So What Do You Think About This One? From fatal fire in N.J

[Cutty630 37]

From Firehouse.com

ASSOCIATED PRESS

TRENTON, N.J. (AP) -- The state will review the actions of firefighters who checked out a house and found nothing wrong hours before a fatal fire killed four children.

Teaneck officials invited the state inquiry Thursday, two days after a raging fire swept through the house, killing the siblings and critically injuring their mother. Two other siblings survived.

Fire officials blamed an overloaded electrical circuit for the fire.

Hours before the blaze broke out, the fire department had been called to the home to check out a smell of smoke. A dozen firefighters from four companies spent about 30 minutes at the house, The Record of Bergen County reported for Friday, but could find nothing wrong.

The state Division of Fire Safety will review firefighters' initial response to the home and will audit the department's policies and procedures to ''make sure this type of incident never happens again,'' said Susan Bass Levin, commissioner of the Department of Community Affairs.

Teaneck police began the investigation, but township officials asked for an independent review to avoid any potential conflict of interest.

''We want the events that transpired to be looked at in a way that, whatever the conclusion is, it will have deep credibility,'' township Manager Helen Fall told The Record.

The fire erupted at 1:45 a.m. -- five hours after firefighters had checked out and cleared the house -- killing Ari Seidenfeld, 15; his brothers, Noah, 6, and Natan, 4; and a 5-year-old sister, Adira. Their mother, Philyss Seidenfeld, and two siblings Aviva, 7, and Zahava, 12, were injured along with a nanny, Betty Mbaza.

Funerals for the children were held Wednesday, while their mother remained hospitalized in critical condition.

''We are not afraid of any investigation,'' said Mayor Jacqueline Kates, ''because the feeling is that everything that could be done was done. But if the investigation shows that there are some procedures that need to be changed, we need to be aware of that.''

The origin of the fire has been traced to a basement freezer on an overloaded circuit, which caused the appliance's motor to burn out. Deputy Chief Frank Florio has said the condition was not readily apparent during Monday night's inspection.

One question the review could answer is whether firefighters should have used a thermal-imaging camera on their first call to the house. The cameras seek out hot spots that can't be seen.

Acting Fire Chief John Bauer has said the cameras wouldn't have picked up the circuit overload that caused the blaze.

Information from: The Record of Bergen County

[WAS967 97]

It gets better/worse.....

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/41784.htm

FIRE CREW'S FATAL 'ERROR'

By ANGELA MONTEFINISE March 27, 2005 --

Firefighters called to a Teaneck home where family members reported smelling

smoke hours before a fatal fire erupted should have used their

heat-detecting devices to locate the fire source, experts said.

"It looks like they screwed up, in plain English," a prominent New Jersey

fire official told The Post.

Four children, ages 4 to 15, died, and their mom, Philyss Seidenfeld, was

critically burned in last week's blaze, which engulfed the Tudor-style home

about five hours after firefighters said they found nothing amiss in a

30-minute search.

Afterward, Teaneck's Acting Fire Chief John Bauer acknowledged that

firefighters who first responded to the report of a smoky odor did not use

any of the three "thermal-imaging cameras" the department owns. He told

reporters that was because firefighters had found no smoke.

Some fire officials were shocked at his comment.

"If you don't find smoke or fire, that's when you use the cameras," said

Alan DelVecchio, Totowa's fire marshal and former fire chief. "When you

can't detect anything, it's that much more important to get the camera out."

Thermal-imaging cameras, which can detect overheated wires and other hidden

hot spots, have become crucial firefighting equipment.

The FDNY now has about 160 of the lifesaving, $15,000 devices - one for each

ladder company and rescue unit, officials said.

"They're used extensively in the type of situation that occurred in

Teaneck - when you cannot identify the source of a smell," said a New York

fire expert, who asked not to be identified.

The cameras, which pick up infrared radiation, can also help firefighters

locate trapped people by detecting body heat.

The Teaneck fire was traced to a burned-out motor in a basement freezer that

was plugged into an overloaded outlet along with a washer and dryer.

If firefighters had scanned the camera over the motors, they might have

detected the danger, experts said.

With the threat of litigation by the Seidenfeld family, Teaneck fire

officials refused to comment last week, saying they were told not to talk.

Teaneck Councilman Paul Ostrow, the township's former mayor, said, "There

are certain protocol for using that equipment, and I don't think they

violated that protocol."

Teaneck Mayor Jacqueline Kates agreed, saying she has "no reason to believe

the fire department was neglectful."

The New Jersey Division of Fire Safety announced Thursday that it will

review the firefighters' response.

[Guest]

How easy it is to bash a Dept. while remaining anonymous and not having been at the scene........ I swear, some people will say anything to get their name in the papers ! Shame on them!!!! [-X [-X [-X [-X

[WAS967 97]

How do you figure the guy was anonymous. They mentioned his name. And you have to really wonder if they dropped the ball on this one.

[x648eng119 2]

"They're used extensively in the type of situation that occurred in Teaneck - when you cannot identify the source of a smell," said a New York fire expert, who asked not to be identified.

