NYC Bans EMS Volunteers from 911 System

[JJB531 652]

The Fire Department has booted the city's volunteer ambulance companies from its emergency 911 system, The Post has learned.

http://www.nypost.co...kvqwCo6INdiSjSP

Edited January 17, 2010 by jack10562
edit topic title

[nycemt728 49]

http://www.nypost.co...kvqwCo6INdiSjSP

I can't stand the Post, but kudos to them for shedding light on a abselutely ridiculous situation that's been going on for almost two months now. This is abselutely no reason for this. FDNY, as usual can't bear the thought of having to deal with another agency if they can get away with it. Unfortunately FDNY is the municipality and controls the 911 call centers, the vollies, despite having state certificates of need don't have enough muscle to push back. If I recall, they only recently overcame the attrition problem caused by resignations, retirements, etc and still mandate workers for OT...as a tax payer if that means one less bus has to go out on OT b/c I have a ready willing and able volly crew available I want it. And before it begins, vollies have the same certifications and their FDNY counterparts....so lets not turn this into a who's better equipped to respond debate. I hope James Vacca (public safety chair) and the rest of the council reject this notion that never volly squad will ever be needed in the day to day operations of NYC ems and smacks some sense into FDNY. It's totally unacceptable to say "well I'm sorry your mother, sister, brother father died b/c our ambulance was to late to save them while a volly bus could have responded but instead sat idly by b/c we don't like them so we didn't call them" There are better ways to do this!

[Anesti 329]

im sure james vacca will, the council members made a big stink about firehouse closings last year and they didnt occur.

[Guest EFFP411]

As always, there has to be more to this story then what we're seeing. I can't see any sense in not utilizing resources that are there when everyone knows there are WAY more people in NYC then there are ambulances. After all, doesn't Transcare provide some of their ambulances to the city 911 system? Will FDNY add units to make up for the stated 50+ ambulances they are no longer going to use provided by the volunteer base there? I'm just asking questions because I honestly don't know how the system works, it's been many years since i even lived in the city.

[tjdeputy 0]

I have a question i read what was in the post i'm just not sure if im reading it wright. Is it they are not going to use them at all or they are not going to let them log in to the cad system ?

[JetPhoto 626]

Every additional call handled by FDNY and not the volunteers increases call volume and gives more justification of larger budgets

[dmc2007 17]

I'm curious about the various Campus EMS agencies in the city. I know Brooklyn College, Fordham, and Columbia (among others) all operate ambulances that, IIRC, are part of the FDNY 911 system. I guess now they'll only be dispatched by their respective Campus Security/Public Safety offices.

[nycemt728 49]

I'm curious about the various Campus EMS agencies in the city. I know Brooklyn College, Fordham, and Columbia (among others) all operate ambulances that, IIRC, are part of the FDNY 911 system. I guess now they'll only be dispatched by their respective Campus Security/Public Safety offices.

Yes most if not all have the 911 participating agency stickers, MARS radios, unit designations, provided turnout gear etc...does that mean that they were actually used?? All of these agencies primary responsibilties were to there respective campuses, and were always dispatched/toned out by their respective schools. In the past, similiar to any other volly agency in the city could log in via radio or landline into the 911 system and theoretically respond to/be assinged calls. Whether or not they were assigned calls as opposed to the agency simply reporting being flagged and taking a job number is up in the air.

TJdeputy: Dispatchers/calltakers at MARS were instructed to not accept requests from volly agencies to be placed in service in the CAD system. If the agency is not in the system, there would be no reason or way of calling the agency, thereby pretty much eliminating them all together.

Jetphoto: Your abselutely correct, each call that the vollys don't respond to is more money for EMS...but at what cost?? Look at it plainly and they're choosing potential bigger budgets and revenues over lives...and not really having the numbers/proof to back it up.

Edited January 17, 2010 by nycemt728

[ny10570 745]

Before everyone gets their pro-volley panties in a bunch, a few facts. First and foremost, this is a procedural change that has no real affect on how things are done by FDNY or the volleys. While they were in the system outside of the days when their help was specifically requested by operations they were never assigned jobs. There could be jobs holding in the system and the volleys were not assigned jobs. The same applies to the university squads. What the volleys would do and still can do is respond when someone calls them directly or be "flagged" for an assignment they hear over the dept frequency. What changes is that when FDNY and a volley are on the same call instead of turning over a call 96A (or whatever their designation was) I would be turning a call that over to xyz volleys. In an emergency where FDNY needs more units to handle call volume the volleys will still be called for help and given a unit designation.

