PEMO3

I didn't say it wasn't a good stop...that was one of the troublemakers on here ( I know who he is and I can confirm that he is always up to no good) ...I'm nice remember??
I have no idea what actually happened at the fire. What members are questioning on here is a seemingly repetitive and systemic problem of being unable to provide an adequate and timely response of qualified firefighting personnel.
If it takes numerous departments to deal with even a private dwelling fire every time, why don't those departments just combine?

You're telling us that we should expect the departments involved to maybe "have a lil bit of a hard time getting the engine out" and that we should "try to factor in how many of these people are working, or dedicated to some other issue in their lives" and that we should "give them a breaK"????
This was a private dwelling fire. right? So, if we should be understanding of an initial lack of manpower arriving in a timely manner at this fire, I guess we are going to need to be extremely understanding when there is a public assembly, multiple dwelling, or God forbid, a school fire in this area at 2:30 in the afternoon, and the people potentially trapped inside these aforementioned burning buildings and in need of rescue will need to be particularly understanding people as well I guess...
Why not just take an opportunity such as this to admit that there is a problem and try to fix it? Consolidation, regionalization, perhaps strategic use of career staffing...or, just cross your fingers and hope it all works out, and hope that everyone just "understands"...

What happened yesterday at the Mohegan fire on Young Street?
I heard E258(?) state they did not have enough personnel on scene to make an interior attack.
Is there a problem with manpower? Would it be safe to say that it's time to start automatic dual responses there?
Is this part of that OSHA issue a few months ago citing the District for reducing staffing?
Thanks.

I decided to do a spin off from a lot of the response questions that have been asked about in recent IAs.
Lets start with the question as in the title: When should apparatus and manpower be request to respond?
Every town, city, village, borough, hamlet and district is different from the rest. Some have hydrants every 500 to 1000 feet, while others require a static source with long supply lays or tanker operations to establish a water source. But where does the call originate and begin? AT THE DISPATCH CENTER! If the dispatcher's CAD has everything listed in it (FAST/RIT, to the scene units and cover companies), shouldn't the dispatcher be able to send out the appropriate response depending on the information they receive without waiting for the chief or officer saying "Send me this for this department"? In a perfect world yes, the IC has enough to worry about at the scene and shouldn't be worried about ordering apparatus and manpower but should be concentrating on what is coming as announced by the dispatcher. If there is need for additional equipment, the request should be as simple as "Send me the next alarm" or "Give men an additional engine, truck and Fast team."
Now comes into the problem of where is the apparatus coming from. Could the next due tanker or truck company be coming from a mile away or 10 miles away? Is the request for a certain piece of equipment coming from a staffed or unstaffed station? Will it take time for the proper number of personnel to assemble at that station before getting the rig on the road? There are a lot of considerations when requesting units for another town / district and those need to be considered and in the back of an officer's head while responding and also on the discretion of the dispatcher.
When I was a dispatcher in my former life, my partner had received a call for a working structure fire in a rural section of the town we dispatched. This department has four engines with 1000 gallon water tanks, one 3000 gallon tanker, a truck, two rescues and two mini pumpers out of two stations. Well our CAD was going through an update when this call came in with people still in the structure while on fire (not trapped as updated calls stated everyone was confirmed out). The advantage was my partner and I both knew the area well, knew there was some hydrants in the area but because the CAD was going through an update of information, the closest hydrant wasn't listed. As he dispatched out the call, I continued to check the cad for surrounding hydrants. By the time he was done, we both looked at each other and yelled "TANKERS!", so I took on getting the mutual aid tankers going, ordering one from each of the surrounding towns, placing two more on standby, ordering the RIT / FAST unit and getting the list for cover companies ready. We called out the water holes as one of the line officers stated that the closest hydrant was 3/4 of a mile away (this became our replenishing site). In this instance the operation worked, we had 9000 gallons of water on wheel s coming into the scene and the three M/A tankers were there within 5 to 10 minutes of the initial dispatch. And if we didn't get that water out on on the road well the structure could have been a total loss and only the water on scene was used (good knock down and overhaul).
Where I work, we do operate under a county mutual aid system. When an alarm goes out a department sends their first alarm response as outlined in the dispatch center's CAD (they call this a Box Alarm). When a working fire is declared the response is upgrades to a "Box Plus" bringing in those necessary additional units (FAST, tankers, air supply, extra ambulance, ect.) The upgrade happens depending on either by the first arriving unit or when taking multiple calls or even from another unit outside of the fire department (ie police or EMS). Everything is there and usually there is a one pull system, the FAST team comes from one of two career departments, certain departments have towers, aerials or quints, ect. Its all listed and the county chief meet regularly to update their information and manpower with each other. Some departments can handle a single or two alarms at one fire when others like mine automatically call in mutual aid right off the bat to fill the assignment.
So let's get back to the question at hand, when should a request be made for additional apparatus and manpower? Should it be right off the bat without hesitation doing the old "When in doubt, send it out" or having units "post" at their stations?
Should you consider going to a second alarm upon seeing fire conditions, should you think about calling for the third alarms assignment and put them in staging?
When should have cover companies com in and should they be the next up for the next alarm assignment at the original scene or should you "double up" so you have the right units "in town" so you can call some to the scene while others cover the town / district?
What should you have in your dispatch center's CAD so you as an IC don't have to think where to get a certain piece of equipment upon a working fire or other emergency of great potential?
Isn't better to have your M/A units on the road at the initial dispatch if they are part of the initial assignment?
If you have initial manpower issues, should you consider skipping a district / department or adding a unit from next one over who has a staffed rig and can be there quickly to the initial assignment?
Should you consider the "One Pull" system of apparatus and manpower response to make sure you have proper coverage?
I can go on and list so many more questions but let's make this a progressive discussion and see what we can learn from this.

