that did it felt it was of marginal use.

An additional issue, if we have trouble now with substandard training, how do we add additional skills and expect those that are already below where they should be to be competent?

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, isn't it 1910.134?

Correct

QUOTE(jack10562 @ Feb 24 2008, 05:50 PM)

Yes. If, for example, you want to make a statement: "OSHA says you have to wear SCBA"

then you would have to cite OSHA - CFR 1910.146 Respiratory Protection as the source for your information

Easy.

1910.146 is the Confied Space standard

So what ends up happening? Agencies (paid and volunteer) end up placing individuals, whose ink is still wet on their EMT and Paramedic cards, out there to learn on their own. There is no standard for field training, and many agencies don't even have any type of field training program in place for new EMT's and Paramedics. So do we blame the agency?

Yes. If a PD or FD does not have field training and something goes wrong we blame the agency (and its leadership). Since EMS agencies are certified by DOH based on standards, if they dont meet the standards then its the agecies fault.

The same problem is being encountered with EMT and Paramedic Programs. Unlike a Fire or Police Academy, where the goal is to graduate "competent" police officers or firefighters, who will then go to their respective agencies and endure some kind of field training program, EMS programs are about making money. EMS programs receive funding from the State depending on the number of students they graduate. The more students who graduate, the more funding the program receives. So do we blame the program coordinators/instructors?

Thats not completely true. EMS students must prove "competence" (the state exam) or the state does not reimburse for the training. When I teach (Phelps) students are required to sign a contract that they are responsible to pay for the course. If they are eligible for State Fuding, they do not pay, unless they do not complete the course and the state wont pay. These policies are to cover the cost of training.

What about EMT's and Paramedics. In any emergency service, there are those individuals who are dedicated and promote professionalism within their respective field. Unfortunately though, in the field of EMS, there is a general lack of self-respect by EMS personnel. Paid personnel (especially in the field of private-for-profit) who walk around shirts untucked, stained, baseball hats on backwards, unnecessary/excessive jewelry... I can go on and on. And volunteer agencies where providers go on calls in jeans, shorts, sandals, tank tops, etc. etc. We should have some self-respect to look in the mirror before we go out in the public's eye, and the agency should be enforcing a dress code. So, are we to blame for our own misery?

agreed

What about our EMS Advisory Council, Department of Emergency Services, or NYS Bureau of EMS. What do they do for EMS? No training except for the occasional CME topic, protocols that are outdated, having to attend call audits that are, IMHO, a complete waste of my personal time, no public education to promote EMS, the one dinner they do a year to honor EMS where only a few people from each agency are permitted to attend, and the barbecue they do every year at Rye Playland. While it is a nice gesture, I personally think it is a little ridiculous that you're honoring EMS providers for saving a life while people are looking on slobbing down cheesburgers and keg beer. I personally think it's a disgrace. I would rather see our Westchester EMS Region coordinate with the local villages, towns, and cities, and do something in conjuction with the municipalities to honor EMS workers for their service. We have an EMS Advisory Council that is headed up by a Police Chief.... not a Paramedic. I still haven't seen one thing the Advisory Council has done to promote EMS... the last time the minutes on their website were updated was in 2003. So do we blame those who basically have EMS oversight in Westchester County?

Lots of issues,

What do you (or any individual or agecy) do for EMS.

Call audits are conducted by individual MD's representing the ER's. Some are very good, others are not. But that has nothing to do with the agency's you listed. In other states agencies PAY the Medical Directors for this service. In westchester we expect them to do it for free.

"only a few are permitted"....are you kidding? Maybe if you want your agency to foot the bill.

Is a union the answer... maybe. I wouldn't mind seeing a local association made up of EMS providers to speak on behalf of EMS providers. To go to the media to promote EMS and the things EMS providers do every day. To go to the Council and our Medical Advisory Committee to get the protocols that we want. To unify all of the EMS agencies in Westchester County, to provide training (why should I have to pay 200 dollars out of my own pocket for ACLS and PALS?), to establish standards for field training, maybe establish a county-wide EMS Honor Guard, to set standards for EMS agencies, to learn to work together instead of all the home rule garbage that's out there. I think for EMS to begin to advance, the first thing that has to happen is that EMS providers themselves have to learn to stand and work together. The agency patches may be different, but the State certification patches are all the same.

To speak on behalf of EMS providers....Have you or anyone you know made any effort to attend the council meetings. Half the agencies in the county have never sent a sole. There are about 50 people who have been or are active over the last 20 years.....you want change....show up!

Have you ever been to a MAC meeting. You want protocols....ASK!!!!

NRFD wanted AED's (long before it was an EMT skill)...we ASKED.

