Bnechis

Excellent post Seth and you hit the nail on the head. I guarantee a majority of times its politics and personalities that stand in the way of increasing staffing levels and purchasing new equipment, not because of a lack of $$$$. Hell, with all the grants now available to allocate additional equipment and staffing, there's no reason CAREER DEPTS. should be shorthanded. You just need somebody to take the bull by the horns, show a little initiative, and start applying for them, instead if sitting around all day complaining. There's even professional grant writers out there for hire.

While it may not be a lack of money in the community, it is a lack of total tax base. and its being split by FD, PD, EMS, Parks, etc. and the politcal leadership gives the money to what they think gets them the votes. Nobody wants to fund the FD, until they are dialing 911, because they don't believe they are ever going to need it personnaly (check on the Larchmont fire...that may be the exception).

Which grants would those be? New Rochelle got a SAFER Grant (the only one out there for personel), they only pay 20% of the cost over 4 yrs. thats not a grant...its a coupon. We also got 6 Fire Act grants and they cover 70-95% of the cost (based on population) they dont cover it all. In fact Our 2006 grant for turnouts was cut down to the price of the cheapest gear that in concept met NFPA standards, infact the standard changed between writing the grant and recieving it and they refused to pay the difference, which would mean we could not buy the gear, because it was substandard. We chose to buy the proper gear and actually paid 34% of the cost (should have been 20%). I am not complaining about these grants, they have been a major help. But they do not solve the problem. Also be careful about the pro grant writers, 1) you must pay them 1st (Federal rules) even if you do not get the grant, 2) some of them have lower sucsess rates than inhouse, 3) A dept in West. Mass got massive grants with one and then found out it may have all been a fraud.

All too often many think consolidation or merging Depts. is the answer. I say that should be used as a last resort. Maybe it would be justifiable for the smaller combo Depts. in lower West.Cnty but not for a larger City such as MT.Vernon, especially in todays day in age. There should be no reason for it.

1) If not consolidation what do you suggest to solve these issues?

2) If depts have been asking for manpower and equipment, etc. for 20, 30 yrs when does this become the "last resort"?

3) If this is not a way to solve some of MT Vernons issues, what do you suggest?

4) Explain "especially in todays day in age"

Besides, if one Depts. standards are lower than a neighboring Depts. standards as far as hiring practices, how could you even justify it. I know I'd be pretty pissed off if my Dept. merged with a neighboring Dept. that had lower or even no standards at all for becoming a ff.

What standards would those be? If you are claiming that MVFD uses a different standard than say one of the combo departments, you are correct. The 4 cities testing has to meet the Federal Consent decre which is stricter than the Towns / Village Civil Service Requirements.

More important dont all career ff's now have to pass the same test in the 1st yr?

and was known for skipping guys when it came to promotions and holding on too and carrying thru to their retirement incompetent individuals. Why should someone get the same salary as me that didn't have to meet the same stringent criteria that I had to, and were practically handed their job! Then again, maybe that would be the answer to this never ending saga!

Setting up a performance (standards) driven department is the best way to solve that

So, am I correct that the first trailer park in Mount Vernon history has been established at FDMV HQ's???

It may not have been a trailer "park" but back in the "day" Mt Vernon EMS lived in a trailer next to FD Station #3, complete with bullet holes from the projects and no running water. Sta #3 allowed us to use there bathroom.

All would be controlled and managed by the Westchester County - Department of Emergency Services, dispatched by 60 Control, with sets of District Cheifs, Assistant Chiefs, etc.

I think the big hurdle to this is has been in the news the last 6 weeks; how many people (not emergency service types) have been calling for the ellimination of county government.

I don't see a lot of trust in our county government in general.

On the fire side, where is the majority of the fire experience along with fire service managment experience. is it in the county government or in the 4 cities?

I will just pose a question and no one get your dander up.

Does this fire and so many other fires in the southern part of the county justify a 4-7 department response/mutual aid response. As it has been mentioned in many other topics, if you can't handle your "bread and butter" fires maybe there should be an evaluation. The evaluation of a broad range of things.

It seams that in the past year or two when there's a 1 or 2 rooms with "heavy fire or smoke" showing the 'button' gets pushed. I know everyone will say you need to get help to the scene, but these are the fires that were handled with the 1st alarm assignment with 1 dept. relocating to cover.

To have so much responding puts a lot of people at risk and reduces the coverage of the relocating depts.

Remember this is only a question and not aimed at any department. It just seams to be the rule not the exception.

100% on target

(excpt don't you need hair for the dander part)

The FREE kind..

"you get what you pay for"

Since the department is required by law to provide the gear, why would you not want the best?

