Bnechis

What exactly is "10-20." If you want to even use plain english "proceed with caution," everyone does that on every call. You either need ALS or you do not. Decisions aren't generally made across a radio. The old signal 10-20 is a misnomer that departments/agencies should have written a policy on for what to do. I've seen the gambit. You are either Hot or Cold...lights/sirens or nothing at all. There is no in between. You tell me to proceed with caution you may be sitting there waiting for me for a while because I'm shutting everything down.

10-20 was always supposed to mean, proceed under normal driving rules. But it did not fit nice on the cheat sheets, so it was written "proceed with caution".

Everytime 60 Control uses the plain speak with this line, I cring. since we should always proceed with caution, isn't that the law. I think that term, just makes it more likely you'll end up talking to lawyers.

1- I feel the police officer on the scene is qualified to assess "his scene" and can make a decision to cancel either fire or ems, or both, if not needed.

If the officer is not trainined then how can he/she be qualified?

Our PD likes to transport psychs to MVH and often has had EMS disreguard or RMA these pts. then they are transported by PD. in 2006, 4 of those pts were admitted to MVH ICU for metabolic problems, not psych.

2- Dispatch only relies on "hearsay" and that is not sufficient cause to change response. I don't recall having ever heard a responding Chief or officer issue orders to slow down or return, based on a radio report, unless it was from someone qualified, already on the scene.

Once the situation is confirmed, then he/she can safely order a non-emergency response, or cancellation.

We do this almost every day. Home owner calls and says the A/A was steam from a shower, or cooking or the fire place damper was not open, we send everyone back except the 1st due Eng. who continues at non-emergency mode.

We have over 40,000 automatic alarms in the last 20 years and less than a dozen have been working fires. Can't risk getting members or the public killed on these numbers. I bet we have had more workers descovered by just spotting them when out driving (training, inspections, dinner, etc.)

3- An EMT should be able to downgrade the call to BLS, once PT condition is known. ALS can then decide whether to continue in, 10-20.

Generally yes. But, over the years I've seen a few crews that would downgrade everything because they didn't like ALS. So downgrading is fine as long as there is a good QI/QA program to keep things on track.

Ok, I definitely understand the need/use of the netting. My question now is, in today's litigous society, is it only a matter of time before we have to retrofit rigs to prevent this from happening across the board? I know that where I work, it can take the city well over 20 years to replace a rig, and I know that where I grew up, they had a '64 in active service up until the late 90's. I'm assuming the standard only applies to new apparatus as of a certain date.

At the FDSOA conference, the chair of NFPA 1901 stated that the new standard will require all 1980 - 1991 apparatus to be refirbished and all 1979 or older rigs to be taken out of service.

Looks like 20 years before referb and 30 years out of service.

Thats my question as well, does NFPA 1901 require all existing apparatus to be retrofitted? We just got a new rig in 2005 and it doesnt have the netting, and was wondering if we had to get it and our other engines retrofitted now?

They only require retrofit if the rig is referbished

Climbing ropes are good for 2 years OR one fall, you must visually inspect and feel the rope for any breaks or hard and soft spots which can represent splitting in the rope. Also NFPA might have a requirement for annual or semi-annual replacement.

Note: 1 fall on all climbing ropes, even ones listed as a "6" fall rope. The number is for comparrison only, i.e. 5 fall is better than a 3 fall.

NFPA does not require annual/semi replacement. they require inspection.

Most manufacterers claim the nylon losses 1% per year just due to exposure to air. General belief is 10% or 10 years is max for nylon....ropes, harnesses, webbing, etc.

Other exposure: UV (sunlight), corrosives (note: air is slightly corrosive to nylon), heat will reduce the life.

Consider your harness, particularly if it is outside your bunkers

At the LI "MEGA" Show almost every rig had a different system for securing the netting some good (you could undo it with fire gloves on), some I could not release even without gloves. When specing your system you need to consider this.

One rig was so secure, the hose may never come off.

It is amazing how many people park their cars in front of the apparatus bay doors and get food next door. Fire HQ is terrible to try to get out of. You pull out slowly with lights and a siren on and drivers could care less.

Push a few of them out of the way with the rig bumper and the word will get out.....

