Update on Stamford Merger

[Guest Sqd47]

I for one would like to know how this one sided rant is an update on the Stamford merger as the heading suggests. I believe it is a cheap attempt to try to smear the President of local 786. Maybe the heading should have been SOUR GRAPES. I really think the post should be taken down by the people who do a fine job moderating topics. It has nothing to do with the merger. Just my$.02

Good Morning PJ,

It seems to me that this thread has turned into the repository of posting links to articles and letters appearing in the Stamford Advocate. Any time something new in regards to the situation in Stamford has appeared in the Advocate, it has been reposted here.

Are you insinuating that by my posting a link to a letter published in a public forum like the Advocate, that I am the one making a cheap attempt to smear the President of Local 786. I would be disappointed if this was your thinking.

I don't think the post should be taken down by the fine moderators of this website. I think we are well on our way to having an adult, intelligent, and informed discussion about topics we read in the media. (Just my $0.02)

Take care now,

Pat Kilbride

[Geppetto 31]

Tha fact is not everybody checks every newspaper for every article. EMTBravo is sort of a one-stop shopping for regional news. I usually have only posted the newspaper article and not editorial or letters to the editor. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. But also realize that the mass-media influences opinion. The general public sees the headline, and usually not the page xx response. We could esaily clutter this site with every letter to the editor, but that would certainly accomplish nothing.

As for why it was started - There are many brethren interested in what is going on in Stamford because it has serious implications for what every department should be/will be considering. Consolidation, regionalization, sharing of resources, more efficient use of funding. Realize that Stamford actually has about 25 Engines but some of them merely occupy floor space. Maybe Stamford firefighters don't want to be this area's test case - but I am not sure that resisting what will probably be inevitable is the answer. I am sure the consolidation in North Jersey didn't go off without a few speed bumps along the way.

Lee Iacocca said it - Lead, Follow, or get out of the way.

[Guest Sqd47]

Geppetto,

Thanks for the reply, you make some good points.

Saying that the mass-media influences influences opinion is very perceptive, I think we can all agree that the media can be very effective at slanting or spinning the truth away from any one person's view of the reality of a situation or circumstance. I think it is good that those of us in the fire service can discuss our take on what we see in the mass media, and give our feedback on how we see things.

As far as "cluttering" this site with "every letter to the editor", I do not agree with your assessment. There have been very few letters to the editor concerning the fire service in Stamford published, I know of 2 of them that have been re-posted here. There might be more, but I am not going to go searching for them right now. I do believe that there are plenty of letters recieved by the editor that go unpublished, and to be quite frank I am quite surprised that this latest one from Mr. Higle was published.

It is my firm belief that this website allowing mature discussions of real and important issues will lead to a better future for all in the fire service. As long as we agree that we will disagree at times, but as adults respect each others positions and opinions, real progress can be made.

[jcoppola 52]

As you all know, I am monitoring this thread very carefully. 2 reasons: First, I am truly interested in the outcome as I am a veteran of the volunteer Fire Service in my hometown and for some unknown reason, I care about the outcome. Second, I am a moderator here and I want to make sure the discussions stay on topic. I feel that most in this thread have done so with a few exceptions that have been dealt with. I really haven't seen any recent posts that attempt to smear a local president. If I do, I will be the first one to eliminate it. All the discussions about the merger have been mostly on-point, lets do our best to keep them so.

Joe

[Guest Sqd47]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. But also realize that the mass-media influences opinion. The general public sees the headline, and usually not the page xx response.

It has actually been pretty entertaining reading the posts of comments on that letter; it makes me laugh some of the stuff people will write when empowered by the cloak of anonymity. This board is moderated, and all members posting are registered and verified. The comment board is unmoderated, and it shows.

[FFPCogs 863]

First off I just have to say that this whole issue is a travesty. Mayor Malloy and his cronies have stooped pretty low in their attempts to bring Belltown "in line". That being said bashing Glenbrook, local 786, or anyone else serves no purpose at this point. This has now been given over to the courts, so let it take it's course.