And the "Best" does not always mean the most expensive.

In Feb 2007 we got a Fire Act grant for turnout gear. Because of our population our match should be 20%. we found that the cheepest gear on the market that met NFPA's 2002 Standard, but not the 2006 (no drag harness) was what the grant would cover. The grant requires we meet NFPA. We asked about the cost difference and were told we could make up the difference.

Note: when we wrote the grant in Feb 06' we asked for the difference, stating the NFPA change would go into effect before the awards.

We spec morning pride because we feel they are superior. We made up the difference, our share was 34%.

We are still gratefull for the grant, but this shows the $$$ issue on gear.

I feel it is a personal preference. I have had both gxtreme and morning pride, and I feel that gxtreme is much more comfertable then morning pride. In my opinion morning pride feels heavier too.

Gear options include fabric weight, for all components, shell, liner, etc. So one maybe lighter if its spec'ed that way. Some depts like that because its lighter, i.e not as hot (important in FL or Tx) but that also means less protection. It also may be cheaper.

Just to add to this, if for the sake of argument, after a certain amount of time (we'll say 8-10 minutes) a requested mutual aid unit has not responded to multiple tone outs, the dispatcher will tone out the next closest department, or re-direct the relocator into the scene and back fill as necessary.

If this is occuring why? if a dept can not get out MA or in its own district in this time who is responsable?

Let me ask a question, and I believe I have asked this before. This subject has been brought up numerous times in the past. Why doesn't the county Fire Coordinator step up and say, "We are going to formulate a county wide Mutual Aid system."

1. The Coordinator and the Deputy Coordinators set up the plan and tell the chiefs of each department that this is how it's going to be.

2. Any issues with it will be taken into consideration, and they will try to accomodate the requests of the chiefs.

3. Mutual Aid will be dispatched by location of incident, and CLOSEST AVAIALABLE resources that the IC requests.

Lots of issues here:

1) The fire coordinator does not have the legal authority or the legal reponsability to do it. Both rest with the local fire chief.

2) When you have career chiefs who have worked up thru the ranks for 30+ years they may have a better grasp than an appointed indivudual that may or may not have the experience (and I'm not picking on anyone or even thinking of an individual here)

3) Closest available is only useful if they have proper manning and proper training and supervision. i.e. If we can get a ladder MA in 4 minutes with a 60y/o driver and an new ff with ff1 almost completed on it, or wait 8 min to get 3ff's /1 officer all well seasond should we go with the closest unit or....?

If the chief doesn't like what the coordinators have set forward, gee, too bad. Gotta play nice in the sandbox.

Actually the chiefs responsibility is to provide a proper response to his area, the coordinators are there to coordinate his requests not to dictate. While you should play nice, this has nothing to do with it.

When a multiple alarm is transmitted, this is where the chiefs of each department can have a say as to what constitutes response on a multiple. We'll say two engines and a tanker with an ambulance toned out. However, where they will come from will also come under the closest available criteria.

See closest above. This is also the reason that OFPC set up the staging system for FDNY. They check to make sure you are qualified before you can go MA. If you review the training CD that they use and check for complance you find that many depts in Westchester have very few members that actually meet the minimum standards under OSHA to repond in there own district, much less on MA. It is possible that the records are not correct, but the courts always follow the concept "ifits not documented, it was not done"

Any responding chiefs from other departments will be given tasks by 12-1-2, and then ordered to assignment by either the Deputy Fire Coordinator, or Fire Coordinator upon arrival at the scene.

The assignments should come from the IC, not the Coordinator.

Under NIMS what title does the Coordinator get and what is his responsability?

Pay attention, practice for the practical on your friends and take practice tests........

And not to start a fight, but only learning the stuff here: http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/pdf/emtpse08-06.pdf makes you a robot and a bad EMT, learn everything you can within the scope of your practice. Then study the hell out of those sheets to pass the practical. If you only study those sheets, you will pass, but you won't do well in the field.

FDNY is 110% correct.

If you want to be a good EMT DO NOT LOOK AT THE INFO ON THE WEBSITE UNTIL You have mastered the skills. Your instructor will give them to you when the time is right. Then memorize them.

I have been an EMT and Paramedic Instructor for 25 yrs and on DOH Regional Faculty (RF's certify Instructors) and Everyone at DOH Training agrees that if you only learn the sheets, you perform poorly therefore we teach instructors to not use them until the students master the skills. You will find it easier to memorize the sheets once you have the background.

GOOD LUCK.

If you do the reading and pay attention you will do well.

