Scene Security and Landing Zones

[helicopper 1,050]

A good example of why it is so important to secure a landing area when landing a helicopter.

AeroMed Helicopter struck on highway

GRANDVILLE-- An Aero Med helicopter sent to the scene of a wrong-way Sunday morning crash was damaged this morning, and was still being worked on shortly after 10 a.m. on I-196 near the 44th Street exit.

Two people were injured, at least one of them seriously, in the crash reported shortly after 5:30 a.m. Alcohol is believed to be a factor in the crash, said Grandville Police Department Sgt. Kenneth Rosher.

Police would not speak about the helicopters' damage, but a Grandville firefighter at the scene said a vehicle backed up into the helicopter, apparently damaging one of the main rotor blades.

It is unclear whether or not the "vehicle" was an emergency vehicle or civilian vehicle but either way, 1) it is a very expensive oops, and 2) the helicopter was unable to fulfill the mission it was requested for. I know of at least two local incidents where a landing medevac helicopter had to abort its landing because of emergency vehicles traversing the landing zone and another where an ambulance drove into the landing zone ostensibly to "drop off the patient" but came dangerously close to the rotor blades with the vehicle.

Securing a landing zone for a helicopter is critically important and should not be taken lightly. Landing zone security includes pedestrian traffic (including responders) and emergency vehicles.

Good communications between ONE person on the ground and the aircrew is very important also.

[NWFDMedic 58]

This is a very good and expensive lesson. I can remember being on a scene several years ago where we had what appeared to be a well secured landing zone until a driver drove past a barrier manned with a fire policeman and went under the helicopter that was still hot. Apparently the occupant of the vehicle was in a hurry and couldn't take the short detour (and it was a very short detour). Unfortunately for the driver, they endangered a state police helicopter and its trooper pilot. For their efforts, they were rewarded with a nice pair of bracelets.

[dashield 61]

Since this could be related to the topic....

Does anyone else have an issue with the following..... Whenever my department sets up a landing zone we try to give the helicopter the largest possible area to land in but we keep our apparatus as far back from that spot as possible, in case on crash we do not want to become part of the problem. The issue is no matter how far away our engine parks the helicopter (both Stat Flight and Life Guard) will land practically right on top of it. It does not seem to matter if the helicopter passes a huge open parking lot it will land in a small driveway, if that is where our engine is parked

In the past we have tried to direct the helicopter where to land in the field but that never seems to work, they just always want to land next to our engine.

[TCD0415 26]

We mark the LZ with Weighted Traffic Cones laid down on their side (usually about 5 of them) which seems to work well. They usually drop it where we have the cones placed. And in the night we put a Lightbox inside each cone which makes it glow orange and easy for the pilot to see.

On a related note, what are the different SOG's out there with regard to standing by with a hoseline at a landing? I tell my crew not to pull the line unless it is actually needed. If it gets pulled and the helo goes down a distance away, then you lose time gathering up the hose to drive to the actual scene. We had a chief a while back who had the line actually pulled and charged....... I talked him out of that maneuver pretty quickly. Thoughts ?

[helicopper 1,050]

Since this could be related to the topic....

Does anyone else have an issue with the following..... Whenever my department sets up a landing zone we try to give the helicopter the largest possible area to land in but we keep our apparatus as far back from that spot as possible, in case on crash we do not want to become part of the problem. The issue is no matter how far away our engine parks the helicopter (both Stat Flight and Life Guard) will land practically right on top of it. It does not seem to matter if the helicopter passes a huge open parking lot it will land in a small driveway, if that is where our engine is parked

In the past we have tried to direct the helicopter where to land in the field but that never seems to work, they just always want to land next to our engine.

Is the ground contact communicating with the pilot or is he just told to look for Engine 123 and he lands by Engine 123? If you tell him where you want it, they'll generally put it there unless there's a safety issue or something. Bear in mind too, the pilot might be trying to make the flight crew and ground personnel's job easier by landing closer to the operation. If you don't want them to do that all it takes is a little communication!

[mfc2257 464]

Few other quick notes....

When I had control of an LZ it was always my policy to mark the landing zone with either cones with a handlight inside as previouslly mentioned, or eventually a specifically designed set of low intensity landing zone marker lights that we bought.

I always made it a policy to have apparatus turn off all warning lights so as not to potentially blind or distract the pilot as they neared the ground. The choppers have lighting that allows them to see everything they need to see.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Securing a landing zone for a helicopter is critically important and should not be taken lightly. Landing zone security includes pedestrian traffic (including responders) and emergency vehicles.

Good communications between ONE person on the ground and the aircrew is very important also.

Chris I agree and most of the problems (traininng and policy issues) are in the ground crew, however what happens when the problem is with the air crew?

