Volunteers Slam Horry County Fire Rescue

[HCFRFF 0]

Fire volunteers slam program

Department takes steps to streamline training

By Mike Cherney - mcherney@thesunnews.com

Horry County Fire Rescue should boost its number of volunteer firefighters to provide better fire protection, according to a fire study released last week, but some volunteers said the department's negative attitude toward volunteers makes it difficult for them to help out.

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Questions? Comments?

Edited May 24, 2008 by ems-buff
Violation of Copyright policy of the forum.

[robert benz 344]

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well i only read a little and the worst staion missed 94% of its calls while the best missed 39% of its calls THINK OF ALL THE FUEL THEY SAVED THE TAXPAYERS!!!!!!

[gamewell45 258]

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Questions? Comments?

Sounds to me like there are several flaws in the current system; ie...waiting up to a year in some cases to go through the process; only one type of membership (interior); negative perception of the department by volunteers; scheduling of tests, etc.

Most volunteer departments that i'm aware of take between 2-4 months from start to complete activation of membership. While they are working on correcting deficiencies, they need to speed up the process; mostly likely they should study other volunteer departments methods of processing new members.

Many volunteer departments have different classifications of membership; Interior, exterior, administrative, Fire-Police, etc. They need to study other volunteer departments membership classifications.

The scheduling of tests is something than can be addressed immediately. Most volunteer departments are keenly aware of time constraints among there members and schedule accordingly.

As far as negative perception of the department by volunteers, thats a problem only the department can only solve itself; anytime you ask or encourage someone to volunteer there time, you have to make it as attractive and accomodating as possible. The only other solution as we all know is the expand the existing paid staff and that means expanding the budget as well and most taxpayers are not going to be easily convinced that paying people to staff a fire station that gets a minimum amount of runs per year is worth higher taxes.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Many volunteer departments have different classifications of membership; Interior, exterior, administrative, Fire-Police, etc. They need to study other volunteer departments membership classifications.

And adding all the extra bureaucratic classifications benefits public safety and service how? There is only one classification that benefits public safety and particularly in a county system where getting a rig on the road in a timely manner with qualified firefighters is the critical, and that's interior.

I wonder where the stories and comments are for combo departments where the career staffing is completely mis-managed, under-utlized and kept in the dark merely for nothing more then "they will take over" or "we will lose control."

[gamewell45 258]

And adding all the extra bureaucratic classifications benefits public safety and service how? There is only one classification that benefits public safety and particularly in a county system where getting a rig on the road in a timely manner with qualified firefighters is the critical, and that's interior.

I wonder where the stories and comments are for combo departments where the career staffing is completely mis-managed, under-utlized and kept in the dark merely for nothing more then "they will take over" or "we will lose control."

Its not "extra bureaucratic" as you attempt to put it. Some people have absolutely no interest in going inside a burning building. Some may be only interested in assisting on the outside such as operating master streams, brush fire operations, serving as MPO, directing traffic, performing EMS-related work or clerical support functions. Do we as a volunteer based organization turn them away?? of course not, that would be ridiculous. There's plenty of people who desire to become interior status firefighters so why not use all the help we can get as far as non-interior work goes?

Most volunteer companies get a rig out on the road and have the necessary interior firefighters necessary for the initial attack; and if they need additional assistance, they can most certainly call for mutual aid. To staff a station with career personnel for for those 2 or 3 jobs most rural volunteer departments get per year, is not only unnecesary, it would be tantamount to fiscal irresponsibility.

[Guest fire38]

Its not "extra bureaucratic" as you attempt to put it. Some people have absolutely no interest in going inside a burning building. Some may be only interested in assisting on the outside such as operating master streams, brush fire operations, serving as MPO, directing traffic, performing EMS-related work or clerical support functions. Do we as a volunteer based organization turn them away?? of course not, that would be ridiculous. There's plenty of people who desire to become interior status firefighters so why not use all the help we can get as far as non-interior work goes?

Most volunteer companies get a rig out on the road and have the necessary interior firefighters necessary for the initial attack; and if they need additional assistance, they can most certainly call for mutual aid. To staff a station with career personnel for for those 2 or 3 jobs most rural volunteer departments get per year, is not only unnecesary, it would be tantamount to fiscal irresponsibility.

Most Volunteer companies? Is that your oppinion or a fact?

It would not be fiscally irresponsible to staff departments with career personnal. Career firefighters do alot more service to the public than sit around and wait for 2 or 3 jobs. They spend sjifts preventing fires and emergency medical calls, providing medical care, covering the routine calls no one gets out of bed for, and training. I would rather see tax dollars go to that than it go to spending thousands of dollars on a person who will never go into a fire. Especially in departments that have 50 exterior firefighters who are making calls to get points for their pentions

[gamewell45 258]

Most Volunteer companies? Is that your oppinion or a fact?