[nycemt728 49]

Before everyone gets their pro-volley panties in a bunch, a few facts. First and foremost, this is a procedural change that has no real affect on how things are done by FDNY or the volleys. While they were in the system outside of the days when their help was specifically requested by operations they were never assigned jobs. There could be jobs holding in the system and the volleys were not assigned jobs. The same applies to the university squads. What the volleys would do and still can do is respond when someone calls them directly or be "flagged" for an assignment they hear over the dept frequency. What changes is that when FDNY and a volley are on the same call instead of turning over a call 96A (or whatever their designation was) I would be turning a call that over to xyz volleys. In an emergency where FDNY needs more units to handle call volume the volleys will still be called for help and given a unit designation.

Vollies have been assigned jobs, or have called, asked if there any jobs holding and been given all but psych calls. This has varied depending on the borough, some dispatchers were more friendly than others when assigning jobs. Even if it's just a procedural change as claimed...take your statement, why is heavens name would FDNY turn down help with jobs holding??? Crews on the street don't ask for volly names, they as for MARS designation. on the chance the call goes to the vollies ..that's what they put on the ACR and report on the computer.

[ny10570 745]

Individuals may have handed the volleys a call here and there, but they were still not part of the sugu string. I had a partner who use to call Throggs Neck VAC every time we were going all they way out the end of Tremont or if he wanted out of a late job. It still doesn't change that they were not a full part of the system. As for not having a designation, that doesn't mean a damn thing. We turn pts over to transport units all the time without a problem.

As for why FDNY turns down help, its because FDNY has no control over the volleys. BLS isn't a money maker, its got nothing to do with billing. A single provider can provide a more consistent quality of care. This is not to say that FDNY is the end all be all of pre-hospital medicine. There are plenty of idiots employed by FDNY, however our idiots are better trained and better supervised then their idiots.

[ems-buff 81]

So what will happen to all the volunteer hospital providers, mostly run by transcare?

[ny10570 745]

these are volunteers, the hospitals are voluntaries. They're unaffected.

[JJB531 652]

So what will happen to all the volunteer hospital providers, mostly run by transcare?

The article talks about volunteer ambulance corps. Not the voluntary hospitals that are a part of the 911 system.

Edited January 18, 2010 by JJB531

[moggie6 54]

Its going to be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end. I'm sure if the 10,000-15,000 call short fall will be scrapped up by a commercial service. I wish you could get a list of who the volunteers work for. I'm curious if a large amount of them work for FDNY EMS or some other commercial service.

[nycemt728 49]

Individuals may have handed the volleys a call here and there, but they were still not part of the sugu string. I had a partner who use to call Throggs Neck VAC every time we were going all they way out the end of Tremont or if he wanted out of a late job. It still doesn't change that they were not a full part of the system. As for not having a designation, that doesn't mean a damn thing. We turn pts over to transport units all the time without a problem.

As for why FDNY turns down help, its because FDNY has no control over the volleys. BLS isn't a money maker, its got nothing to do with billing. A single provider can provide a more consistent quality of care. This is not to say that FDNY is the end all be all of pre-hospital medicine. There are plenty of idiots employed by FDNY, however our idiots are better trained and better supervised then their idiots.

I'm aware that many agencies have good relations with the guys who pound the dirt, and that calls were routinely made when it got near the end of tour or the tour was busy ...shows that the folks on the street just have a better clue than those who run the outfit....and that we can all work together. That being said, in a dire emergency EMS would call the agencies anyway, logged in or not...so why tell them to log in the first place if they were not willing to "give them jobs".

The training comment is without merit. First off, most of the folks who work for FDNY got their cert from somewhere else before going to the Academy...the same places those "less qualified" as you put it, vollies did. Does the FDNY have some great pneumonics, go into a little more depth in some areas, or teach things in a slightly different way? Sure does! That does not mean that our FDNY brothers and sisters are are any more qualified to give patient care: the state certifies EMTs NOT FDNY. There was a time when many volunteer EMS agencies had done pilot progams for EPI pens...FDNY had not rolled on that yet so if techicalities are to be argued, then the vollies were ahead the curve and more qualified not FD.