On a personal note:

I served with the BFD from 1980-88, and I've kept in touch regularly since. These were and are some of the finest FFs I have ever had the honor of working with..especially 137..who was one of my most valued and trusted friends. I have been out of the loop here for awhile as I have been working overseas. It pains me to see how far things have degraded there. For me if Belltown does not want a city presence..so be it, as long as they provide the level of service the community needs and deserves. Let me say here that my mother still lives there in Belltown and I have the utmost confidence in the BFD for her safety and security.

Belltown has many options given the necessary operating budget to ensure the proper level of service to it's community. I know they would continue to uphold the finest traditions of service and dedication as they always have. I would hope that those of you that are now IAFF members who started out with the BFD would admit this truth as well. I still carry with me the lessons learned way back when on Dorlen Rd. and am forever proud and thankful that I had the opportunity and priviledge to be a part of that fine organization. I will do whatever I can to assist the BFD in their struggle for survival.

Peter Cogliano

Lieutenant

Camp Rustamiyah Fire Department

Baghdad, Iraq

[jcoppola 52]

First off I just have to say that this whole issue is a travesty. Mayor Malloy and his cronies have stooped pretty low in their attempts to bring Belltown "in line". That being said bashing Glenbrook, local 786, or anyone else serves no purpose at this point. This has now been given over to the courts, so let it take it's course.

On a personal note:

I served with the BFD from 1980-88, and I've kept in touch regularly since. These were and are some of the finest FFs I have ever had the honor of working with..especially 137..who was one of my most valued and trusted friends. I have been out of the loop here for awhile as I have been working overseas. It pains me to see how far things have degraded there. For me if Belltown does not want a city presence..so be it, as long as they provide the level of service the community needs and deserves. Let me say here that my mother still lives there in Belltown and I have the utmost confidence in the BFD for her safety and security.

Belltown has many options given the necessary operating budget to ensure the proper level of service to it's community. I know they would continue to uphold the finest traditions of service and dedication as they always have. I would hope that those of you that are now IAFF members who started out with the BFD would admit this truth as well. I still carry with me the lessons learned way back when on Dorlen Rd. and am forever proud and thankful that I had the opportunity and priviledge to be a part of that fine organization. I will do whatever I can to assist the BFD in their struggle for survival.

Peter Cogliano

Lieutenant

Camp Rustamiyah Fire Department

Baghdad, Iraq

Pete Cogs...

I second it!!!

Good to hear from you and it seems you are doing great!

JVC

[FFPCogs 863]

Pete Cogs...

I second it!!!

Good to hear from you and it seems you are doing great!

JVC

Thanks Joe

And yeah lifes good. I'll be out of here soon (in about a month) and back to the real world. I hope and pray the BFD will still be there when I get back. I look forward to stopping in there.

Seems like things have turned out pretty good for you as well...I'm glad to see that.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

BFD182-

Alan I got your message but it seems my reply didn't go thru.

So for you and anyone else interested you can email me at ffpcogs@yahoo.com. to catch up.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Guest Sqd47]

This morning's Stamford Advocate has two stories, one is titled, "Belltown Get's OK for Court Trial", and the other one is titled, "Turn of River turns down pact with city"

Reading online it seems the two articles are identical, anyone seen the paper and know if this is so?

Looks like Turn of River will be joining Belltown in 100% volunteer status according to the articles.

[FFPCogs 863]

If it is true that TOR will be going 100% volunteer, than this is a major opportunity that MUST be seized.

Unity and strength in numbers is your only defense and protection, so some sort of confederation with much broader authority than the "Big 5" is now NEEDED !!!. The remaining volunteers in Stamford should in effect become the Stamford VOLUNTEER Fire Dept...join together operationally, administratively ect. It may well be in your best interest to look south to Virginia and Maryland and investigate their set up. Also actively seek recruits anywhere and any way you can citywide.

For those of you who know me this is no new call to action. I said all this 20 years ago. The names may have changed but the story is the same. The only way the volunteer system will survive in Stamford is for it to grow into what is needed today, not rest on the laurels of yesterday.

I know the pride felt by all the members there for their individual department. I am proud of my time with the BFD too, but don't let that pride blind you to the realities you are facing today. As long as their are 5 different divided little kingdoms, you will never stand up to the city's and the IAFFs onslaughts. It is time to think beyond the walls of Dorlen Rd. or Buxton Farms Rd. Time to work out a consolidation plan that will be workable for the members but more importantly serve the citizens to the level they deserve.