We established a medivac landing zone in the parking lot of a large park, there was an LZ officer who was in radio contact with the pilot and a 100' x 100' LZ was marked off with scene tape (that was secured). After the Medivac bird was on the ground, a 2nd coppter landed without contacting or getting approval from the LZ officer. The coppter landed at the edge of the original LZ, on top of the scene tape. it broke and was sucked into the coppters engine intake. The pilot was later sceen pulling bits of yellow tape from the engine and stating lots of colorfull things about the firemen and the fireline tape.

We had no way to contact this agency and the pilot felt he did not need approval to land.

[Tapout 42]

Clearly, B, this pilot was wrong to think he did not need approval to land. At the VERY least, for the sake of professional courtesy, he should have notified SOMEONE on the ground of his arrival and need to set down. Geez, some of these helicopter pilots need separate choppers and/or bambi buckets just to hold their gi-normous EGOS!!!

Thank goodness our resident eye-in-the-sky is not one of THOSE types, huh! Yes, I'm actually laughing as I speak/type (my usual level of sarcasm must be measured on a richter scale) but regarding Chris, I actually know his bambi bucket only needs to hold water (and not his ego).

[Bnechis 3,961]

but regarding Chris, I actually know his bambi bucket only needs to hold water (and not his ego).

And any fish his divers missed

[Tapout 42]

And any fish his divers missed

LO-flippin-L!!!!!!!!!!! Yup, but those needing cookin' will promptly be addressed (and dressed and marinaded) by his lovely culinary school-graduate wife!!!

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris I agree and most of the problems (traininng and policy issues) are in the ground crew, however what happens when the problem is with the air crew?

We established a medivac landing zone in the parking lot of a large park, there was an LZ officer who was in radio contact with the pilot and a 100' x 100' LZ was marked off with scene tape (that was secured). After the Medivac bird was on the ground, a 2nd coppter landed without contacting or getting approval from the LZ officer. The coppter landed at the edge of the original LZ, on top of the scene tape. it broke and was sucked into the coppters engine intake. The pilot was later sceen pulling bits of yellow tape from the engine and stating lots of colorfull things about the firemen and the fireline tape.

We had no way to contact this agency and the pilot felt he did not need approval to land.

It isn't unreasonable to have two helicopters in a 100x100 area - the helipad at the medical center is smaller than that and they put two helicopters in it all the time. The reason for the 100x100 isn't so much clearance on the ground but clearance from other obstacles - wires, trees, scene tape, etc. Personally I think scene tape is a lousy marker for landing zones but I guess it served its purpose in this case, didn't it.

Did the pilot explain himself? Did anyone ask him what he was - or wasn't - thinking?

Approval? Do you really need to grant approval for the helicopter to land? Other than doing his/her job of communicating the hazards in the area and confirming that the LZ is secure, does the LZ officer have anti-aircraft armament (say that three times fast!) to prevent them from landing without approval? I see you referred to it as a coppter - is that Fruedian?

[Bnechis 3,961]

It isn't unreasonable to have two helicopters in a 100x100 area - the helipad at the medical center is smaller than that and they put two helicopters in it all the time. The reason for the 100x100 isn't so much clearance on the ground but clearance from other obstacles - wires, trees, scene tape, etc. Personally I think scene tape is a lousy marker for landing zones but I guess it served its purpose in this case, didn't it.

The medivac was in the center and the other copter was large (a huey) and he landed at the edge of the 100'. I agree that tape is not a good marker, we were in a large parking lot, with 100+ cars and 100's of people (WCPD did a great job of clearing them quickly). Our concern was keeping all the moving cars & people away.

Did the pilot explain himself? Did anyone ask him what he was - or wasn't - thinking?

He cursed the LZ officer out for using the tape, when asked if the IC had approved or even requested his agency respond outside of its jurisdiction he mumbled a "sorry" then went back to pulling scene tape from the engine intake.

Approval? Do you really need to grant approval for the helicopter to land? Other than doing his/her job of communicating the hazards in the area and confirming that the LZ is secure, does the LZ officer have anti-aircraft armament (say that three times fast!) to prevent them from landing without approval? I see you referred to it as a coppter - is that Fruedian?

I don't know, does a helicopter need approval to land in the middle of an emergency scene? Does the IC have any say over what agencies respond into his community? Particularly when they have self dispatched themselves (buffed?).

Now we really appreaciate the capabilities that other agencies can bring to help, but that particular scene was amazing. I never saw so many self dispatched agencies in my life and most arrived after 1 victim was transported and the other was DOA.

[helicopper 1,050]

The medivac was in the center and the other copter was large (a huey) and he landed at the edge of the 100'. I agree that tape is not a good marker, we were in a large parking lot, with 100+ cars and 100's of people (WCPD did a great job of clearing them quickly). Our concern was keeping all the moving cars & people away.

