Brewster Structure Fire 08/05/07

[EJS1810 7]

Based on the Dispatch, the Chief requested 2 Engines and 5 Tankers (2 Brewster, 3 M/A) while enroute to the scene

[Guest firediver55]

Ok good, that settles the water supply issue then. Thanks and by the way NY the next promotional test you take answer the firematic question that you don't have to attack from the unburned side and you'll be 1 pt. behind everytime. It has also been proven that ALL fire eventually goes out! Goodnight everyone.

Edited August 9, 2007 by firediver55

[Guest]

I have a few questions; the first being was there any other operations going on inside when the 2-1/2" was pulled? Search maybe? It comes down to protecting the nearest exposure in my eyes in this case it's the occupants and firefighters along with rest of the house, and whose to say they couldn't have pulled the 2-1/2" or a 2" line into the house? I'm not sure but it seemed like they had a good turn out of members and had the manpower. The fire was self vented and "Happy" I also am curious as to what lines are available to the crews on the first due engine? I don't know how they have it set up but I would like to know. I thought they may have used to much water from outside they could have shut down the nozzle a little sooner to lessen the chance of "pushing the fire". I don't really understand why people are getting worked up about this post it's just "table talk" about a fire. I'm sure there are BFD members doing the same thing and did after the fire. I'm also confused about the Firefighter in the window I know he said he had an Air Problem? Has that been discussed, was it equipment malfunction? A Close Call? I would think if you have an air problem you let the I.C. know and leave ASAP. What type of SCBA's does BFD use I’m guessing SCOTT? From everything else I saw and read on here it was a good stop and a job well done on a tough day.

[Guest]

It was reported on the initial call to the 911 Center that all occupants were out of the building. It was reported on the second and third and fourth calls as well. There were no occupants. There was no door leading from the house directly into the garage. Should the first line gone in the front door? Ask the CHIEF that was on scene. Should two lines have been pulled on arrival? The first chief was in scene in one minute. The first engine arrived 5 minutes after initial dispatch, the first tanker 7 minutes after initial dispatch. The chiefs were on scene for 4 minutes before any apparatus arrived. I think they assessed the situation. Do you go inside with a hoseline and just stand there until someone else pulls another line off the engine to put the fire out? Poke holes in the ceiling and put the extension out but let the main source of fire still burn? That's why they have forums to discuss things like this.

What is not shown in the pictures - TAKEN BY FRANK BECERRA OF THE JOURNAL NEWS (not a BFD member setting up a camera) - is there was a line stretched to the rear of the residence as well to protect exposures. Yes - the nearest exposure is the residence itself...

Just an added note - there were acetylene cylinders in the garage as well as a vehicle. Does anyone know what else was in there? The homeowner probably doesn't even know.

[Guest partyrock]

What worries me most here is the rigid conformity to the book by many people here. The book is a great place to start so that everyone is on the same page, but you need to be flexible. How about size-up. The garage is most likely an addition after original construction. That means there is a good chance you (A) have no access from the structure and ( have an exterior type wall between the fire and the structure. While waiting for an interior line to be stretched I would absolutely go for a quick exterior attack. Reported people trapped or unknown status of the occupant then you have to go inside with the first line.

[Remember585 815]

I was looking at this picture thinking two things. First, I think Aunt Janet's house is behind there and second, with the chimney where it is I am leaning towards the garage being an add-on. With that assumption, I would think there is no door between the house and garage, but we all know there is no such thing as a "given." AND we all know what happens when we assume. Ask the occupants since they are there and that answers our question.

Using the 2 1/2" and making a blitz attack off the first due will knock down a good amount of fire. If I am not mistaken I think Brewster has mostly 1000 gallon tanks on their Engines.... good enough for 4-5 minutes of water. If that Tanker was 2-3 minutes behind, constant water flow shouldn't have been a problem. Putting the fire out is the main objective, right? If our goals are Life Safety then Property Conservation, and the IC has confirmed there are no people inside, why jam the guys up going in the front door looking for a way into the garage if it doesn't exist? Sure guys need to get in there, and a line should be stretched, but it doesn't have to be our first line. PLUS - if manpower isn't there to meet the two in/ two out, and everyone is out of the house....we technically can't put people inside, right? (Not that it has ever occurred....)

