Driver Qualifications.

[firemoose827 324]

Hey all. Just curious as to what regs your depts have for driver qualifications. We are having problems and are trying to change some things. Our old SOP's say that in order to be an officer you need to be qualified on ALL trucks. We have a lot of standard transmissions with high/low ranges like our 2,500 gall tanker, and 2 of our engines, which makes it difficult for those members who do not drive standard.

In order to qualify you need drive time with a line officer, and than final approval by a chief officer, as well as EVOC and Pump Ops, (Ladder Ops for our tower.) We are now thinking of having all Lt's be qualified on our rescue and brush unit, than during the year become qualified on the tanker and engine one (our supply truck with 2,000' of five inch.) Than as you progress to Capt and up you would need additional trucks each year in office, if you do not qualify on those trucks you would be ineligible to run next election until you became qualified.

Any opinions or advice on this? I am interested in becoming officer this year and want to change this for the better of all involved, so some of the more qualified firefighters have a shot at being officer. We have a lot of good interior ff's with extensive knowledge that want officer, but do not want to drive trucks. They will work the pumps or drive if needed, but they would rather pack-up and get dirty. I know that there are many jobs to be done and they are all important, but we still have those stubborn members you cant get through to. :angry:

Anyways, whats your SOP's like? Anything different we could add? Stay safe all and pray for an early spring!

Jonesy

[ex-commish 490]

Hey all.  Just curious as to what regs your depts have for driver qualifications.  We are having problems and are trying to change some things.  Our old SOP's say that in order to be an officer you need to be qualified on ALL trucks.  We have a lot of standard transmissions with high/low ranges like our 2,500 gall tanker, and 2 of our engines, which makes it difficult for those members who do not drive standard.

In order to qualify you need drive time with a line officer, and than final approval by a chief officer, as well as EVOC and Pump Ops, (Ladder Ops for our tower.)  We are now thinking of having all Lt's be qualified on our rescue and brush unit, than during the year become qualified on the tanker and engine one (our supply truck with 2,000' of five inch.)  Than as you progress to Capt and up you would need additional trucks each year in office, if you do not qualify on those trucks you would be ineligible to run next election until you became qualified.

Any opinions or advice on this?  I am interested in becoming officer this year and want to change this for the better of all involved, so some of the more qualified firefighters have a shot at being officer.  We have a lot of good interior ff's with extensive knowledge that want officer, but do not want to drive trucks.  They will work the pumps or drive if needed, but they would rather pack-up and get dirty.  I know that there are many jobs to be done and they are all important, but we still have those stubborn members you cant get through to. :angry:

Anyways, whats your SOP's like?  Anything different we could add?  Stay safe all and pray for an early spring!

Jonesy

←

Sorry, I hit the add reply button before I was going to address your post. First, what you have stated is why our selection for officer process needs serious reform

My first question is, how would being a driver make a good officer? I would rather a well trained person who has taken officer training classes, who is calm, experienced, and has decent knowledge of building construction and fire behavior lead me into a fire than someone who can drive. Like you said you have competent people who are not drivers and based on your rules they can not become officers so there is a chance your department may be shortchanging itself with that rule. I have known many good officers who are not drivers and know many good drivers who do not want to be officers. Sometime back I was researching what officers should have and I looked at the FLIP school career officers have to take and no where was any reference made to driving rather tactics, fire behavior and educational methodoogy at a minumum.

Now as far as driver qualifications...........we require defensive driving, evoc, pump and ariel ops. Each one of our rigs has a chief driver who is responsible for testing you which involves driving, pumping, aerial ops, and vehicle maintenance as well as street knowledge. EVOC is a good course because besides driving it addresses laws regarding emergency apparatus and reponse as well as vehicle maintanance which is often overlooked with in-house programs.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[JohnnyOV 2]

For driver engineer status in volusia county FL I need to be 18 yo and have these classes done

Basic pump ops

bloodborne Pathogens

CPR

Emergency Response to Terrorism

EVOC

First Responder with Oxygen Therapy

ICS-100

ICS-200

Initial Response to Haz-Mat Incident

IS-700

Report Writing

arrgh...they only offer most of the classes 1 a year too...when im home on break :angry:

Edited March 15, 2006 by EMSJunkie712

[IzzyEng4 427]

21 years of age to operate any fire department apparatus

Must take the "Q" restriction drivers test (Q is the designation for emergency apparatus on CT drivers licences)

Not required yet but it is strongly suggested to take the DOT drivers course set up by the CT fire commission.

Must be fully trained in pump / aerial operations prior to being cleared to drive the apparatus.

Not required but drivers are encouraged to take the NFPA pump operators or aerial operators course.

There have been special cases where a member has a CDL, "Q" or military licence that equals the driving requirement set by CTDOT where we start training while the member is on probation. This is a very rare occurance.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Are there any departments/states that require CDL Licensing?