While I am all for helping out other nations in a crisis, and we should, hundreds of millions have been spent, concerts have been held, charities have been created, corporations have donated tens of millions of dollars and goods, the networks and various television shows have just about created 24/7 coverage and yet we have a national crisis occurring under our noses that is all but being ignored. Families are becoming just as homeless here in the US as homes are foreclosed and jobs are lost by the hundreds daily. Children are going to bed at night hungry and grown men are seeing a jump from a bridge as the only solution to their problems. Maybe we do not have people trapped under bricks and concrete but they are trapped under mountains of debt and hopelessness. When I was growing up there was a saying that charity begins at home. Lets face is every time the US steps up to the plate and take resources that could best be used for its own population it is always ridiculed for its actions. Maybe it is time that priorities were reassessed.

While I am all for helping out other nations in a crisis, and we should, hundreds of millions have been spent, concerts have been held, charities have been created, corporations have donated tens of millions of dollars and goods, the networks and various television shows have just about created 24/7 coverage and yet we have a national crisis occurring under our noses that is all but being ignored. Families are becoming just as homeless here in the US as homes are foreclosed and jobs are lost by the hundreds daily. Children are going to bed at night hungry and grown men are seeing a jump from a bridge as the only solution to their problems. Maybe we do not have people trapped under bricks and concrete but they are trapped under mountains of debt and hopelessness. When I was growing up there was a saying that charity begins at home. Lets face is every time the US steps up to the plate and take resources that could best be used for its own population it is always ridiculed for its actions. Maybe it is time that priorities were reassessed.

I think the issue is that the young man did what he felt was ok and non-threatening and the flight crew reacted in a manner that they felt they needed to for the safety of the passengers in their charge. I don't think the issue here is religious indifference or callousness or the failure to ask a question. What we need to remember is hind sight is always 20/20. One could consider that the flight attendant may have felt that asking the young man a question about the perceived "threatening device" might be considered confrontational and a situation that they wanted to avoid at 30,000 +/- feet. I think the thread brought up some good points that better education might have helped but equally added that to expect every flight attendant to be a Jeopardy champion is a little unrealistic. Issues will always arise and people will always be inconvenienced but if it is for the safety of the public at large that must take priority. It is through these inconveniences that education develops and protocols to avoid reoccurrences evolve. "Out of every interaction in life we should learn something new for when we cease to learn we cease to evolve."

I have to disagree with a lot of the comments supporting the youths actions and condemning the airline. I worked in NYC my entire career including Borough Park, Brooklyn, one of the most Orthodox areas in the city and never came across this practice. This aside remember the terrorist chant their prayers also prior to "self sacrifice" so the fact that the boy was "praying" is not a sole comforting factor for the flight crew. For this crew could have mistaken this to be his preparation for a terrorist act against the plane. It was said he was traveling with his "sister". How did they know that for a fact, could it have been an accomplice, remember there is a female terrorist on trial as we speak. While we are all entitled to our personal opinions remember when we second guess people for acting it will only cause inaction which will lead to larger problems. While people got delayed and a young man got an education into the fact that the entire world is not as familiar with his religion as he thought, in the end the all arrived at their final destination safely and yes now the world has been educated and also now knows what a phylactery or Hebrew tefillin is.

I have to disagree with a lot of the comments supporting the youths actions and condemning the airline. I worked in NYC my entire career including Borough Park, Brooklyn, one of the most Orthodox areas in the city and never came across this practice. This aside remember the terrorist chant their prayers also prior to "self sacrifice" so the fact that the boy was "praying" is not a sole comforting factor for the flight crew. For this crew could have mistaken this to be his preparation for a terrorist act against the plane. It was said he was traveling with his "sister". How did they know that for a fact, could it have been an accomplice, remember there is a female terrorist on trial as we speak. While we are all entitled to our personal opinions remember when we second guess people for acting it will only cause inaction which will lead to larger problems. While people got delayed and a young man got an education into the fact that the entire world is not as familiar with his religion as he thought, in the end the all arrived at their final destination safely and yes now the world has been educated and also now knows what a phylactery or Hebrew tefillin is.