We ASKED for EPI Pens....1st BLS Agency in Westchester

We ASKED for Albuterol....1st BLS Agency in Westchester

We ASKED for Mark I Kits....1st BLS Agency in Westchester

CO moitoring.......

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT MAC and ASK for the protocols you want.

You pay for ACLS & PALS for the same reason the RN's & MD's have to pay. Its not funded.

To set Standards......We Have a County Mutual Aid Plan.....but we still have 20% of the agencies/muicipalities still have not signed onto it.

You are correct, EMS needs to stand up and participate.

The location of most firehouses was done to minimize response times (right, Barry?) but EMS doesn't have that kind of resources in most communities.

Fire Station Locations are done (in concept) to minimize response times to properties, not people. The Standards are based on property insurance.

EMS protection is based on population. This is were SSM came into being. If you have a daytime population of 300,000 but a night time one of 50,000 you have different EMS needs. Patient population also will determine EMS needs, i.e. lots of nursing homes require more EMS than shopping malls.

For FD's, buildings don't leave town and still require protection when empty. And insurance rates pay for this coverage.

Also, if you made EMS a Civil Service job, with a competitive test including a physical agility component, I'm sure you'll get higher quality people. Also, if you put these same people through an EMS Academy, just like the PD and FD academy, they'd come out better for it.

You will only get the higher quality if you invest the money into the system.

Take Boston EMS and Austin-Travis County EMS. Both are third service, municipal agencies. Both have strict and comprehensive hiring standards. It's a competitve process. Both have comprehensive academies, and high standards to meet both clinically and operationally once you hit the street. Both offer excellent pay, benefits, and equipment. Why can't we do the same here in Metro NY?

It could be done all it would take is $$$$ and all the individual services to agree to disband......good luck.

Also, about the Medic School comment. There are still some Medic Schools around that do the right thing. The Medic School I attended REQUIRED mandatory GPA's, etc etc. However, some schools nowadays are more interested in the money that the administration is forcing them to take in, then the product they put out on the street. Again, just like a FF or PD Officer starts fresh into an academy, the same should be done for EMS to ensure consistent quality providers that are all on the same level.

25 yrs ago you had to have 1 year of ALS experience (as an EMT) and take a competative test to get in to the medic class. You had more people interested than total seats in class. Now the state has moved all the programs to "accredited schools". And the law no longer allows the same level of presceening, also the number of students coming in is so low that the schools need everyone to cover the costs.

Why is it acceptable the there are budgets for brand new fire trucks, and new police cars, new scott packs, NEW stations?!? Yet it's possible for a VAC to buy an ambulance on it's own ONLY thru donations. Or a commerals ambulance to buy the cheapest one's the got going out there. Minis safety of it crew so that the big bosses can live high and mighty??

New Stations? Our stations were built in

1902, 1904, 1922, 1962, & 1962. Ad our scott packs were replaced in 2005 with a grant. Our new trucks replace 20 y/o ones that we sell for scrap metal.

The VAC's spent 20-40 years proudly claiming that they only needed donations, many even refused till recently to bill 3rd party insurance.

If you watch the commercial industry on a national level you will find many go out of biz, because the amount they can bill is below the cost of providing the service.

If your vac is failing start hiring people. Don't contract out to a paid service. Then as volleys drop there is a slow transition to paid that if the day comes that the volleys can't do the job any more there will be a system in place to create a municipal service.

This is the reason we have 20-30 agencies with part time people, almost none are big enought or busy enough to propertly function this way and will always be short of funds to run properly or provide any benefits.

If your failing, consider merging with the other EMS agencies in your area. Then when you hire, you have a large enough base to do it right.

Be professional. Do the job right and take pride in your apperance. Your uniform, no matter what it is should always be clean, in good shape, and FIT RIGHT. Wash you bus once in while even if you just hose off the salt and sand in the winter it makes a big difference.

Well said.

As I was reading X635's post on Why should EMS be left out in the cold. It got me thinking. Why should we as EMS professional settle for being treated as "Ambulance Drivers". Now I am not ranting or raving,....

Great Question. Maybe the reason that EMS in general and EMT's in particular are treated as "Ambulance Drivers" is due to lack of training, supervision and leadership.

Lets look at these 3 issues:

Training: HS Diplomia and approx 160 hrs of EMT training or 4 weeks and most commercial and vol. services will send you out on calls with minimal additional training, including driver training. To cut my hair you need over 1,000 hrs training to get licensed. When DES & DOH offers additional training only a very small % show up. In the 1980's & 1990's many of the vol. agencies fought hard against ALS because "we do not need paramedics telling our EMT's what to do". Also new EMT's are often paired with other newbies doing NH runs, so they do not get good training reinforcement.

