School suspends Eagle Scout for pocketknife

[mstrang1 213]

Oneeyed-

Where is the line between tool and weapon? I have a Maglite in my car, is that considered a weapon? It is heavy enough to do damage if used correctly. If I stab someone in the eye with a pencil, I am using it as a weapon. If I have hot coffee and I throw it in your face, does that not become a weapon? How do you distinguish the difference? Are the schools going to become like kindergarten all the way through, with crayons for writing utensils and having to ask the teacher to cut a piece of paper for you?

[abaduck 123]

Tire irons, utility knives, leathermen, multi-tool and all the above are WEAPONS if used in the wrong capacity! If someone is hitting, stabbing, etc.. with these "tools" they are considered weapons!

Maybe I need to be educated because I don't understand how you think that they are simply TOOLS.

My fist CAN be a weapon. So can my car. So can a sock and a pocketfull of loose change. So can a baseball bat. So can a pen. So can a glass bottle. So can most of the items in a woodwork, metalwork, or chemistry classroom. None of the items I mentioned in my previous post are designed as weapons, all are designed as tools. Humans are tool-users; schools are full of tools. Ban things *designed as* weapons from the premises - well, except for swords and guns if there's a fencing or shooting club, where they're used safely - and leave the rest alone. With, of course, the severest punishment for misusing *anything* as a weapon, except in proven self-defence.

The emperor has no clothes. This is the same thinking that won't let me take a tiny keychain Swiss Army knife through airport security, but will sell me glass bottles of high-proof spirit immediately before boarding the flight.

mstrang1 gets it.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

My fist CAN be a weapon. So can my car. So can a sock and a pocketfull of loose change. So can a baseball bat. So can a pen. So can a glass bottle. So can most of the items in a woodwork, metalwork, or chemistry classroom. None of the items I mentioned in my previous post are designed as weapons, all are designed as tools. Humans are tool-users; schools are full of tools. Ban things *designed as* weapons from the premises - well, except for swords and guns if there's a fencing or shooting club, where they're used safely - and leave the rest alone. With, of course, the severest punishment for misusing *anything* as a weapon, except in proven self-defence.

The emperor has no clothes. This is the same thinking that won't let me take a tiny keychain Swiss Army knife through airport security, but will sell me glass bottles of high-proof spirit immediately before boarding the flight.

mstrang1 gets it.

Oh I get it!! When I got married my wife got me an engraved money clip as a gift. Leaving the the airport from Maui to Honolulu, securtiy stopped me and took the money clip because it had a file in it. I knew it, but didn't think to pack it when leaving for the airport. Anyway, they took it an put it in this lock box never to be seen again. Is the file a weapon? Not to me it isn't, but it could be, as could any of the above used IN THE WRONG WAY LIKE I PREVIOUSLY STATED!

If someone charges me with a pencil in their hand and I shoot and kill or injury them am I justified? If they are just holding it in a threating manner I am still going to instruct that person to DROP THE WEAPON, not drop whatever object they are holding!

[ryefd192 2]

I think a good question is. How aware were the students of this Zero Tolerance Policy? (sorry if this was said already)

[Mark Z 18]

My fist CAN be a weapon With, of course, the severest punishment for misusing *anything* as a weapon, except in proven self-defence.

The emperor has no clothes. This is the same thinking that won't let me take a tiny keychain Swiss Army knife through airport security, but will sell me glass bottles of high-proof spirit immediately before boarding the flight.

mstrang1 gets it.

So does abaduck! Well said!

[abaduck 123]

Oh I get it!! When I got married my wife got me an engraved money clip as a gift. Leaving the the airport from Maui to Honolulu, securtiy stopped me and took the money clip because it had a file in it. I knew it, but didn't think to pack it when leaving for the airport. Anyway, they took it an put it in this lock box never to be seen again. Is the file a weapon? Not to me it isn't, but it could be, as could any of the above used IN THE WRONG WAY LIKE I PREVIOUSLY STATED!