I have to disagree with a lot of the comments supporting the youths actions and condemning the airline. I worked in NYC my entire career including Borough Park, Brooklyn, one of the most Orthodox areas in the city and never came across this practice. This aside remember the terrorist chant their prayers also prior to "self sacrifice" so the fact that the boy was "praying" is not a sole comforting factor for the flight crew. For this crew could have mistaken this to be his preparation for a terrorist act against the plane. It was said he was traveling with his "sister". How did they know that for a fact, could it have been an accomplice, remember there is a female terrorist on trial as we speak. While we are all entitled to our personal opinions remember when we second guess people for acting it will only cause inaction which will lead to larger problems. While people got delayed and a young man got an education into the fact that the entire world is not as familiar with his religion as he thought, in the end the all arrived at their final destination safely and yes now the world has been educated and also now knows what a phylactery or Hebrew tefillin is.

From this morning's FEMA National Situation Report
FEMA Actions
FEMA NRCC is activated to Level II, 24/7 operations
Region IV is at Level III Partial Activation due to Haiti evacuees possibly being evacuated to Florida.
National IMAT West activated and awaiting transportation; scheduled to depart Sacramento at 10:00 a.m. PST in USCG C-130
Thomasville, GA MERS activated and moving rolling stock to Homestead; currently in Orlando
Frederick, MD MERS activated in support of US&R operations and is awaiting airlift transportation
Maynard, MA MERS activated and awaiting airlift transportation
US&R VA-1 team (Fairfax County) in Haiti: base camp established, initial survey conducted, and priority targets identified
US&R CA-2 team (Los Angeles County) to arrive at 4:30 a.m. EST, January 14, in Haiti
US&R FL-1 and FL-2 (Miami-Dade) teams deploying from Homestead, FL on January 14
US&R VA-2, OH-1, CA-5, CA-7, NY-1, and TX-1 task forces have been activated and are awaiting transportation to Port-au-Prince; tentatively scheduled to arrive at Port-au-Prince today
A US&R Incident Support Team is preparing to deploy to support US&R operations in Haiti
Additional US&R teams on stand-by
Logistics provided Frederick MERS with meals and water for delivery to Haiti; additional meals and water, along with tarps, blankets, cots, and comfort kits have been ordered and will be delivered to Homestead AFB for pre-staging
Four External Affairs staff to depart today to Haiti to support USAID; one External Affairs staff to deploy to Washington, D.C.
Department of Health and Human Services
Four DMAT (NJ-1 is one of them) and four DMORT teams have been activated and are awaiting transportation to Haiti
Four additional DMAT and four additional DMORT teams are on stand-by
U.S. Coast Guard
Two cutters already in Haiti; two additional cutters are en route
Two fixed wing C-130 aircraft are performing over-flight assessments
Two C-130s with 140 passenger capacity to arrive January 14; first evacuation flight of UN personnel scheduled to depart for Santa Domingo at 10:00 a.m. EST; two additional evacuations may be possible later that day
U.S. Navy
Hospital ship USNS Comfort scheduled to arrive by January 22 to provide mobile hospital
Red Cross
Five person team being deployed to manage distribution
All relief supplies stored in Panama have been made available
$1 million in funds available for immediate response

I've been watching this topic but I don't have the energy to post on it really...the whole thing brings back too many bad memories for me. I will say that I agree with most of the posts made here, surprisingly...I will reserve the right to jump in later if I feel the need to rebut any misinformation but happily, I haven't seen any really nonsensical posts on this topic yet.
I do want to reply to your post though. Bob...Engine work is definitely not my forte, however, I believe there is a difference between "NYC CORP" thread and "NYC" thread....Yonkers has, I believe "NYC CORP" thread, which I believe, is close to, but not exactly, "NYC" (FDNY) thread...if you jam it on, it usually will make up but no guarantees...we do have adaptors and we've had them forever but I have no idea about other Westchester departments. Is this the FDNY threads which you refer to 40% of Westchester having because I believe there is actually a slight difference? Of course, the other thread we have not mentioned is National Standard which most of Westchester has so would need adaptors for NYC, Yonkers, and many other Westchester departments that are not on National Standard.
Also, FDNY hydrants open and close "backwards" from ours...ours open counterclockwise, FDNY opens clockwise
The high security hydrant wrench you speak of...is that the magna lock?? Or a speaker from a boom box???
Correct me if I am wrong on any of the above...until I became a Chief, I could really care less about this hose and water stuff and I didn't pay much attention for many years, but suddenly it became a lot more important...