Whats wrong with this?

[tbendick 27]

Ok. Here is a new set of photos from my travels.

Photo 1:

Notes: Parked next to the fire building at a 2nd Alarm fire in the basement.

Photo 2:

Notes: Parked in front of the fire building at a small 10-75. First Due Engine and only engine on scene.

So lets take a look and see what is wrong. I would like to discuss the SOP's the most departments have. These photos are not to second guess the units involved but to make us think and consider our options.

[WAS967 97]

Err....I'm not even firefighter trained, but shouldn't those engines at least be tapped into the hydrants?

[TRUCK6018 50]

I was also thinking about the hydrant. I was hoping there's another hydrant just up the street they layed in on.

Another observation is only one line streched. Even if it's a small fire, a back-up line should be in place.

[RES20CUE 40]

Pic 1-

If 38 Engine is arriving on the 2nd Alarm, chances are that the apparatus was not needed, and it is there for manpower and equipment. I'm not sure how FDNY operates as far as it's MPO's go, but in most places, if the Engine Company needs to go to work, and the apparatus is not being utilized, the MPO is part of that crew and the rig is "abandoned".

If this is the case, the Engine should have parked out of the way, and not blocking that hydrant, in case something went wrong and that hydrant is needed.

Also what about that Battalion car? If it was just driving thru, that's fine, but if it's parked there, now that entire side of the street is blocked for additional units entering, or the possiblity of EMS exiting with an injured brother!

Apparatus placement is always key on the fireground.

Pic 2- I guess they felt that the tank water was sufficient. I don't know, but I was always taught in a hydrant area, the booster tank is a start until you hook up the hydrant, then ensure your tank stays full in case something goes bad! Always think about Murphy! Murphy arrives on most scenes before we do!

[Guest rreimund]

Hmm..

Some good stuff there..

here's my take besides what's already been mentioned (or in addition to)

1.) Is that a ladder back there? Should the ladder be needed, do we want an engine parked underneath? Does the engine get in the way of the ladder positioning properly? (it may not, but given I don't know the dimensions of the building in question, not how far back it is from the curb, or which direction it's in (i.e. closer or farther from the ladder truck)

2.) Basically was going to say the same thing as has already been said. But do want to speculate/ play devil's advocate. Is it possible that we're looking at a picture at the tailend of an operation? Looks like we've got some FFs without full PPE, and may just be looking on as things get torn down. They MAY have already put away the line to the hydrant. Though I find it unlikely that they'd leave the attack line out. That said, the line doesn't appear to be charged (note the bend where the hose goes over the curb....)

But assuming they're still working it, and they never hooked up to the hydrant.. that's baaad.. mmmkay

[CHIEFPHIL 90]

Actually there could be nothing wrong in each of the pictures.

1] It is a 2nd alarm, what due was this engine co ? Like a previous writer stated, usually the second alarm co's are used for manpower more then the rig. Could it be the fast engine ? It is at the hydrant for possible future use, could the MPO be doing a task near the rig ?

2] Yes this poses an different view since a crosslay has been deployed. Could the hydrant be out of service and a second engine secured a supply ? Could the fire have been small enough that the tank water did the job ? What is the tank water size ? Could this have been a one /two man engine co where they stretch a line and a second engine secures the supply ? Could this engine not have been used for suppression and used to wet down debris outside the building ?

Many , many different views and thoughts can be taken from these pictures. Think about how many rigs in your dept dont hook a hydrant at a fire or how many times havs the tank water done the job. in my dept, the first due does not secure a water supply, that is the job of the second due. We also carry 1000 gallon tanks, so sometimes we are done with a room and contents before the supply line is in service.

Good thought provoking question .

[tbendick 27]

Ok here is my thing that I was looking at.

Photo 1: Engine seemed to be parked in a good place. Not being hooked up to the hydrant, leaves the option to move the rig in a hurry. However the thing I noticed was that the Hydrant was never tested. If Murphy laws goes into effect and we need to start a line of this rig, I think we should know as soon as possible that this Hydrant is in good working order. Not saying we need to hook up, beacause maybe we want to move the rig closer to use a deck gun or move it out of a collapse zone, etc.

Photo 2: Fire was small, however if you are starting line for a building fire then I think you should be at least checking that hydrant if not connecting to the hydrant. Once again Murphy laws truck opens up and finds more fire. Then hydrant turns out to be dead.

Like said before there could be nothing wrong with the photos. Just wanted to make people think, look and evaluate. I know the Engine Company I am on, we check hydrants on almost all runs. This helps to test them so that next time when it is a fire we might find the bad hydrant before it's too late.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Good points so far, and wanted to add my ideas as well. I am not familiar with any departments in the pics policies so this is based on my experiences.

1. If this engine was on the 2nd alarm assignment, more then likely a water supply has been established. Kudo's for not tapping into a hydrant that may already be on the same main being used. Too many times I've seen multiple engines grabbing hydrants, all on the same main/system and it isn't efficient. Again, depending on the basement fire, the 2nd alarm as someone stated could be for additional resources on-scene. As far as placement, again we can't be sure. Maybe the are intentionally blocking off any vehicle access to the area for safety. We all know how people drive, multiply that by 10 with what NYC agencies deal with.

2. In this one, perhaps the truck company put the fire out with a water can and then the engine finally got their line stretched.....lol...ok all kidding aside. Pictures do only offer limited info despite being worth a 1000 words. If this was early on I doubt I'd see so much personnel lolly gagging (how's that for a marine corps word) around. I also see a power cord running off the truck, so perhaps ventilation is in progress which could further hint that this incident is winding down. Brings up another point to still be ready for anything, but if you are doing good and efficient constant size up you shouldn't be surprised.