As for supervision, I seem to recall that in order to be given a unit designation, get a sticker and participate w/in the system volunteer agencies had to agree to submit to the control of the FDNY bosses onscene. Even if that were not in writing, I can not imagine that a volunteer unit would not defer to the supervision of a boss...who in most times is a higher medical authority. Yes I'm sure there would be instances of disagreement, but FDNY techs and medics disagree with their bosses as well. If by supervision you mean that the vollies have their own bosses, that is correct. However, voluntaries w/in the system have company supervisors that they are responsible to as well. Magically, there seems to be no conflict, no complaints that the FDNY can't control them.

Moogie6: Vollies come from all walks of life. Some work EMS full time, others do not. I personally know of volunteers who work or have worked for FDNY, private transport companies in the city, voluntary hospitals in the system, hospitals, federal agencies, NYPD, other city agencies and EMS education companies.

[ny10570 745]

moggie, there will be no fewer calls handled as a result of this change. All that changes is the volunteers lose their unit designations.

nycemt, crews trying to duck a late job can still call the volunteers and dump a job on them. When the city needs additional units to add to the system they will again reach out to the volleys like they have in the past. The only change and I repeat ONLY CHANGE is they are losing their unit designations. So instead of being 94B, 96A, etc they will be 201A, 401A, whatever. They were not before and are not now in suggested unit string that gets assigned jobs.

FDNY was last on board with the Epi pens because they felt there wasn't a need for them. They were the first in the state with BLS Albuterol because the populace needed it. This isn't about pilot programs, this is about continued and regular training. As part of the smart cpr study FDNY has demonstrated having a FDNY ALS or BLS on scene results in a small but statistically significant increase in ROSC. This is believed to be a result of continued training throughout the year. There were also surges in ROSC immediately after CPR training.

I'm not talking about the voluntaries. Between their lack of job protection and FDNY's heavy hand in dealing with them voluntaries generally can't get away with as much crap as FDNY units. The volunteers however have no accountability outside of the state pulling an individuals card.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Very interesting article about Bed-Sty VAC in Brooklyn...this article is a series of photos depicting BSVAC, its members and its operations....

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1955560,00.html

[M' Ave 1,466]

How does this effect religious outfits? i.e.: Hotzolah? (spelling?)

[weaselff 6]

How does this effect religious outfits? i.e.: Hotzolah? (spelling?)

Dont worry they will still be allowed to do whatever they want...

[ny10570 745]

How does this effect religious outfits? i.e.: Hotzolah? (spelling?)

This has no affect on the day to day operations of any agency.

[nycemt728 49]

This has no affect on the day to day operations of any agency.

Your right, Hatzolah will probably continue to operate w/ the same impunity they always have. But the other statement is simply the FDNY party line, bet if you any volly org they'll tell you calls are down and things have changed.

[ny10570 745]

You can keep up assuming and alleging things, but can you come back with call numbers from any of the volley agencies? How come there was no stink when this first happened months ago. Only when it hits the post do people, none of whom have identified themselves as being a member of one of affected agencies, start crying about it. Here are the facts. Shortly before 9/11 for whatever reason it was decided to give all the volunteer agencies a unit designation so they could log on into the FDNY EMS dispatch system. These units were never added to the suggested unit strings. They would just sit there in the available unit lists. Some dispatchers and units would take it upon themselves to dump calls onto the volleys. This was never dept protocol, just a few members acting on their own. The volunteers would also respond to calls they heard come over their local PD precinct frequencies or EMS frequency. The other alternative was local residents who called the volunteers directly. FDNY has removed the volunteers from their dispatch system. Thy are still getting calls from units and dispatchers trying to dump jobs, they are still buffing calls, and residents can still call them directly. Please tell me how I am just spewing the company line. Give me anything that disputes what I've said.

[Guest Loud412]

I'm not talking about the voluntaries. Between their lack of job protection and FDNY's heavy hand in dealing with them voluntaries generally can't get away with as much crap as FDNY units. The volunteers however have no accountability outside of the state pulling an individuals card.

The voluntary hospital ambulances still have to answer to the FDNY medical directors for their actions, and the medical director can restrict them from patient care in the 911 system. They can still however work outside the 911 system.