..... I would also feel it is not in my place unless I was asked. So if one was sitting in on a class and did get called out on and EMS run when you get back you are in the dark about what happened the past say hour. So I just wasted my time when I could have been sleeping. LOL.

Sorry you feel you can ask here for training, but not in a place that is doing it.

Our crews often get called out as well, sometimes we stop, sometimes we will review what we covered, but we never go back to bed.

I would definitely agree that some EMSers are not in good enough physical condition to even consider this. Heck, you might need to set up a rigging exercise just to get them out of bed.

Those providers are generally not worth setting up a haul system, we will just get a sked and drag them to the rig.

Same thing here Oneeyed, not once was I ever asked if I wanted to sit in on a class or participate in any way. We were always the red headed step children that were banished to the basement of the Firehouse. Maybe things have changed, but I didn't feel that we were as welcome as it's been made to sound.

I personnal use to invite crews and almost never did anyone sit in. Even when I told them I had CME sheets for the class. Maybe when some of the "red headed step children" say not interested and go into the room sut the lights off and drop on the sofa enough times, we group everyone together and stop asking.

They were never banished other than by themselves. I worked AMB1 for 4 years before going to NYC and al I ever had to do was say "can I participate" and was never turned down.

Last year I ran a series of drills on how to remove a patient from the operators booth of one of the tower cranes (trump & avalon) the classes were on the apparatus floor and I invited at least 3 different crews, none were interested.

Sounds very easy, but now you are basically putting an EMS provider on the spot to operate in an environment they may not be familiar with, with equipment they're not familiar with, even if the only skill they need is walking.

We train everyday and often invite the EMS crews to participate. Even if there is not a specific invite, they have always been welcome. Much of the classroom work takes place 20' from 30A1's quarters and the crews walk back and forth thru the classes.

It is a rare event when they even sit in. When I have invited them in, 90% of the time the crews are not interested...too busy doing "EMS" - Earning Money Sleeping. Back longer ago than I care to admit my 2 partners on NR AMB 1 and I sat in for almost the entire "probie" school.

Being exposed to this environment through training, in my opinion, will only benefit a provider if they do ever have to operate in such a scenario. Providers should have some level of comfort in a particular environment through training and exposure to that environment before they are expected to perform in a real life situation.

Agreed

Speaking from a TEMS perspective, if there were a school shooting and I was an untrained provider, I wouldn't be comfortable if a SWAT officer said, hey this victim-rescue stuff is easy, just throw on this vest and helmet. The only skill you need is running.

Almost all non LEO responders fall into this boat this, this is an issue for everyone. This is one of the reasons we have done some cross training (but need a whole lot more) with NRPD's CIU.....my fav was firing the MP5 at camp smith (can we get them for the rig?).

Of greater importance, Over the years I've noticed that many in EMS are not in good enough physical condition to run for their lives or anyone elses, much less get lowered into a confined space.

EMS does not take training seriously - you're right!

"Very easy", "only pre-requisite is walking", and yet it takes 12-16 hours of training to perform the skills! How many EMS providers train for low angle rescue? Forget high angle/confined area/haz-mat where training may be much longer. Four nights or two days and people can't even get this basic training? It's pathetic!

Chris, it takes 12-16 hrs to teach the rigging, lowering and hauling systems. the "walking" was how much (or little) we could get away with.

What is rapid removal is not possible? What if you have access to an arm to initiate IV fluids? What if you want a paramedic to make a determination if this a rescue or a recovery? It's almost impossible to do any real patient care, but not totally impossible, especially depending on the size of the confined space.

It may not be, but in my experience most spaces would not allow for ALS often due to extreme contamination, limited space and other hazards. rescue vs. recovery...If an EMT (even a ff EMT) can not tell if the victim is breathing or not, maybe the training needs should be on basic EMT skills. And in most cases Rescue vs. recovery determinations are based on space conditions not patient conditions...i.e. the person went in to the xylen tank and has not moved in 20 min. if the IDLH level is deadly in 3 minutes, the IC would determine it to be a recovery.

I have been in spaces that were over 500' in diameter that still were confined spaces and you would not be able to do patient care because of conditions. Size of the space is only one issue.