It would not be fiscally irresponsible to staff departments with career personnal. Career firefighters do alot more service to the public than sit around and wait for 2 or 3 jobs. They spend sjifts preventing fires and emergency medical calls, providing medical care, covering the routine calls no one gets out of bed for, and training. I would rather see tax dollars go to that than it go to spending thousands of dollars on a person who will never go into a fire. Especially in departments that have 50 exterior firefighters who are making calls to get points for their pentions

First off, if you mean staffing cities like Yonkers or New York City (which btw has 10 volunteer companies at last count), then I would agree with you. But definitely not for rural or suburban-rural areas.

Volunteers can and do everything you've mentioned above and at a fraction of the cost. Furthermore i don't know where you get your information from; but in most departments fire-police, administrative supportand EMS-only personnel do not require the same training that interior fighters must have. Each training is tailored to the particular job that person is supposed to be doing. That would be a waste of funds to train someone for a job they are not going to do.

Under your scenario, most if not all departments would be either combo or fully paid. The taxpayers wouldn't be paying thousands of dollars on career personnel, they'd be paying millions ultimately.

Finally, a friendly reminder, try to get your facts straight; volunteers in the state of New York do not recieve pensions; It's called LOSAP (Length of Service Award Program) and its an annuity, not a pension. There is a big difference between the two. Ask your accountant if you don't believe me.

[RWC130 594]

alsfirefighter,

I wonder where the stories and comments are for combo departments where the career staffing is completely mis-managed, under-utlized and kept in the dark merely for nothing more then "they will take over" or "we will lose control."

[Remember585 815]

Hasn't this horse died over and over again?

Combination departments are a totally different animal then those in the all paid or all volunteer world. It always seems to turn into a power struggle, and the overall point of existence (helping those in need) gets overlooked to accomodate egos, traditions or both. If your department has career staff it's there for a reason - and usually that reason is a lack of personnel. Fire38 made a good point that in some departments, "routine" calls don't get a response from volunteers and the career member(s) are the only responders. Is it right? Not for me to say, but I do hold the opinion that when you sign up to be a member, you shouldn't have the luxury to pick your calls - when the pager goes off and you have no reason not to go - you go. So many people in so many departments have the "it's nothing" attitutude and it is killing the volunteer departments. If your attitude is to ignore the "routine" calls then don't be surprised when you go to the firehouse one day and see an IAFF logo on the rig and a guy or two in uniform in the cab. (More then two would be nice, but we all know how that goes...)

You want your volunteer department to work - then put up or shut up. Stop resetting the pager, stop blowing off the "routine" calls, stop skipping drills, stop the "I'm a volunteer so I don't have to do that" mentality and STOP ELECTING LEADERS WHO CAN'T LEAD! If your department has a manpower issue or a lack of training issue, ADDRESS IT - DON'T IGNORE IT! Forget about your members, your LOVED ONES expect you to come home every call, so give your members the right training, and if you don't have the manpower to do it right and do it safely, then it's time to explore the other options!

If NYS does not dictate what training each of us needs - then each department should get with their neighbors, who get with their neighbors and so on until - as a county - we all agree on what minimums we should have that give us the basic skills & knowledge to do the job right and to do it safely. I don't get why in Department 1 you only need ABC training but in neighboring Department 2 you need ABC plus DEFGH and I.

Sorry for ranting on, just a little tired and a little tired of excuses with no progress...

Edited May 25, 2008 by Remember585

[Danger 160]

Hasn't this horse died over and over again?

Combination departments are a totally different animal then those in the all paid or all volunteer world. It always seems to turn into a power struggle, and the overall point of existence (helping those in need) gets overlooked to accomodate egos, traditions or both. If your department has career staff it's there for a reason - and usually that reason is a lack of personnel. Fire38 made a good point that in some departments, "routine" calls don't get a response from volunteers and the career member(s) are the only responders. Is it right? Not for me to say, but I do hold the opinion that when you sign up to be a member, you shouldn't have the luxury to pick your calls - when the pager goes off and you have no reason not to go - you go. So many people in so many departments have the "it's nothing" attitutude and it is killing the volunteer departments. If your attitude is to ignore the "routine" calls then don't be surprised when you go to the firehouse one day and see an IAFF logo on the rig and a guy or two in uniform in the cab. (More then two would be nice, but we all know how that goes...)

You want your volunteer department to work - then put up or shut up. Stop resetting the pager, stop blowing off the "routine" calls, stop skipping drills, stop the "I'm a volunteer so I don't have to do that" mentality and STOP ELECTING LEADERS WHO CAN'T LEAD!

This is gospel to me right now. You couldn't be more right.

[ex-commish 490]

Finally, a friendly reminder, try to get your facts straight; volunteers in the state of New York do not recieve pensions; It's called LOSAP (Length of Service Award Program) and its an annuity, not a pension. There is a big difference between the two. Ask your accountant if you don't believe me.

I thinkwe are being a bit technical here. LOSAP may not be a "pension" but the end result is we receive cash benefits each month after completed service just like a "pension".

[Doc 11]

And adding all the extra bureaucratic classifications benefits public safety and service how?