Career FF's recieve 12 - 16 weeks of training plus in many depts EMT. Then they are assigned to other members or officers with more experience to learn the job. Police go to the accademy for 6+ months then are assigned to a training officer.

Supervision: What does it take to be a supervisor? In EMS this varies from election, to company preference, to nobody wanted it, and on occassion to the perfect candidate. In my PD you need to have a associates degree to even take the sargents test, BA/BS for Lt. and a masters for Capt., The FD does competitive testing for promotion and mandated state officer training.

How often does an EMS supervisor show up to evaluate or supervise personel? How about PD (often) & FD (most calls).

How often is the head of EMS selected by the Mayor, Supervisor, Board, etc. What about FD? PD? And do they have a seat at the government table?

Why is it? Just because we are not civil service, doesn't mean we shouldn't be treated like human beings. From personal experience sitting in an ambulance for 12hr's at a time twice a week, IS UNHEALTHY!! Yes we all know that it's not for the whole 12hrs. We do a job or 13 lol, but it's not fair. Not to mention how much you eat. Now I can't speak for everyone, but I know from at lest my point of view. I was 130lbs went I first started at where I work. In a two (2) year span I am now 218lbs. I Don't look it (Thank God), but that's unhealthy. With an EMS station, I would be able to work out possibly, Walk around, Possible play basketball, Watch TV, In other words keep my self preoccupied enough to not eat every time I'm bored. Most PD's and FD's take it for granted that they have a nice warm, and even comfortable place to stay. So what are some way's that EMS agencies that don't have a stations and have to do the "post shuffle" can fix this and possibly get what EMS needs.....

Lots of issues here.

1) Lots of other jobs require you to be in your vehicle all day: PD, DPW, truckers, taxi's, Bus drivers, USPS, UPS, FedEx, Construction, etc. etc. Being in the vehicle alone is not unhealthy. "Not fair".......my father always told me life is unfair.....bitching here does not change that.

2) Stop Eating in the Bus. Read, work on your education, get out and walk. Gaining that much is unhealthy. We see people sleeping and eating all day in EMS stations....and gaining just as much weight.

3) FD does not take it for granted, we constantly have to fight to even maintain what we have. The majority of FD Career stations in Westchester are at least 50 yrs old, many built for horse drawn fire apparatus. I know of at least 12 that are in danger of collapse and we have to fight to keep them open.

Why would us as an EMS community not want to better ourselves by combine our passion of helping our fellow man, into help one another. Just like Fire and Police, We are a brotherhood. We have made the choose of helping someone in need, yet we wont help ourselves in get recognition that we are just as important as Fire or PD. It's true what people say. No one knows about EMS until they need us. WHY IS THAT?? Yes I know I am still very young in a profession that is still growing, but the saying "nip it in the bud" comes to mind with the whole morale issue. How come we can't going to a Local government and say make EMS a civil service. How hard is it ?

Most local governments want nothing to due with EMS. Most governments do not wat to pay for it and i may of the commercial contracts they prove it with $0 cotracts. Others provide minimal levels. In the communities with VAC's or VFD's the local gov's have gotten away with providing minimal if any support, with the EMS agency going for decades proudly not even asking for help.

Next

I know this Idea as been toss around and around, but how hard would it be to start a county wide EMS system like Boston. It seems to work alot better, why wouldn't it be able to be done here? And once you answer that question ask yourself if something is stop it from coming true, How can you fix that?

Boston is a City not a county. If you look at the communities around Boston its similar to Westchester with lots of different agencies.

The problem with starting a county system is convincing each existing agency to give up its kingdom. You also have a problem with paying for it. i.e. Yonkers is Fee for service, which means no property tax is spent on service, if you start a county system you will have at a minimum start up costs, which the county will most likely use property tax to cover. Why would any taxpayer that currently does not pay for EMS want to pay for it?

I don't have a Gemtor - yet. I was wondering if you could use it with a munter hitch for bailout instead of the body belay. After thinking of this, I did see mention of a munter hitch being a last ditch alternative for descent in one of the fire magazines - talking about pick off type emergencies. Anyone tried this?

The munter is ok for 1 person only. Do not try a pick off with it. In testing we have seen it fail to stop loads over 400 Ibs.

Here's an interesting letter from OSHA - my take is that essentially pretty much everyone (PD, DPW, FF, etc) requires awareness. To respond to a dispatched (possible) Hazmat call, you need to be at the operations level per the link.

And since by definition most calls we go on are HM calls....i.e. odors, MVA's, fires, EMS all meet the definition of HM.

This is the definition that sets FF's apart from other responders:

29 CFR 1910.120(q)(6)(ii) states, "First responders at the operations level are individuals who respond to releases or potential releases of hazardous substances as part of an initial response to the site for the purpose of protecting nearby persons, property, or the environment from the effects of the release."