Even though NY DOES NOT require it, I believe it is a requirement that can only help us especially in NY. CDL licenscing I believe is required when operating any vehicle over 26,000lbs or 13 tons roughly. Driving these trucks is not like driving your friends pick up or a moving van. I feel that NYS should require the CDL and (before everyone gets mad at me just wait) should allow firefighters to obtain the license for free w/o paying the required fees. I have my CDL and it has definately helped me in my experience of driving these rigs. If you think I am wrong then go out on a truck with someone who is first being trained on these apparatus and tell me that you dont get a good scare especially when making turns with a truck, how many times does this person have to clip curbs, poles, and rub the tires before we decide randomly that he/she is qualified to drive a 40 ton piece of apparatus. Also CDL drivers are required by LAW to complete a pre trip inspecition report, I think in the future we might be subject to this too, even though we basically do already, well most of us hopefully, but we might be held to the same standards as others soon.

Edited March 16, 2006 by JustSomeGuy

[IzzyEng4 427]

Are there any departments/states that require CDL Licensing? 

←

CT was a state that issued CDL's to operate fire trucks up until 1996 or so then they change it to a "q" restriction, which I have. When I started to train they were issuing CDL's. There was a push for a separate licence for emergency apparatus only so members didn't have to go through the whole CDL testing. DMV came up with the "Q" restriction whihc states an operator can drive a 26,000 pound plus truck that is exempt from CDL program. Of course the popular and somewhat untrue rumor was that many CDL quilifiers were using fire trucks to get thier licence.

The "q" restriction still requires the operator to be 21 years or older to operate a vehicle. The test consists of the vehicle pre trip, testing the air brakes, static corse (rodeo) test and the street driving test. There is no written part to getting a "q".

[ex-commish 490]

Are there any departments/states that require CDL Licensing? 

Even though NY DOES NOT require it, I believe it is a requirement that can only help us especially in NY.  CDL licenscing I believe is required when operating any vehicle over 26,000lbs or 13 tons roughly.  Driving these trucks is not like driving your friends pick up or a moving van.  I feel that NYS should require the CDL and (before everyone gets mad at me just wait) should allow firefighters to obtain the license for free w/o paying the required fees.  I have my CDL and it has definately helped me in my experience of driving these rigs.  If you think I am wrong then go out on a truck with someone who is first being trained on these apparatus and tell me that you dont get a good scare especially when making turns with a truck, how many times does this person have to clip curbs, poles, and rub the tires before we decide randomly that he/she is qualified to drive a 40 ton piece of apparatus.  Also CDL drivers are required by LAW to complete a pre trip inspecition report, I think in the future we might be subject to this too, even though we basically do already, well most of us hopefully, but we might be held to the same standards as others soon.

←

First, no one should be mad at you for expressing your opinion. There is some validity in what you are saying. I remember years ago the state wanted to make it mandatory for us to obtain CDL's and I believe the reisitance was due to the cost factor and it was a time where unfunded mandates were off the hook.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

[FD7807 59]

Tarrytown does not require a CDL. You need a valid NYS License with 10 hours minimum or driving time and 10 hours minimum Ladder and/or pump time in addition to passing a road test given by your company's chief driver. Upon that you must driver at least once every six months to a drill or an alarm to stay qualified.

[firemoose827 324]

Sorry, I hit the add reply button before I was going to address your post. First, what you have stated is why our selection for officer process needs serious reform

My first question is, how would being a driver make a good officer? I would rather a well trained person who has taken officer training classes, who is calm, experienced, and has decent knowledge of building construction and fire behavior lead me into a fire than someone who can drive. Like you said you have competent people who are not drivers and based on your rules they can not become officers so there is a chance your department may be shortchanging itself with that rule. I have known many good officers who are not drivers and know many good drivers who do not want to be officers. Sometime back I was researching what officers should have and I looked at the FLIP school career officers have to take and no where was any reference made to driving rather tactics, fire behavior and educational methodoogy at a minumum.

Now as far as driver qualifications...........we require defensive driving, evoc, pump and ariel ops. Each one of our rigs has a chief driver who is responsible for testing you which involves driving, pumping, aerial ops, and vehicle maintenance as well as street knowledge. EVOC is a good course because besides driving it addresses laws regarding emergency apparatus and reponse as well as vehicle maintanance which is often overlooked with in-house programs.

Andy Mancusi

Chief

Hawthorne FD

←

I know, Chief, I feel the same way. They are saying that they want their officers to be qualified on the trucks so that when a problem arises on an emergency the officer can correct it. I agree with that to a degree, but I also say that if your driver cant fix the problem, what are they doing driving the truck?

Thanks Chief.

Jonesy.

[AFD_32_4 0]

Has anyone even given thought that an officer, riding on a piece of apperatus that is involved in an mishap/accident, is as almost as liable as the driver!

