On Scene Personnel Assignment/Function...How do you know?

[PFDRes47cue 653]

I was talking with a buddy today about how members know what function they have on scene and when this is decided. I know some department have specific seats on the apparatus assigned to a certain function (Can, hurst, ventilation, etc) on scene, these assignments remain the same call to call. Some department leave the decision up to the person in the "Officer's" seat on the rig, he/she will assign people to perform different functions based on scene-size up, updated info, etc. Other department, especially those where members respond POV to the scene, have members report to a command post, paid driver, etc to get an assignment.

Two questions:

1 - What does your department do?

2 - Pros/Cons of the different methods

3 - If you department has an assignment attached to the seat on a rig, what are the assignments?

Stay safe,

Madison

[FFPCogs 863]

I was talking with a buddy today about how members know what function they have on scene and when this is decided. I know some department have specific seats on the apparatus assigned to a certain function (Can, hurst, ventilation, etc) on scene, these assignments remain the same call to call. Some department leave the decision up to the person in the "Officer's" seat on the rig, he/she will assign people to perform different functions based on scene-size up, updated info, etc. Other department, especially those where members respond POV to the scene, have members report to a command post, paid driver, etc to get an assignment.

Two questions:

1 - What does your department do?

2 - Pros/Cons of the different methods

3 - If you department has an assignment attached to the seat on a rig, what are the assignments?

Stay safe,

Madison

I'll answer the last question first. Both here at work and back home assignments are determined by your seat on the rig, but the Officer has discretion to change assignments as necessay.

Engines Co. assignments for working fires at work:

1st due:

Officer

Chauffer

Nozzle

Back up /Irons

Door

Control (when available)

2nd due:

Officer/ search team

Chauffer/water supply/2 out

Search team

Back up line Nozzle/ 2 out if no OV

Back up line back up/OV if no #6

OV/2 out (when available)

For AFA investigations or vehicle, rubbish or dumpster fires at work (single Engine response)

Officer

Chauffer

Irons

Can

Gopher/nozzle for fires

Gopher (if available)

Engine assiggnments are similar at home but since there is no set number personnel the most important functions especially gaining entry and getting the first line in place are priorities

Ttruck Co, at home (with the same discretionary use of the avavilable crew based on priorities upon arrival)

Officer

Chauffer

Irons

Can

Roof

OV

I do not find there to be too many cons to this arrangement so long as flexibility is maintained when circumstances dictate deviating from the norm...like our situation here in Afghan. We have only 10 - 12 men to accomplish our structural mission here at KAF so while we do use set assignmnents and they work great, we have to maintain flexibility and use our personnel according to the circumstances as they arise. One of the major Pros for me here (and by and large back home as well) is that by assigning jobs by seat it helps me in keeping accountability of my crew(s).for 95% of our incidents. In a nutshell if an assigned seat is empty but the jobs not being done there is something wrong. Another plus for me is that everyone knows their job and can get right to it more often than not so I don't have to give orders or hold hands. This method met alot of resistance here at first but through drills and actual incidents, at least for the structural crews anyway, all are now on board and things are working smoothly.

I'm sure others will chime in with their views and I look forward to those responses.

Merry Christmas!!

Cogs

[firemoose827 324]

First of all, that was 3 questions, not 2.

My area can not effectively use the seating assignments due to the extreme mix of equipment specs. Some departments have engines with 5 person cabs, some (like us) have engines with only 2 people, a driver and a firefighter.

Mainly, we rely on the method that is taught to us all in Firefighter I and all additional trainings as well; Use the staging area. When you arrive on scene you report to the staging area, if I see a chief officer I tell them we are fresh and ask if they have any assignments.

The one thing I hate to see is freelancing. Most firefighters around me take it upon themselves to just go and do what they feel is necessary, and their argument is always the same "Well any good firefighter shouldnt need to be told what has to be done next, use your training and do what has to be done, dont bother the IC with all the questions..." Yes, but there is also accountability issues. So I instruct my crews as Captain, to always find the staging area, make sure you are fully equipped with packs and tools (different assortment, make sure one firefighter has Irons, another has poles, etc etc) and wait for orders. Too much confusion just creats chaos, and freelancers should be shot on site.