I can see we are still knit-picking here and not taking what I'm saying for face value, so I will once again use yet another example for you to try to rip apart...

You dont want knit picking but then you keep giving examples. I understand your intent, I spent many years trying to convince EMS and fire agencies to train for this without sucsess. Took almost 15 years to convince NYS that rescue training was even needed. While EMS is critical to the patient during the rescue, EMS still does not take main aspects of EMS training serious. MCI & Triage training, rescue scene safety, decon training, etc.

Car goes over a guardrail down an steep embankment. Person is pinned in the vehicle, and part of the extrication process involves the use of ropes, rappelling down to the victim's vehicle, and a mechanical advantage system to raise the victim up the slope. The way things are now, your ALS unit will have to stand up there by the guardrail and wait for the patient to come to them. How about properly training EMS providers so they can safely and appropriately access the patient along with FD so they can begin patient care while FD performs the extrication?

Very easy, if we need them. Put them in a harness and lower them down. The only skill they need is walking. To teach low angle (lowering, MA & packaging) skills takes about 12-16 hours.

Another great skill is how to lower a patient from upper floors down an interior stairs. 24 story tower, elevators out, 300# MI patient day crew is a 65y/o "driver" and two 19 y/o EMT's who combined weigh about 200 Ibs. This crew was able to lower the pt. 24 floors in 12 min. (including set up time)....no carry down. The hardest part was trying to keep up with them with my VHS Recorder.

Let's take the City of Yonkers as an example. I know that the Yonkers Fire Department's Rescue company is properly trained, equipped, and more than capable when it comes to a CSR. But are any Empress Paramedics currently trained to work alongside the Fire Departments Rescue Company, so in the event of a CSR, they can put an appropriately trained and equipped paramedic in there to evaluate the patient and begin treatment? As I stated in my previous post that the only function of the EMS provider would be patient access and care, not one of executing a technical rescue. Executing a technical rescue (i.e. setting up rope systems or air monitoring/sampling), is the responsibility of those who are trained to do so (which is for the most part FD's in this area).

Since 90% of confined space incidents include a hazardous atmosphere, the proper patient assesment is positive pressure scba or sar and rapid removal. In most cases, it is almost imposible to do any real pt care in a confined space. YFD has practiced CS immobilization and removal, while providing positive presure breathing air in both verticl and horizontal spaces and that should more than suffice.

If I respond to a confined space job, I want to have the training and the knowledge on how to enter that confined space, conduct a patient assessment, and begin whatever treatment I feasibly can. If I respond to some form of a rope rescue, whether it's a rollover down a steep embankment or an individual having an MI up in a water tower, I want to be able to access that patient and begin providing treatment.

If you respond to a CSR do you have multi gas detectors, fullbody harnesses, extraction gear (for yourself), SAR and a certified attendant, if not you can have all the training in the world, you still cant go in.

Even if you have the training and equipment to do rope rescue, water towers are a specialty and having been up on about 25 of them I can tell you that no rope rescue classes I'm aware of teach water towers, unless its intended to teach it.

The first time you climb an exterior water tower ladder and find it climbs differently than any other ladder, because its almost vertical, then after climbing 16 or 18 stories, the ladder tips backwards (beyond 90 degrees) for the last 20 feet and when you get to the top you find the opening is narrower than you are and you have to hold yourself sideways to get on. And 1/2 the time the local FD, EMS PD or DPW has installed an antenna in the opening (because they could not get past this point. Now consider that this is a confined space incident, with a worker inside the tank, you need to get all the CSR gear up, to lower the crew inside (always lash the tripod to the top of the water tower).

The MI patient better hope the rope rescue team understands water tower rescue.

About 20 years ago a worker fell of a water tower in central tx. was left hanging in a safety harness. Local FD responded and there new rescue team rappeled down to "save" him. 2 hours later atech rescue team showed up to rescue the victim and the trapped local ff's. they had lost circulation in their legs after being unable to perform the rescue or self rescue.