The volunteer system can survive and thrive in Stamford, but only if the members are willing to make the changes necessary to meet today's realities.

I hope this hits home and makes sense to you all.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Geppetto 31]

Turn of River turns down pact with city/Belltown gets OK for court trial

Stamford Advocate - 06/26/08

Wynne Parry - Staff Writer

STAMFORD - One of the volunteer fire departments can take the city to court to try to stop a massive funding cut scheduled to take effect Tuesday, the start of the fiscal year, a state Superior Court judge has ruled.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/localnews/ci_9696263

[FD828 77]

If TOR and Belltown had paid personnel before all this mess, why is it such a HUGE problem for them to have SFRD paid personnel? Is it because of the "control" issues? Instead of 1 or 2 paid guys they would have 3 or 4. The volunteers would still respond the same as they did before. So what is the big deal here? In my opinion, isn't it better to have a full crew rolling out the door to the residents of these districts right away so they can actually do something when they get there? From my understanding the Chief would be in charge of all incidents unless he relinquishes control. I mean if you lived here or had family there, wouldn't you want an immediate response of a full crew coming if you/they needed help? It's all a bunch of nonsense.

[Geppetto 31]

The advocate finally got their site fixed -

Turn of River turns down pact with city

By Wynne Parry

Stamford Advocate - 6/26/08

STAMFORD - In the ongoing battle to maintain control of their district, volunteers at Turn of River Fire Department have voted down an agreement with the city that was hammered out over months of mediation.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/localnews/ci_9696262

[FD828 77]

I read the article from the Advocate about TOR rejecting the deal that their department worked out with the city. How many times did they mention "control" in the article? Too many. They should have been thinking about what is best for the residents not about who is in "control".... but this is just one guys opinion.

[FFPCogs 863]

It may very well be that having a 100% volunteer fire department may be in the residents best interest. As long as the Stamford volunteers can ensure 24 hour coverage. This can be accomplished in a number of ways. It would behoove them to look towards the Kentland Fire Dept in Maryland for a possible template. Kentland by the way is a suburb directly neighboring Washington D. C. They are one of the busiest departments in the country and consistently ranks as one of the busiest engine companies in the nation..paid or volunteer. This all accomplished by a 100% volunteer outfit.

As for control..well to my understanding the city charter grants control to the volunteer departments in their districts. Be it practical or not that is the way the city is divided.

I'll repeat a previous post by reminding all that my mother still lives in Belltown and I have absolute faith in their ability to protect and serve her and her neighbors there.

Maybe the Local should look at ways to assist Belltown and all the volunteeer FDs there instead of worrying about getting their personnel into those houses.

So long as the resident are well served by the volunteers let them have the slightly lower taxes as well.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

Put all the parties in a U.F.C. OCTAGON and see who comes out alive. Whoever wins can get their money. If you think this a ridiculous proposition, think about a career fire department running a station out of a parking lot because they are not allowed to locate themselves and their equipment in "my firehouse"...how freaking ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!

This is really starting to look like it is pride over providing stable emergency services for residents of the "100% volunteer departments", and a reduction in services. How can it not be when there was previously at least 2 firefighters manning a fire station and they could get an engine on the road within seconds but now it depends if there are people covering the station and the question of their qualifications to drive apparatus or fight a fire???? I don't care who reads this or what they think about it. We have been following this ongoing drama for how long now??? It's getting old, but I keep getting sucked back in.

The answer to a previous question about how come the vollies do not want career people in thier stations is that before, most of the employees were also members of the respective departments. When the Stamford FD folks come in, there may be a feeling of tension because the guys have no allegiance to the department. Other than giving it a try and seeing how it works, I see no other option.

The bickering thing doesent seem to be working for any of the parties. This post should not be labeled "anti" or "pro" anything. It is a realistic observation. I still remember where I came from and what I was given by BFD, and I have given much back.

For all of my friends at BFD, past and present: Just keep that in mind when you read this.

Joe C.