My 1st instructor had a good concept: "If you are not trying hard enough and just trying to slide by, why should I allow you to respond to my mother when she needs EMS"

I believe to volunteer and be paid in the same department even as a janitor is a violation of the Fair Labor Standards Act, that is Federal Law. Check it out.

FLSA clearly states you can volunteer and work in the same place as long as you do not do the same function in each. For example you can not be a paid ff in the same dept you are a volunteer in. Federal courts in region #3 ruled that a Maryland career ff who volunteered in a different house in the same dep was owed OT for all his vol hours under FLSA, and all others inhis situation were also.

In other cases it means if you work as a clerk for a church, you can volunteer for that church to do painting as long as its not part of your job function.

The law was designed to protect workers from the employeer "forcing" them to volunteer.

New Rochelle did 8,774 documented (we figure a cpl hundred more in 2 storms got lost in the shuffel)

About 1,000 calls more than 2006

On Long Island they are called "Housemen" and respond when a call comes in, DC Pells is correct in New York your a Volunteer or a Career and both have specific laws concerning them. I am not sure where "bunkers " come into play or how they are covered. But hireing someone then asking them to go to alarms just isnt right.

The Newsday Series stated that combined there are 1,200 Housemen on Long Island. Eliminate the duplication of depts and this goes along way toward the total needed force.

As for hiring fire-fighters, what if there's a call every other day, say. Do you have the firefighter cutting grass? Oops - been there before.

What's the taxpayer going to say when they hear they're paying someone 40 hours to go to 5 automatic alarms? Sure, once, twice maybe more you get a worker but that's not my house (probably).

About the only thing I could see to sell this is if you could say that going career would improve ISO, reduce insurance rates and those savings would offset tax increases then you might get most people to buy in to it.

The ISO route is the way to justify it. While we are doing 9,000 runs/yr, we cost the average taxpayer $325/yr but save them $900/yr (even if we never respond to a call we are saving property owners $$$).

Also consider the ISO manpower requirement:

36ff's & an IC for "on-call" (volunteers or paid on call)

12ff's & an IC for "staffed" (career or onduty in station vol)

these nembers are required on every call. How many VFD's these days get 36/1 personnel on a fire call?

Do the recall members live in town? Who does the recall, wil it tie up a Dispatcher? How fast can they get back in town, without driving crazy. What apparatus do they use, or do they go right to scene? Do they have to get gear at the station first? All this sounds good to get the guys some OT but how fast and efficient is this system? Mutual aid = Manpower.

We recall members using a web based phone system that calls multi members at a time (up to all in 60 seconds).

Dispatch has told us they will not do it. So we have 2 call back coordinators, who can handle it from any phone or PC. The DC advises them how much personnel and they send the message accordingly. Member get notified at home, cell, pager, E-mail & blackberry at sametime. Unless its an all hands callback, members can phone acknowledge (ie. press 1 responding) when the required #'s are met they can advise no others needed.

We dont limit to in-town, because members maybe intown, but not live intown. We expect members who are too far away only to call in if it sounds like this may go on for extended (it takes them 45 min to respond, to a 6 hr fire may be fine).

Driving crazy? like some of the blue lighters do?

All members called back are to respond to their Fire Station (to get gear and sign onduty and call in for assignments). Members maybe assigned to spare apparatus (ISO requires 1 spare engine for up to 7 front line eng., same for ladder. so if you own 1 engine or 1 ladder, ISO requires a spare for each)

Often, the IC will request manpower to the scene. then members will go in a dept vehicle.

We can usually get a dozen members in 15-20 minutes. This does not replace MA. but it helps limit the need for it.

For the last 19 years we have been using Angus Gate Valves with a 25 degree elbow, pressure relief valve and 5" storz as our primary intake valves.

We are working on our next engine and were advised that the above unit has been or is about to be disconntinued.

Our options include:

Ball Intake Relief Valves

TFT

Kochek

Akron

Piston Intake Relief Valves

Elkhart

Snap tite

Automatic Pre Con Valve

Hydra Shield

Or Waterous makes valves that go behind the pump panel

We would like to get feed back (good and bad)

We do not like the relief valve on the bottom (can't be field adjusted as needed)

Hydra Shields can be adjusted, but we have little experience with the auto valve.

Thanks for the feedback.

It's the President's house, so i'm pretty sure they have plans on deck in the event there was a fire emergency there. Likewise, I've often seen an engine stationed on the white house premises, maybe off to the side on the lawn. Not sure if this is for the white house itself or for the helicopter and i have no idea how its staffed.