If someone charges me with a pencil in their hand and I shoot and kill or injury them am I justified? If they are just holding it in a threating manner I am still going to instruct that person to DROP THE WEAPON, not drop whatever object they are holding!

So they took your money clip. But as I said, certainly if you were on an international flight, you could go to the airside duty-free store and buy glass bottles of high-proof spirit and take them on the plane. Hell, you can buy them ON the plane on most international flights. You think that's not a weapon? Take off the cap, stick a rag in the neck, and if it's high enough proof it's an effective improvised incendiary. Break it, hold it by the neck, and... well you're an LEO, you must have been to enough bar fights to know the damage a broken bottle can do. Yet you can buy them airside at that same airport where they confiscated a tiny nailfile. Why does it happen then? Taking the file is security theater, being seen to be doing something. Selling the booze is economics; airports make a fortune from it. Can't interfere with that!

It's the same story with schools - some schools at least, it's shock horror call the SWAT team if a kid has a penknife or a camping cutlery set - errrr excuse me do you think the school isn't already full of far more dangerous potential weapons? Or do kids in high school still have to ask the teacher to cut the paper because they can't be trusted with scissors? It's ONLY about paranoia, authoritarianism and control freakery. That kind of thing MUST be refused and resisted.

I say again, the emperor has no clothes.

[jayhalsey 6]

It's the same story with schools - some schools at least, it's shock horror call the SWAT team if a kid has a penknife or a camping cutlery set - errrr excuse me do you think the school isn't already full of far more dangerous potential weapons? Or do kids in high school still have to ask the teacher to cut the paper because they can't be trusted with scissors? It's ONLY about paranoia, authoritarianism and control freakery. That kind of thing MUST be refused and resisted.

I say again, the emperor has no clothes.

When did the arguemnt that everyone else is doing it why cant I become valid for anything? Just because there are probably more weapons in the school, the school shouldnt enforce their rules when they find one? That makes no sense at all. While I agree that the punishment was extremely severe, more so than it perhaps should have been, the issue here, I think, is the rule itself. There should be a seperation of weapons on your person, inside the building vs locked up and secured in a vehicle in the parking lot. Providing that the weapon is legal.

Edited October 16, 2009 by jayhalsey

[abaduck 123]

When did the arguemnt that everyone else is doing it why cant I become valid for anything? Just because there are probably more weapons in the school, the school shouldnt enforce their rules when they find one? That makes no sense at all. While I agree that the punishment was extremely severe, more so than it perhaps should have been, the issue here, I think, is the rule itself. There should be a seperation of weapons on your person, inside the building vs locked up and secured in a vehicle in the parking lot. Providing that the weapon is legal.

What, exactly, is the point of trying to make a kid keep a keychain Swiss Army knife (for instance) locked in a car, when they can go to the cookery classroom and pick up a fish knife or a meat cleaver? Or a chisel from woodwork? Or any bloody classroom in the school and pick up scissors?

If you decide you want to have a rule against students having anything that could be a POTENTIAL weapon then I'm sorry you can't - such a rule is incompatible with educating humans once they get past pre-K. Unenforceable. Canute Syndrome. Actual weapons - things designed to hurt and kill - are a small class which can be described and controlled. Potential weapons can't.

You seem to favour an authoritarian viewpoint - you want to have strict rules that make no sense, and you're big on enforcing them; everything is a 'weapon' to you, even if not designed or used as such. I'm sorry, we don't seem to inhabit the same universe, and I really can't understand your point of view. I prefer freedom.

[EMSer 15]

Contact for the Principal of the High School

Angelina Bergin

Lansingburgh High School Principal

320 Seventh Avenue

Troy, NY 12182

(518) 233-6806

Feel free to send a diplomatic letter, calling for Matthew's reinstatement and that the incident be stricken.

Also, feel free to sign the online petition

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/HelpMatthewWhalen/

Edited October 16, 2009 by EMSer

[jayhalsey 6]

What, exactly, is the point of trying to make a kid keep a keychain Swiss Army knife (for instance) locked in a car, when they can go to the cookery classroom and pick up a fish knife or a meat cleaver? Or a chisel from woodwork? Or any bloody classroom in the school and pick up scissors?