[FFPCogs 863]

This is really starting to look like it is pride over providing stable emergency services for residents of the "100% volunteer departments", and a reduction in services. How can it not be when there was previously at least 2 firefighters manning a fire station and they could get an engine on the road within seconds but now it depends if there are people covering the station and the question of their qualifications to drive apparatus or fight a fire????

Joe I agree wholeheartedly hence this statement

I know the pride felt by all the members there for their individual department. I am proud of my time with the BFD too, but don't let that pride blind you to the realities you are facing today. As long as their are 5 different divided little kingdoms, you will never stand up to the city's and the IAFFs onslaughts. It is time to think beyond the walls of Dorlen Rd. or Buxton Farms Rd. Time to work out a consolidation plan that will be workable for the members but more importantly serve the citizens to the level they deserve.

The answer is out there, but all parties involved have to be willing to look beyond themselves to achieve it.

To me the volunteers have every right to control their own destiny if...and ONLY IF...they can provide the level of service equal to or better than previously available to the residents. It can be done when pride takes it's place behind service...this goes for Local 786 as well.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[mstrang1 213]

Joe-

Don't forget we have a former WWF (now WWE) sports entertainer among our ranks... That could put the volunteers at a slight disadvantage. Not that I'm complaining...

To add to what fd828 said earlier, I cannot find the quote now, but the Chief of BFD was quoted as saying that 1 or 2 paid firefighters can handle like 90% of the calls themselves. I am not sure of the exact accuracy of the quote but the gist of it is there. Therefore it seems like they already have given up control of most calls to the paid guys.

Now that they are fully volunteer, how many people do they responding to calls? How fast is there response time? A couple of months ago, SFRD Engine 1 responded on an EMS call directly across the street from BFD. E1 was on scene already when the 1 volunteer showed up for the call. I believe the volunteer was not even a driver, so if this call was not directly across the street from BFD, he never would have even made it to the scene. This does not seem like response times for BFD have not suffered.

In regards to tension in the firehouses with SFRD employees in BFD and TORFD buildings, it seemed as if, for a while at least, things were okay in Springdale with E7, and things seem ok, as far as I can see, with E6 in Glenbrook.

[Guest BFD196]

Now that they are fully volunteer, how many people do they responding to calls? How fast is there response time? A couple of months ago, SFRD Engine 1 responded on an EMS call directly across the street from BFD. E1 was on scene already when the 1 volunteer showed up for the call. I believe the volunteer was not even a driver, so if this call was not directly across the street from BFD, he never would have even made it to the scene. This does not seem like response times for BFD have not suffered.

Before you post things about Belltown on this website, I suggest you get your facts straight. Engine One did indeed beat us to the medical that day, it was one of the few times that there was no one at the station and members needed to respond from home. Thats about all you have right. There were three qualified members that responded to the scene, and additional members at the firehouse to cover. Also, no one walked to the scene, the response was made on Rescue 44, and upon 44's arrival Engine One was cleared and Belltown and SEMS handled the incident without a problem.

To add to what fd828 said earlier, I cannot find the quote now, but the Chief of BFD was quoted as saying that 1 or 2 paid firefighters can handle like 90% of the calls themselves. I am not sure of the exact accuracy of the quote but the gist of it is there. Therefore it seems like they already have given up control of most calls to the paid guys.

How do you draw that conclusion from this quote? The statement is simply that most calls do not require more then a few people....what does this have to do with control? Calls that were previously handled mostly by the paid staff are now being handled by volunteers that would have otherwise been on the rig with the paid staff or stood by at the station.

[FD828 77]

Just because there are 1 or 2 members there to handle a call doesn't make it right. Just because "90% of calls can be handled by 2 firefighters responding" doesn't make it right. What do you tell the other 10% of the residents when you get there and can't do the job. What if the other 10% is a child or one of the volunteers own family members stuck in a house fire? And I am not saying that the paid engine with 4 or more guys would always make the difference, but if it were my family I would rather a full crew responding 24/7 period. I don't give a rats behind what chief is in charge at the scene. I came from a volunteer department and know the feelings of pride in your department. My family still lives in the all volunteer district, but you can bet your a** that if they wanted to put a fully maned engine company on 24/7 to respond immediately to my house, my mother's house I am all for it. It beats the hell out of 1 or 2 guys for the other 10% of calls, waiting for members to come from home or work (if they can), and it ensures that no matter what time of day,holiday, weather, or whatever there will be someone there to do the job. The all volunteer departments cannot make that same promise. I don't care what anyone says. We all have lives outside of the FD and are not available all the time.