I think that's what he's referring to.

Also, I wasn't there, but i believe if you have the equiptment, use it. My company has made it common practice to use the imager on almost every call. I'm not trying to bash Teaneck, but hoping that maybe others can learn from this. It doesn't take a lot of extra time to do a once over with the imager. It can save lives, that is reason enough for me to use it.

[WAS967 97]

Ah...i missed that part. But I'm sure there are plenty of people asking the same dang question. He was just balsy enough to put it in the Post.

[Guest Homer J.]

Gentlemen & Ladies,

While I don't agree with publicly bashing an FD for it's actions, especially when there are deaths involved, it is quite apparent that basic firefighting skills and techniques were lacking on the initial response to this house. I not only feel great sadness for the family and friends of those killed and injured, but those who responded and must live with the decisions they made that evening. :cry:

There was a MASSIVE screw up on this one. Plain, pure, simple.

Thermal imagers are for every call. Period. Those who leave tools on the rigs have no excuse.

More frightening is that no one checked for a working smoke detector before leaving a house full of kids :sad:

[4truck48 25]

To Homer J. You feel that " it's quite apparent that basic firefighting skills and techniques were lacking" and " that it was a massive screw up plain and simple". These are some pretty strong statements to make. How exactly did you come to those conclusions? Do you know what conditions the first arriving companies found? Do you know how they did their investigation? Just because a thermal imaging camera was not used does not mean that they did not do a proper investigation. A thermal imaging camera is a tool, not an end all solution. There are certain things in a house that give off heat during normal operation, electric motors, light ballasts, hot water pipes inside walls to name a few. If there are no signs of fire or smoke odor what do you suggest, open every wall, turn off every electric appliance. How many times do we respond to an odor of smoke in a house ony to determine the odor came from a neighbors fire place or wood burning stove and there was no problem in the house where the call originated. I dont know how the Teaneck FD did their investigation, and neither do you. I can only assume that your lack of experiance and information led you to make these unfortunate statements. And as for the checking of the smoke detectors, how do you know that they weren't checked.

[Guest Homer J.]

Well that didn't take long. :wink: Now that I got your attention. You stated "A thermal imaging camera is a tool, not an end all solution. There are certain things in a house that give off heat during normal operation, electric motors, light ballasts, hot water pipes inside walls to name a few. If there are no signs of fire or smoke odor what do you suggest, open every wall, turn off every electric appliance. How many times do we respond to an odor of smoke in a house ony to determine the odor came from a neighbors fire place or wood burning stove and there was no problem in the house where the call originated."

Yep it is a TOOL just like anyother. But if you left it in the rig, maybe with your airpack and your turnout coat you are WRONG. Simple, no two ways around it. That WHY it comes in on EVERY call. So the guys know what to look for. So the guys FEEL objects that look unusually hot and see if there is a problem. I did not say that there are not calls that end up being just as you describe. The point IS that the tool should not have been left in the rig. Ever looked at a circuit panel with the camera? Overloaded or high draw circuits look different than the others. If you reach out you will feel a difference and maybe look at where the draw is coming from.

And while just conjecture on my behalf at this point. IF there WAS a working some detector in the house do you think maybe someone might have awoken to it ?

Oh, and don't you worry. I have experiance enough to know when I am not far off. :wink:

Once again...lets learn from our mistakes and make sure that the people we are supposed to protect get what they need...

[Guest ewsmith70]

I have a hard time pointing the finger at these guys and saying there was a massive screw up here until the state of New Jersey finishes their report that we'll all probably be able to read. Let me start off by saying there is probably no excuse for not using the TIC at this call. That being said I think many departments are over reliant on TIC's and may be forgetting some of the good fundamental firefighting tactics that they used in the not so distant past before TIC's. These are some of the toughest runs in terms of the judgment calls Lt's Capt's and BC's must make. There is no substitute for experience and common sense approach at these incidents. The heads up firefighter finds the source of these more times than the Camera. Every time I’ve been stumped and later found the source I kept that one in my head so the now I have a whole checklist of places to look for the elusive source of the smoke.

[ny10570 745]

while it was not stated in any of the atricles posted here, there are others that state the teaneck ff's checked the detectors and that they were working.

[4truck48 25]

Homer J- Once again I ask, Do you know what the first in companies found, and how they did their investigation? And I'm not talking about reading about it some newspaper article. If you don't know then you shouldn't be passing judgement.

[Guest WolfEMT]

Homer J. has a lot of experience and wouldn't be where he is today if he didn't have at least some idea of what he was talking about. That being said, he is correct; if you are equipped with a TIC, and you don't use it, then what's the point of having one? It's pretty much been confirmed in the last few weeks that on the initial call, the fire fighters did not see any visible fire. Before they picked up and left, it would have taken maybe an additional 5 minutes or so to walk through the house with the TIC and see if there was anything in the walls. Honestly, and this isn't a knock at them, if they would have spent the extra time, then maybe 4 children might still be alive today.