In our rescue the officer will appoint assignments when it arrives on scene, whether it is a fire or a rescue or MVA.

[everybodygoes 331]

For professionals its all usually done at the start of the tour. For volunteers it is usually done at the chief's discretion. I find that it is much more beneficial for everyone for people who show up to look at what is occurring and to either make suggestions or to do a quick size up before taking an assignment. Obviously getting the line in place and securing water and VES should be paramount but when you have to deal with people who might not be good at ladders or not as aggressive as others it becomes an issue. Probably the hardest thing for a volunteer commander is dealing with what you 'got' when things are to be done. Of course the same problems may occur in a career setting but generally they are not as prevalent.

Seniority above all should take precedent. Doing this for 18 years has taught me a lot, but above all, doing things safely is the most important, if you see someone doing something stupid, like taking the bottom of a window instead of the top, say something, it doesn't happen often but glass will slide down that hook and cut you open, how do I know? I saw it happen! Everything in this job is the way it is cause it has happened to someone else, and unfortunately the amount of unknowns is still so numerous its scary to think about.

Stay Safe!

[rayrider 94]

It must be like a chinease fire drill when personnel show up at various times without riding positions. Its tough enough with members having assigned duties. What a challenge. Merry christmas!

[helicopper 1,050]

First of all, that was 3 questions, not 2.

My area can not effectively use the seating assignments due to the extreme mix of equipment specs. Some departments have engines with 5 person cabs, some (like us) have engines with only 2 people, a driver and a firefighter.

Mainly, we rely on the method that is taught to us all in Firefighter I and all additional trainings as well; Use the staging area. When you arrive on scene you report to the staging area, if I see a chief officer I tell them we are fresh and ask if they have any assignments.

The one thing I hate to see is freelancing. Most firefighters around me take it upon themselves to just go and do what they feel is necessary, and their argument is always the same "Well any good firefighter shouldnt need to be told what has to be done next, use your training and do what has to be done, dont bother the IC with all the questions..." Yes, but there is also accountability issues. So I instruct my crews as Captain, to always find the staging area, make sure you are fully equipped with packs and tools (different assortment, make sure one firefighter has Irons, another has poles, etc etc) and wait for orders. Too much confusion just creats chaos, and freelancers should be shot on site.

In our rescue the officer will appoint assignments when it arrives on scene, whether it is a fire or a rescue or MVA.

Moose, I agree with you about the use of staging areas and no bag limit on freelancers with a year-round season on 'em but that presupposes two things. One is that a staging area has been established and two the resources aren't part of the initial response or immediately needed to operate. In both those situations, the resources should report directly to the scene for tactical assignment. This creates a challenge for both the IC and the resources especially in mutual aid situations.

"Any good firefighter may know what has to be done" but it is up to the IC to determine when it is appropriate to do them, and how, and by whom. Those attitudes exist in all the emergency services and they're nothing more than another form of freelancing. That attitude needs to be adjusted and those with it reminded that there is a chain of command and responsibility that rests squarely on the IC. Asking him questions is not bothering him.

Happy holidays and I hope Schoharie has finally dried out!

[helicopper 1,050]

In our rescue the officer will appoint assignments when it arrives on scene, whether it is a fire or a rescue or MVA.

Does all apparatus respond with a company officer and crew or is it just a matter of whomever shows up?

(Looking for everyone's input not just Brian's)

[everybodygoes 331]

Ray, if you have people that know how to operate things are usually smooth, they will take a crew with them to operate and the IC will be aware of who is doing what. Accountability is the biggest issue, and we are very lucky with the advent of modern accountability systems and not just having to look at who was at work or who's car is out in the street, but that is not available to everyone. If I was a volunteer chief I would personally canvas each member to find their strength and weakness', not an easy task, but one that will allow everyone to either improve or allow their limitations to be known so a guy who is deathly afraid of ladders is not felt they have to climb one when the guy who does roofing 5 days a week is searching a basement. As much as I hate this new feel good fire dept EEO garbage it is much better to know what someone can do then to expect it and have an injury or the job not completed, and of utmost importance is emphasizing the fact that a man or woman who is brave enough to announce their fears is far braver than a man or woman who makes fun of them.