It helps by providing personnel to perform specific staffing duties in auxillary or support roles. You'd agree that filing training records, working up grant applications and updating the web site probably doesn't require 229 hours of fire suppression training? Does a non-responding station janitor who comes in a couple hours a week to dust and wash windows need to have the same training as the department chief? Fire scene traffic control and security might also not require as comprehensive a set of training as a firefighter. By having varying levels of expected capacity, the volunteer fire service is ensuring that it is getting it's ENTIRE JOB done without exhausting training funds on irrational levels of training for those who perform neccessary support roles. HOWEVER I don't agree with calling these support level people firefighters and mixing them into the ranks to inflate the suppression personnel counts.

There is only one classification that benefits public safety and particularly in a county system where getting a rig on the road in a timely manner with qualified firefighters is the critical, and that's interior.

Agreed. The bottom line is putting fully qualified and capable people on the fireground. However running a county sized fire agency requires a number of non-firefighting personnel in payroll, purchasing, maintenance and assorted office support roles, OR the dedication and waste of utility of using the fire suppression personnel for these duties. By reducing the costs for these administration jobs by supplimenting with qualified volunteers, less money is sucked away from the suppression side of business and the valuable time of qualified firefighters doesn't have to be wasted doing clerical work. The firefighters can focus on skills training and prevention work. Now, why a person would volunteer to push paper, I have no idea, but some are so inclined. I don't complain when we have a highly experienced professional grant writer walk through the door and volunteer to help us with that stuff.

I wonder where the stories and comments are for combo departments where the career staffing is completely mis-managed, under-utlized and kept in the dark merely for nothing more then "they will take over" or "we will lose control."

Edited May 25, 2008 by Doc

[Guest alsfirefighter]

It helps by providing personnel to perform specific staffing duties in auxillary or support roles. You'd agree that filing training records, working up grant applications and updating the web site probably doesn't require 229 hours of fire suppression training? Does a non-responding station janitor who comes in a couple hours a week to dust and wash windows need to have the same training as the department chief? Fire scene traffic control and security might also not require as comprehensive a set of training as a firefighter. By having varying levels of expected capacity, the volunteer fire service is ensuring that it is getting it's ENTIRE JOB done without exhausting training funds on irrational levels of training for those who perform neccessary support roles. HOWEVER I don't agree with calling these support level people firefighters and mixing them into the ranks to inflate the suppression personnel counts.

I would agree that filing training records would fall under the responsibility of the training officer and grant applications to the office of chief to delegate a person to handle it.

If you would all like to talk in generalities in regard to having "volunteers" for administrative purposes that's fine. But my post is in specific regard to the article that was posted. I'm sure Horry County has its administrative functions for the FD well in had. It is a county level fire and emergency services department, so even the rural areas get the same response as the heavily populated areas, the whole cost/benefit thing is ridiculous. Most rural areas pay fire tax and with proper management could have career staff to improve response for fire, ems and a plethra of other activities if it was looked at properly and ran properly. It would also save money as the insurance rates would lower as well.

585, excellent post as always and your right..the public safety and service aspect of it does it almost all cases get overlooked.

If anyone else would like to quote something...by all means say something, I'll be more then glad to discuss it or let it go.

Each training is tailored to the particular job that person is supposed to be doing. That would be a waste of funds to train someone for a job they are not going to do.

The waste of funds isn't training someone with more knowledge, the wast of funds is not managing personnel correctly to utilize and maximize their abilities. The waste of funds is the funds going to the person who manages those people for not putting them in position that best utilizes their talents.

[FD36 4]

In a place like Horry County, which is a really big area with alot of responsibilies regarding the Fire Dept., has got to be tough to take time out of the daily tasks to recruit new members. Its a time consuming process as well as a money issue. I don't think that just because it might take quite a while for the process to take place, should be enough to make someone not want to volunteer. If you want to give a service to your community then great, just hang on. Life will go on during the time it takes to work throught the paperwork. Then it will be time to go through the training process, which should be an exciting thing to be a part of.

It shouldn't be a discouraging thing, you either want to be a firefighter or you don't. And when its your time to join and get training, get as much as possible. It could save someones life someday or even better, your own life! The reason for such stringent requirements is to give every firefighter the knowlege and training to protect themselves while protecting others. All that we have is training, so when the alarm rings we have not only the know how but the physical ability to do the job.

So yes the process might take time and yes it is alot to go through, but it is for a good reason, safety.

All to often Departments don't put enough into the screening process, the traing process and the requirements to maintain the status of firefighter. Its too easy to give out gear and a pager or radio to people and then they don't come around to calls or more importantly training. The more trained people at a call the better. Imagine needing help and yelling to the nearest person and them saying I can't help you because I don't know how, I didn't bother to show up for training. I would expect to be able to call upon someone wearing turnout gear to be able to do the jobs of an interior firefighter, and not have to wonder if that person was qualified or not, because there might not be time to think about it.

If you want to be a firefighter then go through the process and get trained.