If you decide you want to have a rule against students having anything that could be a POTENTIAL weapon then I'm sorry you can't - such a rule is incompatible with educating humans once they get past pre-K. Unenforceable. Canute Syndrome. Actual weapons - things designed to hurt and kill - are a small class which can be described and controlled. Potential weapons can't.

Wow. God job totally misconstruing my viewpoint. When did I ever say anything about "potential" weapons being banned? Of course everythign can be a weapon, when used in that manner. That is obvious to anyone. My point, which you apparently missed was that the powers that be at the school (school board?) has decided to ban weapons from the school grounds. Perhaps in your fantasy world, a knife is not a weapon. But here on planet Earth a knife most certainly is a weapon. As is a gun. Just because it is small does not make it not a weapon. Since a Derrigner is a small gun, by your logic would it not be a weapon? Come on, use some common sense. As for those "potential weapons" that you seem hell bent on bringing up, my guess is that if someone tried to take that fish knife or meat cleaver out of cookery class, or take that chisel out of the Woodshop, that any school with a bit of sense would consider that a weapon, when not in its intended atmosphere. What would you think if you saw a kid brandishing a fish knife in algebra class? "Oh, thats ok. It is just a potential weapon. He is probably going to cut some fish later." Again, you need to have some common sense.

The school set the policies and rules long before this incident. They were made available to everyone. This kid broke the rule. He should be punished. If you had bothered to read the entirety of my posts you would have seen that I have repeatedly stated that I do not agree with the rule the way it is presently worded, nor do I agree with the punishment that was meted out.

You seem to favour an authoritarian viewpoint - you want to have strict rules that make no sense, and you're big on enforcing them; everything is a 'weapon' to you, even if not designed or used as such. I'm sorry, we don't seem to inhabit the same universe, and I really can't understand your point of view. I prefer freedom.

Please do not attempt to tell me what viewpoint I favor, escpecially when you are dead wrong. The only point that you actually got correct, is that I believe rules should be enforced. You are also correct in that we don't "inhabit the same universe". I live on planet Earth. Not sure where you are from. Someplace where everyone is allowed to carry fish knives in algebra class, I suppose. Again, please go back and reread my posts where I explicitly state that I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE ENTIRETY OF THIS RULE OR THE PUNISHMENT THEY HANDED DOWN. I most certainly do not favor "strict rules that make no sense". I beleive that the school board has every right to limit what comes on school grounds. I believe that weapons ahve no place in the classrooms. It seems that you think that every kid should be armed while attending school. Is that what you mean by you "prefer freedom"? I personally would rather not see another Columbine. But mabe that is just me.

[nycemt728 49]

Ok, lets stop debating hypotheticals/philosophies here (what can be used as a weapon, zero tolerance, how dangerous life can be etc etc)...lets go with facts: the knife was not on his person, he admitted it, and he displayed no intent to use it. The young man can display ample reasons to have the knife and is clearly not keeping it for shits and giggles. We can argue about the rule until we're blue in the face. But since everyone insists on arguing on what might have been how about this: A young man of clearly good charachter (as a Scout and a person I was brought up to belive and do believe that being an Eagle scout and a soldier both mean a great deal) is in a bad situation that "may" negatively effect his chances of serving our nation in the respectable and honored way of his chosing/desire. That is just as upsetting as finding a weapon in the classroom. I'm really glad that as a citizen I was protected from a somenone who saved a life, is a leader, and wants to lead other defending my freedom...anyone detect any sarcasm???