He cursed the LZ officer out for using the tape, when asked if the IC had approved or even requested his agency respond outside of its jurisdiction he mumbled a "sorry" then went back to pulling scene tape from the engine intake.

I don't know, does a helicopter need approval to land in the middle of an emergency scene? Does the IC have any say over what agencies respond into his community? Particularly when they have self dispatched themselves (buffed?).

Now we really appreaciate the capabilities that other agencies can bring to help, but that particular scene was amazing. I never saw so many self dispatched agencies in my life and most arrived after 1 victim was transported and the other was DOA.

I'm not criticizing at all. Yes, you should certainly have a say in what resources respond to incidents in your community. If they weren't requested, they should not have landed. I'm starting to get a picture of which job this was and I have to wonder...

Did an agency other than yours with jurisdiction/responsibliity request them? Was it a breakdown of on-scene communications between the FD commander and PD (or other) commander?

Was it a water rescue situation where there is an automatic dispatch of the agency in question? Doesn't that agency respond to many marine incidents the same way the Coast Guard does - in fact don't they fill in for the Coast Guard in this area? If this is the case, I don't think they were buffing per se. It was just a breakdown of good communications and common courtesy. They should have communicated with personnel on the ground prior to landing.

If the nature of the call warranted the response of divers, shouldn't we get over the communications gaffe and try to work together?

I understand why you used the scene tape and might have done the same thing myself. Who knows?

Interesting situation! Hopefully it won't repeat itself - either the incident or the communications gaffe.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm not criticizing at all. Yes, you should certainly have a say in what resources respond to incidents in your community. If they weren't requested, they should not have landed. I'm starting to get a picture of which job this was and I have to wonder...

I know you were not.

Did an agency other than yours with jurisdiction/responsibliity request them? Was it a breakdown of on-scene communications between the FD commander and PD (or other) commander?

Sea tow called NRPD Harbor, NYPD Harbor heard the call and responded, they requested ASR & SCUBA. Then the following agencies also showed up: FDNY R1 & R3 (plus other units), NY Housing Rescue (in case it was an elevator car in the water and not a car in the water), NYC*EMS (4 amb, 1 supervisor) and 1 VAC. To finally get control of the incoming units that were not called the draw bridge was raised (a great tool for staging/securing a scene). The communications between the 3 lead agencies (WCPD, NRPD, NRFD)was excellent. It was not bad after the copter incident once lots of NYC Bosses (from 4+ agencies) arrived.

Was it a water rescue situation where there is an automatic dispatch of the agency in question? Doesn't that agency respond to many marine incidents the same way the Coast Guard does - in fact don't they fill in for the Coast Guard in this area? If this is the case, I don't think they were buffing per se. It was just a breakdown of good communications and common courtesy. They should have communicated with personnel on the ground prior to landing.

It was not automatic and at the time USCG NY Air (Floyd Bennett) was still in service. I dont believe the copter was buffing, just lack of communication, but many others did buff.

If the nature of the call warranted the response of divers, shouldn't we get over the communications gaffe and try to work together?

I have no problem with them responding they are a great resource. We just need to coordinate things better.

Interesting situation! Hopefully it won't repeat itself - either the incident or the communications gaffe.

Agreed

[mfc2257 464]

With regard to helos touching down within any given municipality, there are various actions that need to be taken to gain approval. There was a case not long ago (it was thrown out) where a MV helo put down somewhere in a field in CT to pick up a child. The PD responded and cited the pilot due to an existing ordinance that doesn't allow helos to land within city limits.

[helicopper 1,050]

With regard to helos touching down within any given municipality, there are various actions that need to be taken to gain approval. There was a case not long ago (it was thrown out) where a MV helo put down somewhere in a field in CT to pick up a child. The PD responded and cited the pilot due to an existing ordinance that doesn't allow helos to land within city limits.

There are lots of unenforceable local codes/laws out there. As you said, the ticket(s) written to the medevac pilot were thrown out in that case.

Unless it is a scheduled or regular happening, it is unrealistic to expect the helicopter crew to have counsel research local ordinances prior to landing there especially for a medevac call. I know some "celebrities" have gotten tickets for landing their helicopter on their own private property in violation of a local code. They just pay it and chalk it up to the cost of being a celebrity.

[mfc2257 464]

Chris -

Agreed that it isn't realistic for a MV helo to get permission/research the codes for a municipality when doing a hot load for a patrient. My brief post didn't get my point across that a pilot shouldn't just put the skids down anywhere they please in an LZ especially w/o announcing their arrival.

Things look VERY different from the air than they do from the ground. If I were a pilot (I'm not)... and I had the opportunity to communicate with someone on the ground where I was about to land, I wouldn't pass it up.