[FFPCogs 863]

There are volunteer departments that DO respond with 4-6 man crews on each apparatus 24/7. Again look to counties in Maryland and Virginia. While these are generally countywide combination departments, they DO have a large number of 100% volunteer stations. These stations are staffed by a variety of means including live in members, (usually college students). For the volunteer system in Stamford to have any hope of providing the necessary level of coverage, these are the departments they need to look to as templates. The volunteer system as it apparently is will need to be updated to reflect the times. Having a 100% volunteer system in Stamford (north of the SRFD district) is not wrong, bad or impossible so long as the departments there are willing to take the necessary steps to meet the realities and responsibilties of the challenge. New thinking and a determination to make whatever changes are necessary to provide the highest level of service can solve this. And will (if acted upon now) guarantee a long and productive future for Stamford's dedicated volunteer firefighters. The payoff for their efforts is that the citizens served will gain a firefighting force second to none.

I just have to say here that a paycheck does not make a good firefighter. Paid 24/7 coverage is great but I'm sorry, the caliber of any personnel is NOT guaranteed simply because they get a paycheck. Just as it is NOT guaranteed simply by membership in a volunteer FD.

In my time working in Iraq I have met the gambit of firefighters..some good, some great and some to whom the term firefighter is questionable at best. The point is we are ALL paid for our service, but we are NOT all good at this job. Just like anywhere else.

If the volunteers of Stamford can rise to meet the challenges they face they deserve their existence and the support of the city and IAFF. If not they don't. It is really just that simple.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

Just another thought, and let me say in advance no offense intended to the author of the quote below.

If TOR and Belltown had paid personnel before all this mess, why is it such a HUGE problem for them to have SFRD paid personnel?

Upon rereading this post it dawned on me that there are other factors at work here besides simply "control". Let's be honest here in that the ultimate goal of the current administration (and most likely Local 786) is the eradication of the volunteer system in Stamford. As stated here in the past, paid FFs in the volunteer houses were drawn from the ranks of the volunteers in those departments. This helped to ensure there was at least a modicum of loyalty to the department and more importantly to the neighborhood by the paid personnel. These are people who live in Stamford, who have a vested interest in what happens there. Most SRFD personnel are now NOT from Stamford and therefore generally are not affected (other than in their paycheck) after their shift ends. Their interest and loyalty lie with the communities in which they live, as it should.

In this respect this is the one area in which looking back may be one of the best reasons to maintain the volunteers. Now I know Stamford has changed considerably in my lifetime, but the volunteer houses have remained a focal point to those neighborhoods and the members still live in Stamford. They still have a vested interest in what happens there, and a concern for their neighbors which is uncommon to non residents. This is not to say that SRFD personnel would not perform their duty to the utmost, of course they would. But after their 24 is up, there generally is no further involvement with the community. The volunteers on the other hand are consistently active within ther community on many levels because these are their friends and neighbors.

Again this reasoning to maintain the VFDs is dependent on their ability to meet the operational challenges of today, while keeping these qualities of community involvement alive.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[Guest Sqd47]

A couple of months ago, SFRD Engine 1 responded on an EMS call directly across the street from BFD. E1 was on scene already when the 1 volunteer showed up for the call. I believe the volunteer was not even a driver, so if this call was not directly across the street from BFD, he never would have even made it to the scene. This does not seem like response times for BFD have not suffered.

mstrang1, were you at that call?

A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

[Guest Sqd47]

I read the article from the Advocate about TOR rejecting the deal that their department worked out with the city. How many times did they mention "control" in the article? Too many. They should have been thinking about what is best for the residents not about who is in "control".... but this is just one guys opinion.

How many times since this whole thing started has the administration said that this consolidation "plan" will save money?