I don't think it's fair to the patient to have to wait until the technical rescue is completed before the patient is afforded advanced life support medical care. It's like Chris192 stated, and he hit the nail on the head, with any form of technical rescue, there is always a patient involved. A patient whom we as medical providers are responsible for. As far as I'm concerned,

Agreed, That was one of the reasons that NR started its EMT training in the 1970's

from what i was told in class Intro to Fire Officer is that the Lights are there to tell you the amount of water in the tank. Upstate where and it sometimes seems down here with lack of man power the pump operater can put the truck in pump and then take off and go in side the building to help put the fire out. The Lights would indcate how much water is left so they can look out of the window and see when they have to Retreat from the building. I guess it is a good idea if you ever got stuck in a jam and only a few people show up.

Its a good idea for everyone on scene to know the status of the water. Sometimes when no radios are available also a quick glance saves asking.

If the MPO needs to go in and help, then maybe that dept should not be doing interior attack. This is a good way to get the whole crew killed.

If you do not have enough members to meet 2 in / 2 out it is time to rethink what good you are doing.

Steve, I heard Fairview doing their 1810 radio test on the trunked system earlier this week, and I could swear that I heard NR Ladder 12 on the air, once.

Ve have vays around zee lock...

any thread anyone wants, we can take a look at....

NR has used it when going MA to MVFD & LFD. We can talk direct to all our regular MA requesters (on the system we developed prior to trunked).

and they just did a thing on Snooze 12 that the crime rate in WPi s the lowest in 42 years. Dose this count?

The report on the crime rate said they have had no murders in the last 5 years. Did anyone else pick up on that?

I figured the one in the gallarea garage was one.

I have a couple of questions for Captain Barry.

For those of us in Vollyland, where we are suppost to bring 36 people, does that mean every call or every structure fire?

Also, what if an IC decides that the fire does not require 36 people and keeps apparatus and manpower in quarters? Can they do that?

Every "fire" call. ISO does not define this. It use to mean automatic alarms, but if you classify them as auto alarms and not "fires" thats another story. But any call that is reported as a fire (no matter how small) needs the full response.

Once the IC determines it is not a "fire"he can turn everyone around or keep them in qtrs. but you need toget a list of who was there (most do that for points anyway).

Great topic JJB. I have been interested in taking a Rope Rescue class for sometime now. I would LOVE to take a BASIC COURSE in ROPE RESCUE but shouldn't have to pay out of my pocket for it. If you are affliliated with an FD in WEST and take a class it is PAID for through the DEPT right? Are these classes opened up to anyone? You can sign up but might get bumped by a FF? DES is the DEPT OF EMERGENCY SERVICES isn't it? Well PD and EMS fits into that category so all classes should be opened up to everyone.

Its paid for by NYS OFPC (Office of Fire Prevention & Control)not DES.

This question goes out to career and volunteer EMS providers and is simply one out of curiousity. Besides the basic education that is currently available for EMS providers, which includes the EMT-B, I, and P programs, along with ACLS and PALS for advanced providers, do you think that EMS providers could benefit from any other type of additional training, or do you feel that there is an overall lack of available training for EMS providers?

EMS providers and their patients would clearly benefit. The lack of available training is inpart due to a major lack of interest on the part of EMS in general.

I ask this question for a few reasons. The first is because as I research other larger EMS agencies across the country, I see that EMS providers are much better trained and prepared than a lot of local providers. Additional training includes specialized training in Hazardous Materials, Tactical Medicine, Basic Rope/Confined Space Rescue (more for accessing patients in difficult situations and not necessarily acting as a full technical rescue team), Water/Dive Rescue as either a medical support function or as a fully integrated member of a water/dive rescue unit.

When the county set up the the mass decon program, we requested all EMS agencies send as many members as possible, we ran about 10 classes andwith the exceptionof FD EMS or membersof FD's we had almost no participation. Dozens of WMD awarness courses for EMS were offered and almost all cancelled when no one showed up.

Over the last 20 years I've run 100's of classes and Ifindonly a small % of EMS providers are everinterested.

The second reason I ask this question is because when I look at the training bulletins on the DES training page (Westchester County), I always see a number of courses offered for firefighters. Whether it's FF1, Rescue Technician, AVET, HazMat Tech, etc. etc. But when you look at the training for EMS, the topics are basically simple CME's on how to write PCR's or how to make proper notifications for cases of suspected child abuse. As I EMS provider, I have contacted DES numerous times to register for courses, specifically Hazmat Tech and Rescue Technician. I was told that these courses were only for firefighters, and I had to either be affiliated with an FD or, similiar to what happened with the HazMat Tech course, I was bumped off the list because FF's get preference to the spots.