It is and has always been known as "the peoples house" we just allow the president and his family to live there

Norwalk FD Assignments:

Target hazards (schools, nursing homes, manufacturing, waterflow alarms): 2 engines, 1 Truck, 1 Rescue and the Deputy

Lesser target hazards (schools after hours, large commercial occupancies): 1 engine, 1 truck

Stills (home alarms etc. with no second source): 1 engine

Reported working fires or second sources: additional truck as the RIT

MVA or other industrial accidents: Rescue, 1st due engine and the Deputy

Car fires on limited access highways: 1st due engine and the Deputy

Marine Ops: Engine 5 to the boat launch to man the boat with the crew

Our responses are similar with the following exceptions:

2 engines (& DC) on limited access (for extra water)

additional engine (not truck) as FAST

Lesser target hazards schools after hours is interesting, because

1) unless it is middle of night, may be occupied (PTA, shows, night school, clubs, etc.)

2) We have had 3 serious fires in 3 different schools all after hours. the largest was the High school in 1968 at the time it was the largest (in $$) school fire in history (unditected burned up to a common cockloft then ran 800' off it before discovery) It cost $4 m to repair (that was back when gasoline was about 25 cents) and took 12 years to complete the repairs.

With such a large community investment, even with a lower than normal life hazard, We are more comfortable with a larger response.

We do have blue lights on the rear of our 2 new buses. There are 2 blue lights on the rear lightbar and the upper halves of our 900 series LEDs are blue and the bottom halves are amber. Our local PDs have no problem with this. They know th reason why we have blue is the same reason why they now have blue. The NYSP in this area also seem to not have a problem with us having blue in the back.

A good amount of the new fire and EMS vehicles in this area are going with at least one blue light on the rear of their vehicles.

I will not say who, but a few of our local agencies have been testing the waters with blue in the front. I think that in some areas blue in the front will be accepted and you will see it more and more.

While they state and local PD's may not have an issue, how do you think the courts will rule in a civil case if the vehicle is involved in an MVA. or even if while stopped at an incident and someone runs into it?

Is this responsable to the taxpayers to financially put them at risk by violating NYS V&T, even if the blue lts are a good idea?

NY is in the stone age, they should all have a siren in their car. They would have to come up with a use policy and a class for it, but if it was your house on fire you would want those guys there faster than a bugs a$$ hits his face on your windshield! Having a siren does not mean you have the right to drive like an idiot. The laws of physics should be taught too, ya know, no two pieces of matter (steel, aluminum, automobiles) can occupy the same space!

Don't we have enough LODD each year without this!

If you wreak your private vehicle with RLS on it your insurance company is going to drop you if they didn't know about it. and if they do know they are going to charge you more.

If it was my house I'd want the crews on duty in the station ready to respond.

Actually if its my house I get 3E, 2L, 1 IC...19+ onduty ff's from 3 directions all within 1.5 miles (ISO requirement for over 100 years) and if its a real incident there is another 2E &1L. My cost for all of this is $275/yr.

Again we will agree to disagree...if you really want to get down to $ and cents...the taxpayer is getting a break, as a Volly Chief you are doing a job that would pay that person upwards of $100,000 not counting medical, and your doing it for free. I think use of the Chiefs car is a deal for the taxpayer.

The taxpayer is only getting a break if the chief and the department are doing a good job. If they have a poor ISO rating they are costing the taxpayers millions of $$$ per year.

In the 1990's one dept. in Suffolk county (alonge with another 3,000 or so depts nation wide) refused to submit the minimum paperwork to ISO and got rate as a 10. Which means the insurance industry considers that there is no fire dept. and they will charge up to 80% higher premiums for the next 15 years. On a $400,000 home thats an extra $1,200 per year for that house. In this case if there are more than 84 homes in the district it might have been cheaper to pay for the chief.

NFPA 1710 Section 5.2.4.3 Additional Alarm Assignments.

5.2.4.3.1 The fire department shall have the capability for additional alarm assignments that can provide for additional personnel and additional services, including the application of water to the fire; engagement in search and rescue, forcible entry, ventilation, and preservation of property; accountability for personnel; and provision of support activities for those situations that are beyond the capability of the initial full alarm assignment.

The fire service motto of 100 years of tradition unspoiled by progress is proven incorrect with this section. The fire service has collectively forgotten what the original concept of 1st , 2nd , and 3rd alarm was. When the alarm telegraph box was the only communications system and someone pulled an alarm box, every station was toned out with the box number and would look on the chart on the wall to determine if there company was assigned to respond to that box. Upon arrival at incident, if additional resources were needed the chief would send a firefighter down the street to the next alarm box (or would reset the initial box and retransmit), this firefighter would transmit the “2nd Alarm”, remaining companies would not know if this was a 2nd alarm or a separate fire a block away and would send the same complement as the 1st alarm assignment. If the fire required still more resources the chief would send a firefighter to transmit a 3rd alarm and so on.