I think Party is dead-on where people rely too heavily on "the book." If we can't think out of the box we are screwed. No fire is a routine fire, and if we think that they are then injuries and fatalities could become "routine." Personally, I don't want to see that happen.

Nice stop, glad Daday is OK.

[Guest]

It was reported on the initial call to the 911 Center that all occupants were out of the building. It was reported on the second and third and fourth calls as well.

So What.

The only time you should believe that there may not be anyone in the building is after primary and secondary searches have been completed. I agree with Debart on this one. The first line goes in the front door to protect any possible occupants.

[ny10570 745]

No one is saying forget the search, but its about priorities and calculated risks. You get on scene and the homeowner reports people unaccounted for is your first crew on scene going to stretch a line or start the search?

[grumpyff 1,159]

So What.

The only time you should believe that there may not be anyone in the building is after primary and secondary searches have been completed. I agree with Debart on this one. The first line goes in the front door to protect any possible occupants.

Thats great...take the first line in the door for what...are you going to breach a hole into the garage to put it out, or are you going to wait until the fire burns to where you are. Chiefs are onscene ..I'm sure that is the first thing they asked/checked...EVERYONE IS OUT OF THE HOUSE. From the original DIE HARD.."Take your well laid plans, and lay them up your well laid A$$" I'm sure if they were occupants in the house trapped, then yes the first line 1 3/4 or the 2 1/2 would have been in the front door. BUT since there was no access to the garage from the house, and everyone was out the BLITZ attack was the best/only option.

Edited August 11, 2007 by grumpyff

[Guest]

Grumpy, you missed my point.

I would not take anyones word that everyone is out of the house, not even if it were Bruce Willis himself.

This is why my first orders would be to stretch a line through the front door. The next crew available would immediately do a fast primary search. The garage is fully involved, there is little chance that there are any survivors there. But, I do feel better after knowing that one of my crew has searched the dwelling for any possible occupants. Anyone who takes a civilians word for that is a fool.

RECEO my friend.

Just so you know I am not just talking out my well laid A$$ here, I have been an incident commander first due at a structure fire in a PD in which the residents told me, as first FD person onscene, that all the occupants were out. Wanna take a guess what my first orders were????

[Guest DADAY]

This was a garage that was SEMI-attached the only access door was on the 3 side of the house, meaning to get to the fire the line would have gone thru the front door and out the back doot then to the garage door.

Now, I ask the question, do you still enter the front door?, Or would you attack from a line streched around the back?

I understand what "the book" says, but what would others do?

Edited August 11, 2007 by DADAY

[grumpyff 1,159]

Apparently from the majority of the answers here, it is to ignore the IC who has done a quick size up of the structure and of its occupants, and still stretch as line through the front door to protect life (not present except the crew being placed there). Also from the tone of some of the responses here, a blitz attack is a bad thing, why put water on the fire from outside, and prevent exposure to the first in crew to all the hazards in the garage, such as the car, the acetylene tanks, and whatever other flammable items stored in a garage, because the book says not to. IF there was a door present, and the IC said there were occupants still in the structure, the YES the line would go in the front door. Apparently most people here are failing another common test taking question, READING COMPREHENSION!!!!!!!. The first line to the garage IN THIS CASE is the correct action. Yes another crew should do a more extensive/detailed search of the structure (You can never search too much). YES a second line should go in the front door to protect the search crew and prevent extension. Otherwise what is the point of the IC doing a walk around size up if it is going to be ingored because the book says to do something else..

RANT OVER>

Edited August 11, 2007 by grumpyff

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Grumpy I think you might be missing the point here. The garage in question was well involved and is more than likely a total loss. It will be torn down and rebuilt. The idea of the first line going to the interior is to prevent any extension into the dwelling area. This action will do several things, it will prevent fire spread into the house, and also facilitate a primary search. It requires a disciplined nozzle team because they may have to stand fast in the house and allow the 2nd due line to operate on the garage from the exterior. Although it may be difficult to pass up the opportunity to blitz the garage initially you are doing the homeowners a better service to prevent fire spread into their residence. As stated earlier, if there is a means to operate from the house into the garage then by all means have at it. If in the process of blitzing the garage you push fire into the dwelling and is severly damaged and the searchs are hampered then where do your well laid plans go. These are called strategy and tactics that have be tested time and time again. Guess what, they work.