I understand that there are many people that wish to be an officer, although don't wish to drive. They may have the crudentials to be an officer by classroom training and experience, but will or should have no authority to authorize or certify an individual as a driver.

I think that keeping your by-laws the way they are, meaning they need to be a driver, also makes them more aware of what is required as a driver, which is not just a matter of getting a rig to the scene, but what that driver is required to do. This should be important to an officer, ie: water scorce, handlines, supply lines, pump and tank capacity.

Being an officer also requires that person to know how much water he may need by the size of the fire he is fighting. Without knowing what his equipment is capable of, keeps him from doing his job adaquatly. He may find himself relying on a new driver that has not enough experience to know what is expected at a large incident.

The officer being experienced with his equipment can instruct, if needed, any driver, where he feels the rig should be positioned, what water flow he is looking for as well as what his water scorce can supply to him.

I relize that there are more and more people that want to be an officer but not have to follow the procedures that have been set in place for many of years, but I do feel that these procedures are in place for many reasons. In a career department there is a chauffer, and all he does is drive and supply water. An officer might be able to rely on him, far more then in a volunteer department.

It also gives someone a goal, to do more training to accomplish there desire to move up the chain.

[firemoose827 324]

Has anyone even given thought that an officer, riding on a piece of apperatus that is involved in an mishap/accident, is as almost as liable as the driver!

  I understand that there are many people that wish to be an officer, although don't wish to drive.  They may have the crudentials to be an officer by classroom training and experience, but will or should have no authority to authorize or certify an individual as a driver.

  I think that keeping your by-laws the way they are, meaning they need to be a driver, also makes them more aware of what is required as a driver, which is not just a matter of getting a rig to the scene, but what that driver is required to do. This should be important to an officer,  ie: water scorce, handlines, supply lines, pump and tank capacity. 

Being an officer also requires that person to know how much water he may need by the size of the fire he is fighting.  Without knowing what his equipment is capable of, keeps him from doing his job adaquatly.  He may find himself relying on a new driver that has not enough experience to know what is expected at a large incident.

  The officer being experienced with his equipment can instruct, if needed, any driver, where he feels the rig should be positioned, what water flow he is looking for as well as what his water scorce can supply to him.

 

  I relize that there are more and more people that want to be an officer but not have to follow the procedures that have been set in place for many of years, but I do feel that these procedures are in place for many reasons.  In a career department there is a chauffer, and all he does is drive and supply water.  An officer might be able to rely on him, far more then in a volunteer department.

  It also gives someone a goal, to do more training to accomplish there desire to move up the chain.

←

I couldnt agree with you more. In most of todays training, like ff I & II they go over a lot of those things like truck placement, fire flows, hose selection and use, water supply, ect...ect...

I also agree that officers should be qualified drivers...I should have clarified it a bit more...

Lieutenants in our dept are in charge of interior attack crews, hose selection and placement, ect. For this position, is it necessary that THEY be qualified on ALL equipment? Captains and Chiefs yes, they should, but Lt's? Being extremely knowledgeable and experienced in firefighting tactics and equipment, fire behavior, fire flows and formulas ect I feel should be enough for the Lt. position. Than once you are Lt you have the year in office to get qualified in other trucks to prepare for Capt and Chief Officer.

I hope that clears that up a bit, thanks for your input and opinions. Stay safe.

Jonesy

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

sounds like you may some driving lessons in big rigs. how about a twin stick lo hole main box hooked up to a 237 turbo mack with a set of 44s in the rear, or a 671 det. with a 643 allison. or a five speed main box GMC with a vacuam 2 speed rear. any time you like I can teach you be a better officer/driver dad

[firemoose827 324]

Hey all, something to add to the discussion ( and my frustration! )

We had a call yesterday for a stove fire in a 3 story apt house, ordinary construction. I get to station to see the engine leaving, could not see crew. I jump on rescue truck with three others and we leave. As we are pulling on to main street we see the engine, who left a good 1-2 minutes before us, down the road pulled over. We PASS the engine to see the "Driver", no, the "Qualified Driver" fighting the gears and trying to get it to move. I look at the other guy and say that we had better pack up and grab an extinguisher 'cause were gonna get there first with no engine. He smirks and we get ready.

We get there and go in with the extinguisher and tools to find an overheated electric stove with some food down below the burner. Nothing at all, but had it of been a worker, we would have lost the whole apt house.

The engine finaly arrives with a blushing driver, who as far as I knew was not qualified on that truck and was the assist chiefs son, and the assist chief runs over to the truck to find out who it was, mind you its the drivers father, only to see his son and he laughs about it?! "Oh, he just had trouble with fourth gear, thats all, lets head back."

I'm wondering what would have happened if it were someone else driving, or if the building had burned bad and we had no water for 3-4 minutes more because of this "Driver".

Elections are this month...things are going to change.

Jonesy