This standard does not need to address whether a department’s 1st alarm response is 2 engines and 1 ladder (if it meets the total manpower needs addressed elsewhere) or they send 5 engines and 4 ladders, but I do feel that each subsequent alarm should duplicate the 1st alarm assignment. It makes no sense for a department with only 5 engines and 3 ladders (32 members) to consider sending every thing as being a 3rd alarm when the neighboring departments 3rd alarm is 12 engines, 6 ladders, 1 rescue and 3 chiefs (108 members).

This will likely require that small to medium size departments will require call back and/or mutual aid to respond a 2nd or 3rd alarm, but then they will all know what is coming and it will provide better protection to our members and the public. Lets go back to tradition and make an alarm an alarm.

This has been quite an interesting thread! To answer this question, without even changing district/tax lines, we could improve the response to calls by instituting "closest unit" dispatching. The geographically closest three engines, two ladders, and rescue go to the job along with the chief of the district where the call actually is. It would probably improve the overall response, streamline resource management, and improve interagency operations.

Yes, it would be possible for laws to be rewritten enabling countywide departments - if the support exists and we all know what a big if that is!

We looked at closest unit, the problem with that in our case was, I can get units on the scene faster but no personnel. Currently we get 2Eng, 2Lad, DC with 15-17 ff's anywhere in our dist in about 8 min. in one area if we did Auto aid the time to get same # of rigs is closer to 6 min., but only 12 ff's in another case it would be 5 min but only 10 ff's

Look at how hard it is for the county to rewrite the pay levels for county gov.

Just a reminder Counties can not run fire departments in NYS neither can towns for that matter.

Then how does the town of Mamaroneck (not a district) and the town/village of Scarsdale do it?

NYS Town law allows Municipal depts, fire dists and fire protection dists.

Fact is, this could never happen overnight it would be massive effort that would take time and money to establish. As far as the politics, i think that the study is going to have to show some very serious savings or something equivalent before it would even be considered at the County Government level. I don't know too much about the politics of Andy Spano, but he seems like a reasonable guy. Likewise, any plan would have to explicitly include volunteers. The biggest thing is, right now, many people feel " well, the fires get put out and the FD comes when i call about an odor of gas." Most people don't know an adequate response from an inadequate response, at least thats what I've seen on the EMS side of things. So a massive re-education effort would have to be undertaken in order to point out where the current system fails.

Like i said, glad to see this first step, would love to see my tax dollars go to it, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

Never say never........but it will take a massive effort.

County Government and Spano have nothing to do with it. This is a local issue that will be decided by the communities in the study. If you look on a smaller scale (5 depts) the union looked at this 8-10 years ago and found that to meet NFPA 1710 the 5 seperate FD's needed to hire 332 additional firefighters, but if they merged they needed only 71. Thats 261 fewer firefighters and officers to get the job done. if you figure that 8 years ago the annual cost for 261 ff's would have been about $ 19.5 million, then figure 5 years and we would have spent $100 million. No ones going to give us that kind of $$$. So lets consider there would have been no cost savings, but being short 71 is a whole lot better than being short 261.

BTW 71 short = would have ment being 13 ff's per shift short out of a total of 78 on duty.

The larger the area / population generally the lower the cost, but almost always a lower per capita cost.

Many other cost factors involved, including insurance.

I dont think you can educate the people as to what is adequate until they are in trouble. But if you can show them they can get better service for the same or lower tax $$ then you have a shot.

The sad truth is that most people drive past the fire house in town (any town) and see lots of truck and think "I'm protected" even if the dept does not have a single firefighter. Trucks don't put out fires.

The Vol. have been considered in this study.

Who commissioned the current study ? Is it another Westchester 2000? Will this thing have legs; is it the start of something real? Sorry to keep asking questions it is a great idea. Lower Westchester needs something. I wish more departments would or could be involved but you have to start somewhere. I wonder if Larchmont will get in on it now that they have a career chief. Interesting how no combination depts. with volunteer chiefs seem to be involved. Goes to what most everybody seems to be saying nobody wants to give up their little kingdoms, it is a shame they cannot put that aside and see what would be good for all.

The study was commissioned by the Westchester Career Chiefs Association. It is funded by the NYS Senate and being conducted by the Michaelian Institute for Public Policy and Management at Pace University.

It is not another Westchester 2000. Which was looking to consolidate all levels of government, schools , districts county wide. This is being driven by the career chiefs and only dealing with depts that were interested in participating.

Larchmont is not in the current study, but they and others were told that after the study comes out if other depts want in that it would be possible.