[jayhalsey 6]

Ok, lets stop debating hypotheticals/philosophies here (what can be used as a weapon, zero tolerance, how dangerous life can be etc etc)...lets go with facts: the knife was not on his person, he admitted it, and he displayed no intent to use it. The young man can display ample reasons to have the knife and is clearly not keeping it for shits and giggles. We can argue about the rule until we're blue in the face. But since everyone insists on arguing on what might have been how about this: A young man of clearly good charachter (as a Scout and a person I was brought up to belive and do believe that being an Eagle scout and a soldier both mean a great deal) is in a bad situation that "may" negatively effect his chances of serving our nation in the respectable and honored way of his chosing/desire. That is just as upsetting as finding a weapon in the classroom. I'm really glad that as a citizen I was protected from a somenone who saved a life, is a leader, and wants to lead other defending my freedom...anyone detect any sarcasm???

Are you saying that he did not break the schools rules as they now stand?

[nycemt728 49]

Are you saying that he did not break the schools rules as they now stand?

I don't recall saying that; I have not personally read the rule, but it would appear he broke it. I was applying the same hypotheticals to the boy's defense as opposed to using them to hang him.

[jayhalsey 6]

I don't recall saying that; I have not personally read the rule, but it would appear he broke it. I was applying the same hypotheticals to the boy's defense as opposed to using them to hang him.

So he broke the rules yet doesnt deserve to be punished?

[nycemt728 49]

So he broke the rules yet doesnt deserve to be punished?

If the rule stands then yes thats the gist of it. This is the same reason we have 1st graders getting expelled for playing cops and robbers and second graders getting supsended for bringing a swiss army knife fork spoon set to school. If you want to make the rule fine, but you have to make the punishment fit the crime. I personally don't think anything should have come from this, but if punishment needs to be done, it should not be same punishment as someone who brought a weapon to school with the intent to harm someone.

Edited October 18, 2009 by nycemt728

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

If the rule stands then yes thats the gist of it. This is the same reason we have 1st graders getting expelled for playing cops and robbers and second graders getting supsended for bringing a swiss army knife fork spoon set to school. If you want to make the rule fine, but you have to make the punishment fit the crime. I personally don't think anything should have come from this, but if punishment needs to be done, it should not be same punishment as someone who brought a weapon to school with the intent to harm someone.

How do you know where the intent is? If somebody gets caught before they commit a crime, then you don't know if they had intent do you? The bottom line here is that the weapon was in his glove compartment. If somebody didn't tell officials, then they would have had no idea that he had a weapon!!

[abaduck 123]

I can't believe this is still going on. I'm hearing weapon weapon weapon this weapon that...

A Swiss Army knife is NOT a weapon.

A Leatherman is NOT a weapon.

A set of camping cutlery is NOT a bloody weapon!

None of the kids in the cases under discussion had a weapon! Why do you guys (and there are several of you doing it) persist in (seemingly unthinkingly) classifying ordinary everyday tools carried by millions of Americans as weapons? The only time I *don't* have a knife in my pocket is when I'm going through airport security, and said knife is not and never has been a weapon - here on planet Earth or anywhere else, whatever jayhalsey may say And I've been carrying it since I was 8 or 9.

The problem here seems to be one of definition. I agree with everyone here that kids should not be taking weapons to school. Where we disagree is on the definition of 'weapon'. I won't be part of the nanny state and I don't believe in wrapping kids in cotton wool, and I think there's far too much of that these days. I believe in teaching kids early to respect and safely use sharp knives, rather than metaphorically keeping them in kindergarten. My kids school has the same philosophy; my eldest is six and he's already preparing food with sharp knives at school and at home (it's a Montessori school and they start teaching them cooking and cleaning as young as three! )

[abaduck 123]

Wow. God job totally misconstruing my viewpoint.

You're right, I misplaced the start and beginning of your argument. I apologise.

I'm snipping most of this quote to get to the meat...

Perhaps in your fantasy world, a knife is not a weapon. But here on planet Earth a knife most certainly is a weapon. As is a gun. Just because it is small does not make it not a weapon. Since a Derrigner is a small gun, by your logic would it not be a weapon?

Now, that's where we do differ. You seem to assume the definition of 'weapon' is as obvious and unarguable as the sun rising every morning, and dismiss my position contemptuously as a fantasy world. Some knives ARE weapons. Most are not. Most are tools. Size has nothing to do with it. To me, a system of logic which insists that a knife/fork/spoon camping set is clearly and obviously a weapon is incomprehensible. We won't agree, but can you see (however dimly) where I'm coming from?