I like the suggestion one anonymous poster made on the comments section of the Stamford Advocate:

Direct Link click here

The biggest issues are....

1) Where are the numbers. How fiscally sound is this plan? Ask the mayor to publish the detailed P&L plan. As a taxpayer you should know where your money is going.

2) What has so dramatically changed that such extreme measures have to be taken to make these departments all paid?

[FD828 77]

Cogs,

I take no offense to your or anyones opinion. I am not from Stamford. I can say from my point of view that I don't understand why the volunteers feel like they are being "pushed out" if they are still going to be responding to calls? Isn't the SFRD engine just "replacing" the current paid engine that is/was already there? Why can't everyone just say there are/were paid guys there before, they are there now just wearing a different uniform? If they volunteers remain active in their respective departments/communities, I can't see why things have to change and everything has to be so dramatic. They have the added benefit of the paid engine rolling out the door when the tones drop and they still take an active roll in the calls in their district. I also agree that just because someone gets a paycheck doesn't make them a good firefighter. I know many paid guys that just don't cut it and many volunteers that I would trust my life with. Basically changes are coming, nobody is going to be completely happy. Lets all make the best of it.

[FFPCogs 863]

FD828,

I agree that to those of us that are not directly impacted by the decisions which come out of this, this whole situation does seem a bit dramatic (some might say melodramatic). That being said for those involved it is a situation that will directly impact their lives, and as such emotions are high. It is easy to look from the outside objectively and see this as ridiculous, but their are many factors for those involved...some of which have been touched on in this thread.

Also Stamford is unique to my knowledge in that their are 6 independent fire departments in the city. You have the SRFD and 5 volunteer departments. Each of the 5 volunteer departments is not only vested by city charter but are incorporated by the State of CT. In effect each is an independent entity with it's own district, rules, bylaws ect to run as they see fit. To the best of my knowledge the city administration cannot arbitrarily dictate terms of their operation, even if they are the major source of the department's funding.

I spent 8 years as a member of the BFD back in the '80s and even then there were rumblings of a SFD or city takeover. This is nothing new, but the stakes have become higher. To me SRFD personnel in those volunteer houses will lead to problems if for no other reason than they want ultimately to eliminate the volunteer system and incresase their ranks. And even if this is not the case (which I don't believe for a second) it is definitely the perception.

Just try to remember that there is more here than just how many personnel are on a rig, although that is of prime importance. If the BFD and other volunteer departments can meet the needs of their community (which I believe they can) there is NO reason for any outside personnel to be assigned.

And you are absolutely correct in that changes are coming, what direction those changes take is apparently up to the courts as of now.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

[mstrang1 213]

**************. No. I was not.

One other thing that irks me, and has for a while. In the city of Stamford there are not 5 volunteer departments. There are 3 (Springdale, Belltown, and now Glenbrook). There are two COMBINATION depts, TOR and Long Ridge. Springdale and Glenbrook stations do have SFRD Engines in them. Most of the residentents don't even have a clue to who responds to their house though. I was stationed at E7 in Springdale for a little over 6 months, and I cannot tell you how many times residents thought we were Springdale Volunteers. They assume that they are getting a full crew of volunteers showing up at their house, not a full crew of career staff. During my stay at Engine 7, multiple times NO volunteers showed up to the call, not even when we went on a call to a members house. For a while, I think Springdale only had 1 person qualified to drive E52. I hope for the sake of BFD residents that they have a better turnout than this.

And I am in the same spot as FD828, I came from a volunteer Dept, and my parents still live there. If they wanted to put a paid engine there, I would be all for it!

[FFPCogs 863]

mstrang1,

For my part thank you for the clarification. I assumed that TOR and LRFD still labeled themselves volunteer departments. My mistake.

Cogs

[Guest Sqd47]

**************. No. I was not.

You weren't there ?!?!

And yet, you post a description of a BFD response here that paints an incredibly unflattering picture of the department and it's members ??? A description that *MUST* be based on hearsay and conjecture ???

If you were on the witness stand in a court of law, the judge would have your comments struck from the record.

BFD196 *was* on the scene at that call, and gave his account of the events that transpired.

Seeing as how you weren't even there, do you care to explain yourself?