That is because the classes are run by OFPC not DES (they are just the host). Many of the classes require that you are insured by your agency and all FD's are mandated by law to do that.

Any training I've wanted or received I've had to go to a private training organization (Dive Rescue Int'l, Lifesaving Resources, START Rescue) and pay out of pocket to receive training and knowledge that I personally feel would be beneficial for an EMS provider to possess.

Go back about 10 years and NYS did not provide rescue training (except vehicle) and if you wanted it you had to go private, that was for FD and EMS. For 18 years I ran classes all over the region (Westchester, Rockland, Dutchass, Orange and in NJ)and very few EMS providers got involved. I always felt it was because of $$$, but since I've also taught many freebies I don't think its true.

What about requiring municipal workers to be trained as ff to supplement the fd? Just a thought.

1) then who is going to do their work? I pay for them to maintain the city.

2) The training done on or off duty...who pays.

3) ISO will consider them on call only...so you still need 36 of them.

4) if you force them (make it a job requirement) They become career ff's then need the full traiining and will no longer be able to do the DPW job.

How many departments even have 36 truly active members that you can count on be it day or night?

How many departments would you need to mutual aid to cover the 36, and these are minimums we are talking about.

Mutual aid does not count. Automatic aid gets 90% credit, but only if the giving dept has the same or better rating than the recieving.

Thanks for the synopsis. I knew my recollection was fuzzy but was too lazy to actually go back and search for each post so I blended them together.

As for the 1/12, 1/36 standard. I think they're creating a depth to insure that the IC actually winds up with the 12 recommended when the call comes in. Three rostered people for every one position required for the job. That's much the same way that NDMS rosters disaster medical assistance teams. They recommend 3-4 people for each of the 35 (or so) positions required for deployment. The problem is we all know that volunteer agencies have two numbers - the number of "rostered" active members and the number of actual warm bodies with a pulse that show up when the tones go off. I've heard pretty scary numbers from some agencies, "oh we have 100 members - on paper but only 15 are really active". You know the BS.

No problem.

Its not 36 rostered. ISO requires 36 ff to actually respond on every fire unless you haved staffed stations. Then its 12.

Part of that is with a 1 min turnout time (staffed) the fire will not be as bad as with an 6, 10, 20...etc. minute turnout time.

ISO is saying that staffed houses are the way to go. ANd this is nothing new, they have been saying it for over 100 years.

If I remember Barry's comments about ISO and such, the recommendation was 12 FF / 1 IC on scene in 8 minutes or less. In this model, they're not even responding in eight minutes or less.

Chris you are combining a couple of different posts of mine.

ISO does not have a response time, they have a distance (1.5 mile for engines, 2.5 for ladders/service co.) and assume that your times are based on the distance.

ISO's 12ff / 1 IC is the minimum # of responders you need "ON DUTY" in the firehouse. In VFD's without inhouse duty crews you need 36 ff's / 1 IC. ISO appears to be assuming that this response delay is going to require 3x the numbers (maybe to deal with the bedroom fire that 10 min later is the whole house).

The 8 min resposnse is based on NFPA 1710 which uses the time/temperature curve to determine when flashover is likely to occur (which also means the fire has spread beyond the area of origin). It is also the ALS response time requirement for both 1710 and the AHA for cardiac emergencies.

1710 requires 15 to 16 career firefighters (at a minimum) be on scene in 8 minutes. The 3 additional ff's that 1710 wants over ISO is for FAST and FF accountability.

NFPA 1720 is the vollie response standard and it just says you need to respond with enough people to get the job done. With no time standard. So 10 min with no response is considered ok by those that created the standard.

HOW CAN THIS BE? We have 2 Different standards....career in 8 min and vol in whenever they show up?

Town of Mamaroneck Eng 37 ran a ward. it was replaced around 1984

New Rochelle E23, replaced in 1988. Was sold to Eastchester. Hit a pole behind lord & taylors and that was it.

New Cannaan replaced tanker 8, this fall.