[PFDRes47cue 653]

If I was a volunteer chief I would personally canvas each member to find their strength and weakness', not an easy task, but one that will allow everyone to either improve or allow their limitations to be known so a guy who is deathly afraid of ladders is not felt they have to climb one when the guy who does roofing 5 days a week is searching a basement. As much as I hate this new feel good fire dept EEO garbage it is much better to know what someone can do then to expect it and have an injury or the job not completed, and of utmost importance is emphasizing the fact that a man or woman who is brave enough to announce their fears is far braver than a man or woman who makes fun of them.

I agree with you 100% and I think that more people do this subconsciously then we think. A good time for Chiefs or Officers to do this is during training. This is why it is so important to take training seriously and to make it as real as possible. This way, when a run comes in the Officer knows who is the best fit for a task. If you know who is really good with Res-Q-Jacks or the Jaws, then it makes scenes run more efficiently.

[firemoose827 324]

Does all apparatus respond with a company officer and crew or is it just a matter of whomever shows up?

(Looking for everyone's input not just Brian's)

Our engines only have two seats, so we roll them with whoever is at the station, officer or just firefighter. Our chiefs respond to the scene unless one is already there, then the others go to station for equipment. Generally we have an IC on scene in the first few minutes, and they designate jobs as crews arrive.

For our rescue (old orange county rig, I believe its Woodbury, I will post pictures) there is seating for 5 in the back and two in the cab, but the cab is separated from the back and the old PA system doesnt work. Once we are on scene the officer will appoint jobs.

Basically, for us out here its a matter of getting equipment to the scene and establishing IC, Staging and water supply. The IC issues orders to initial attack crews, than goes to staging for additional orders like venting and salvage.

When we go mutual aid to other departments we are usually the only ones staging, the rest of the scene is sometimes chaos, but lots of firefighters walking around with their own chiefs or officers doing what they feel is needed (freelancing) and the mutual aid chief is always happy to have us because they know we stage and wait for orders. But when we go mutual aid its usually just our engine-tanker and our rescue with manpower (interior qualified only) so the tanker crew operates as tanker shuttle, and the rescue crews pack up and gear up and find staging, if we have an officer there they will find the IC and report how many we have on scene and our status. We pride ourselves with this and are slowly becoming respected in our county for it.

And yes, Schoharie county is finaly drying up, but we still have need to support flood victims who lost everything and are living in either FEMA trailers or their own camping trailers and have no clothing or food, so we are still running a shelter support operation out of our firehouse, which now looks more like a general store than a firehouse!! But thank you for asking.

Everyone have a safe and happy christmas!!! (No one better pull a christmas job this year, but if they do, be safe and get back home to your families!!)

[JohnnyOV 2]

Does all apparatus respond with a company officer and crew or is it just a matter of whomever shows up?

(Looking for everyone's input not just Brian's)

It all depends on the situation presented at the time. Our district is almost 37 square miles big, so expecting everyone to show up to the firehouse to respond is not only pointless, it would delay our response, especially since we only have 2 stations (insurance co audits actually recommended 5 stations). Anyways, a majority of the time we have guys hanging around the main firehouse, enough to get 2 pieces on the road with 2 or 3 guys on the rigs each. Sometimes there are full apparatus, and sometimes we're rolling driver only. Right now, it's just the nature of the beast and we're actively trying to address that problem.

People in the rigs will get assignments as we ride to the scene, and prioritize each function depending on the staffing level. People who arrive on scene in their POV will meet with the IC and get their assignment from there.

If I'm responding driver only, there are about 1000 things going through my mind on what needs to be done when I arrive. If I have a crew with me, the guy sitting in the right seat makes all those decisions, and I know that as the MPO, I'll be operating the pump, flaking out line, securing a water source, throwing ladders, basically any function on the outside that needs to be accomplished if we arrive with minimum manpower.

I wont hide behind a smoke screen and say that manpower is great 100% of the time. Just like every other department (even if you refuse to admit it) we're dealt with a crappy hand sometimes. It's how you overcome those obstacles in the first 10 seconds, prioritize what needs to be done first and effectively accomplish those tasks in a short time period.

Edited December 23, 2011 by JohnnyOV