In the late 1980's OFPC's HM Bureau reported that Nassau county trained every ff in the county to HM Awareness and NYS DOL (PESH) sited them for not meeting the standard. Note prior to this NYS had HM 1 & 2 (1 was better than aware, but not up to ops. HM2 was better than ops but below tech. )

Incidentally, as Incident Commander, my understanding is that you are responsible for the MA you call - might be something to think about based on Bnechis earlier information.

good point

Just to clarify, 24 hours of "Ops" training - pertains to Haz-mat?

Yes Hazmat 1st Responder Operatons

If so, the Haz-Mat First Responder Ops class is only 16 hours.... where do the other 8 come from?

ICS, Competency Testing (which is not included in OFPC course) and Review of your dept's SOP's and Response Policies (not covered by OFPC).

I always thought it was required to have 12 hours?

Actually OSHA does not put a time limit...they require the FD to insure competence in a series of areas (listed in 29CFR1910.120

I hate sounding dumb, but I need to know. Thanks.

Not dumb...The majority of the fire service is unaware of the requirements. It does not help that OFPC does not tell anyone that any of there OSHA based classes (Hazmat, Confined Space, Trench) only partially meet the law. It also does not help that when they merged Basic FF & HM OPS into FF1 they only scheduled 9 hours to cover 16 hours worth of material.

Unfortunately - another law that a lot of people turn a blind eye to. Like many other things, it's been OK for the last 999 responses - but one day, that one in a million chance will happen. Something will go wrong. Maybe the missing training wouldn't have changed the situation (maybe it would) but I'm sure lack of training/qualification is going to come up and be a problem.

Sorry for the little digression Chris At least I got that off my chest

Less of a blind eye than some would think. The state training records CD clearly shows who has the training and who does not. They have said they will not allow untrained ff's from responding during a state fire mobilization. Also others have been looking at it to determine who should be requested for MA.

I was shocked to find a number of depts in Westchester that had almost no one "certified". One dept. publicly has claimed they have 45 active members, but the states list only showed 3 members could legally respond to calls. In another dept. the chief, AC and 3 Capts did not meet the standards. The AC actually had no documented training.

Now it is possible that they have the training and its just not on the states rolls, but I doubt it.

You are right they will be able to get away with it for a long time, but Its going to catch up with them.

Thanks, Barry!

A couple of "what if's" (and yes, I know I'm derailing my own thread)...

What if the Fire Chief or ranking FD officer is not qualified per 1910.120?

Then if he responded at all, he is in violation of the law. Since "ALL" ff's in NYS are required to meet the standard BEFORE they are ever allowed to respond on a call.

How will you resolve the issue of who's in charge question if there is a warrant execution at a clandestine drug lab in the City of New Rochelle? Mind you, I'm aware that you don't permit any such establishments within the city - this is purely hypothetical!

Unified Command with PD as lead. NRFD & NRPD CIU have cross trained. NRPD is incharge of the entry. NRFD will perform pre-entry med monitoring and suit out of CIU and Decon/Post Med monitoring. NRFD Can suit up to assist in detection or evidence collection (which will be done by PD) after NRPD has determined that no bad guys are present. Neither does the clean-up. PD is incharge, except for suit entry issues (if PO does not meet Med standard FD does not allow suit up).

This has been discused and drilled at length but, is still hypothetical, since our city rule of no drug lab rule has been enough to keep them out. BTW the drills were lots of fun....loved playing with the MP5's at Camp Smith.

Finally, who's gonna be in charge in New Rochelle during a coastal storm (and no you can't take the day off!)?

The Office of Emergency Managment (OEM) under the direction of the City Manager is in Charge. However in past events it is activly run by the FD. The major parts of OEM is run by FD. The City EOC and our new Dispatch Center (DPW, EMS, FD & PD) is in Fire HQ.

It all depends on the specs. Stainless is more , but you could cut the prices a huge amount by using aluminum bodies instead.

There are lots of ways to reduce the up front costs, but you may be increasing the operating cost and redusing the overall life of the rig.

Also, there many safety features that cost a lot of money, but 1 injury will cost much more, particularly if it is career ending.

It is best to balance the initial costs with the overall life costs.

Seems like alot of money for an engine and a rescue. Is there anything else involved?

Have you seen the price of stainless steel today? Buy it before it passes gold.........

Just curious (not a loaded question intended to start a pissing contest).... I thought that R-4 was OOS most of the time due to staffing being assigned to the remainder of FDNR units. If this is still the case, then why replace?

The why replace it is because its 17 years old. Just because it does not run on all calls does not mean we do not need to have a reliable unit to perform technical rescue.