[jayhalsey 6]

Now, that's where we do differ. You seem to assume the definition of 'weapon' is as obvious and unarguable as the sun rising every morning, and dismiss my position contemptuously as a fantasy world. Some knives ARE weapons. Most are not. Most are tools. Size has nothing to do with it. To me, a system of logic which insists that a knife/fork/spoon camping set is clearly and obviously a weapon is incomprehensible. We won't agree, but can you see (however dimly) where I'm coming from?

So, a knife is not a weapon. That is a ridiculous position to take, but you are entitled to your position. If you want your kids carrying knives to school, that is your business, as long as the school allows it.

Bottom line here, whcih you dont seem to get, is that the school set a rule on what was allowed on its property and what wasnt. This kid broke the rule. He deserves to be punished.

[nycemt728 49]

Yes, and now what I think alot of us are saying, make the punishment fit the crime in his particular instance. I believe there is a difference between carrying a knife on your person and in your car. I believe there can be intent and no intent. And before anyone says I can't know intent...if the young mans word (a scout is trustworthy) is not enough, make him take a polygraph. That being said...the punishment should be somthing that fits the crime AND does not jeopardize his chances of becoming an officer. Make it in school suspension, removal from extracurriclars, inschool service hours, peer education on violence w/e...

[abaduck 123]

So, a knife is not a weapon. That is a ridiculous position to take, but you are entitled to your position. If you want your kids carrying knives to school, that is your business, as long as the school allows it.

Bottom line here, whcih you dont seem to get, is that the school set a rule on what was allowed on its property and what wasnt. This kid broke the rule. He deserves to be punished.

I wonder if there's a generational and/or cultural factor going on here? I'm a bit older than you, and I was born and raised in Scotland. And I can assure you there was hardly a kid in the school without a penknife or clasp knife in his pocket (and yes, it was mostly - but certainly not exclusively - the boys who carried them). They were never regarded or used as weapons, so I think to dismiss my position as 'ridiculous' is based on ignorance. It simply was never an issue.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if carrying a knife as an everyday object was, and still is, common in the USA - especially outside the cities. Rural areas, farm kids.

As for the rule... I frankly don't know; I haven't read the rule and neither have you. If the rule is being interpreted to define that knife as a 'weapon', then (in my view) the rule is being interpreted wrongly, perhaps by an over-zealous administrator.

If (as you would say in your view) the interpretation is correct, then it doesn't deserve punishment. "That's technically against the rules, don't do it again. If you really need to keep the knife in the car, ask - and we can give you dispensation to do so". Reasonable proportionate response?

[jayhalsey 6]

I wonder if there's a generational and/or cultural factor going on here? I'm a bit older than you, and I was born and raised in Scotland. And I can assure you there was hardly a kid in the school without a penknife or clasp knife in his pocket (and yes, it was mostly - but certainly not exclusively - the boys who carried them). They were never regarded or used as weapons, so I think to dismiss my position as 'ridiculous' is based on ignorance. It simply was never an issue.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if carrying a knife as an everyday object was, and still is, common in the USA - especially outside the cities. Rural areas, farm kids.

As for the rule... I frankly don't know; I haven't read the rule and neither have you. If the rule is being interpreted to define that knife as a 'weapon', then (in my view) the rule is being interpreted wrongly, perhaps by an over-zealous administrator.

If (as you would say in your view) the interpretation is correct, then it doesn't deserve punishment. "That's technically against the rules, don't do it again. If you really need to keep the knife in the car, ask - and we can give you dispensation to do so". Reasonable proportionate response?

I have maintained since this thread started that I thought that the punishment was overly severe. The only rules I am able to find on their website are for the elementary and middle schools. Both of these specify knives as weapons. According to the punishments listed in the Middle schools rulebook, this punishment was way overboard.

Your statement that nobody ever used a knife as a weapon is simply ridiculous. There is no possible way for you to know that.