[jd783 64]

I started this debate from watching the video these where just my observations I guess all involved think the right thing was done, others on the board fell the line would have been better off going in the front door. Maybe all the guys in favor of the BLITZ attack should get together and write a book of FF tactics What the hell do Norman, Dunn,Clarke and Casey know

[lad12derff 283]

This was a garage that was SEMI-attached the only access door was on the 3 side of the house, meaning to get to the fire the line would have gone thru the front door and out the back doot then to the garage door.

Now, I ask the question, do you still enter the front door?, Or would you attack from a line streched around the back?

I understand what "the book" says, but what would others do?

Is a semi attatched garage the same as sorta being pregnant? It is either attatched or not. I have to agree with Debart on this one. We put the first line through the door to protect fleeing occupants and the structure. Trucks come in and start opening up to check for extension. We PUSH The fire back to where it came from while a second line attacks the fire. It looks to me from the video that the main structure was involved which leads me, as an officer, to want to keep it from gaining any more advancement into the structure. All of you who use the term "think outside the box" are wrong on this one. This was a "bread and butter" operation. The video of the truck fire on 95 in ct a few weeks back deserves the "think outside the box" statement because in all the books I have studied for promotion told me how to fight a PD fire but none told me how to fight a Tractor trailer fire. That's what thinking outside the box is!!!!

P.S. No one should question the IC. It is his call at the moment and he is the one that will answer for the actions of his men. We are mearly discussing firefighting tactics on a video to make ourselves better firefighters.

[Guest]

No one is saying forget the search, but its about priorities and calculated risks. You get on scene and the homeowner reports people unaccounted for is your first crew on scene going to stretch a line or start the search?

Lots of good points being made here, I hope all reading will look at all opinions and use them in your mental toolobox to form an opinion of your own. Thats what this forum is about right?

Anyway, NY10570 raises an interesting tactical question. WHich first? Stretch a line or search? I say stretch a line. If there are occupants in a burning structure, the greatest hazard to them is that the structure is on fire. Putting the fire out mitigates this hazard. The only exception to this is my mind is if you see a victim in need of immediate rescue. Hopefully you will never have to make this choice, hopefully you have enough manpower to stretch a line and have truck work happen in a coordinated attack on the structure.

[lad12derff 283]

Lots of good points being made here, I hope all reading will look at all opinions and use them in your mental toolobox to form an opinion of your own. Thats what this forum is about right?

Anyway, NY10570 raises an interesting tactical question. WHich first? Stretch a line or search? I say stretch a line. If there are occupants in a burning structure, the greatest hazard to them is that the structure is on fire. Putting the fire out mitigates this hazard. The only exception to this is my mind is if you see a victim in need of immediate rescue. Hopefully you will never have to make this choice, hopefully you have enough manpower to stretch a line and have truck work happen in a coordinated attack on the structure.

More lives are saved by the first line putting out the fire than a truck finding them during a search. very good point.

[Guest]

Apparently from the majority of the answers here, it is to ignore the IC who has done a quick size up of the structure and of its occupants, and still stretch as line through the front door to protect life (not present except the crew being placed there). Also from the tone of some of the responses here, a blitz attack is a bad thing, why put water on the fire from outside, and prevent exposure to the first in crew to all the hazards in the garage, such as the car, the acetylene tanks, and whatever other flammable items stored in a garage, because the book says not to. IF there was a door present, and the IC said there were occupants still in the structure, the YES the line would go in the front door. Apparently most people here are failing another common test taking question, READING COMPREHENSION!!!!!!!. The first line to the garage IN THIS CASE is the correct action. Yes another crew should do a more extensive/detailed search of the structure (You can never search too much). YES a second line should go in the front door to protect the search crew and prevent extension. Otherwise what is the point of the IC doing a walk around size up if it is going to be ingored because the book says to do something else..

RANT OVER>

Nobody here has said ignore the IC.

I do agree with stretching a 2.5" attack line to extinguish the fire, but ONLY AFTER the first line has been stretched into the front door of the dwelling, and is in place to prevent any further extension into the dwelling. And, a primary search of the dwelling has taken place.

When an IC gives an order, it is to be followed. I think we all agree with that. What is valuable about this thread is that a number of different tactics are discussed. And, in most cases those posting have backed up their opinion with solid reasons as to why they think what they think.