Fire Horns

[Guest EMSCOMM80]

1. The town people know that emergency vehicles will be out on the roads so they can be more alert. -- I’ve got news for you… most civilians are oblivious to the siren. Those who notice it think it’s either a test, or call in to find out what it wrong @ Indian Point.

2. If you want to go to church or a school event, you do not have to bring your pager. Pagers make a lot of noise, even if you have one of the ones that vibrates. It is considerate to others. – Sit close to an exit, keep your pager low or on vibrate. When it goes off, step outside. It seems to work for everyone I know. …If this is a real concern for you… don’t carry your pager!

3. It's nice to have the town people know that their volunteers are out on a call, during the day or in the middle of the night. Let them know how often you are called! -- Again, most civilians do not notice the siren. They don’t care when or how often you are called out until it directly affects them.

4. There have been many times that our pager systems have been down and the only way we know there is a call is if the horn blows. – …or if your department was to call members @ home to set up a duty crew until the problem could be fixed.

I’m not trying to put you on the spot… Sirens are outdated and an annoyance to the public.

[IzzyEng4 427]

EMSCOMM80,

You are right on many of your points. But the problem lies with this..... WE ARE WORST ENEMIES ABOUT TEACHING THE PUBLIC ABOUT ALL THE EQUIPMENT WE USE.. (caps for emphasis only). When I go to Delware county to visit my girl's family, It was nice to hear the after noon and evening signals. One day in particular there was a group of teens from the area and teh noon signal went off. One of them just said "It's 12 already????"

Quite to my suprise to hear this but that is what the problem is. Many new people who move into these districts or towns complain about the noise and everything else. We had one resident in my town that wanted us to stop using the truck sirens after a vertain hour. Needless to say residents don't even acknowledge or move out of the way of trucks now!!!!!!!! Who hear hasn't had someone pull over to the right like there supposed to?????

Alerting sirens are not outdated, they need to be updated. And now in the age of homelans security, any town, village, hamlet, or county that wants to install a siren warning device is guarantee to get a grant to put one in. We're reverting back to the CD days.

Plus too, when was the last time that anyone had received a public notice or saw in the papaer or the news about alert sirens??? NEVER. You always see the negative side of the story, not the reason why they are there. Case and point That is why in my opinion why you all had the problem with Indian Point doing there test. We had the same problem up here at Milstone a few years back while that plant was still operating. Half the people knew what it was for and the other half either didn't know or ignored it. Now if this was a real emergency, we know who will be still walking around with no clue to get out.

Another point is this, I had a neighbor who moved in from one of the larger cities up here come to me and ask about out siren. Again he said it was annoying, which I understand, but I explained it to him. We use the box signals to alert the firefighters and public of where the alarm is. We also have a box signal for NO SCHOOL, MAJOR EMERGENCY, the old AIR RAID signal, and also incase the river that flows through the city floods. I also explained that incase we lost power or even if our radio system failed for some odd reason (I've worked as a fire dispatcher for several towns and it is not fun when the radio system failed. There was no other way of alerting them of a call since they got rid of their Gamewell system), we will still be alerted to a call from a pull box since it is a separate power suppy to it and runs on a generator. Of course, all things can fail right?? Murphy's Law. Another case and point, go into every house that you respond to and see how many people have a wall mounted or cord phone, not many. How can they dial 911??? Cell phones, forget it, not many of thier backups work well on the towers. At least the pull box system will work where we are. We proved that when we had the black out a few years ago, until UI was able to get all of us back up in 30 minutes.

Yest, cost is a factor for many cities and agencies to keep these systems up, it's hard and that is the main factor why we may loos part of our system. Tradition? Yah it's fine but also when it comes to something that works, sometime traditional means work better.

My point is simple...

1. Educate the public that if there is an alert sytem in place, explain what it is used for. Give a "run card" locator with the boxes or signals and an explaination why they are in use.

2. Look at homeland security and see what is recomended about warning sirens and direct the public to look up the information them selves.

3. Remind them that a little inconvenience may infact help them or someone they know incase of an emergency.

4. Let them know that even though we have pagers that the alert horns also notify use incase we don't have a pager on, near a scanner or like several FD's, don't have pagers at all. Also let them know this is a good back up to alert emergency services and the public that something is going on.

5. If you educate the public about the warnign siren, then people are more adapted to realize and not freak out then the trucks come roaring by.

It's not hard to do everyone. We just have to make people more aware and smart again.

[loopy31 12]

To EMSCOMM 80,

First of all that one point I made about the public knowing we are out on calls a lot. We are in a smaller town, but a busy one. Many of our towns people don't realize how busy we are. Since we got a new siren, many towns people that I know have said to me, "wow you guys must have been really busy today, I heard the siren several times." (with a good connotation to it) It gives the towns people acknowledgement that we are needed more than they ever realized Maybe this doesn't happen in your town, but I think it works well for us in ours.

As far as the paging system not working and getting a crew to standby. The times that the paging system was not working, we did not know it was not working. It took the PD trying to dispatch us, and our pagers not getting tripped to discover the problem. It would be nice to know in advance, but sometimes you can't. It's just a good back up system. Things go wrong sometimes with equipment, no matter how much you have it tested.

[Guest EMSCOMM80]

Izzy,

I absolutely agree with you that we are our own worst enemies when it comes to educating the public about the equipment we use. I think you made some outstanding points at the end of your post.

…although, I still think that no matter how many pamphlets you hand out, no matter how many “open houses†you hold…it is still really tough to educate the general public. Generally speaking, the public does not think of anything in reference to us until they need us.

As for the siren, I still don’t think they need to be utilized every day, especially for every alarm. If you absolutely have to use the siren, save it for structure fires, MCIs, HAZ MAT, etc.

I am curious what Homeland Security recommends for siren use. Anyone know??

Loopy --

I still don't understand why the public cares how many calls your department goes on. If they are interested they can look in the newspaper or request the information from the department.

[IzzyEng4 427]

EMS, definately, but also persistance does help. Unfortunately, like you said in not so many word, people have become very complacent and only care about use when they need us. I whole heartedly agree.

There is a time an place when to use a siren system of course, but it also depends what type of system. For use, we use the gamewll box location system. If its from a pull station, the box "rings" the number four times. If we get a call by 911 or from a walk up or police officer, then the box number is struck 3 times. If its a non-fire emergency (AKA Hazmat), then the signal is 3 blast, four times.

This alerts us what we are going to. I don't think we need to have a siren activated for a punp out or wires down or a public assist of some sort, unless it an extreem public danger.

I have to find the homeland security outline, I had it when it came out in 2002 but I don't remember what the guidelines are now.

[Guest]

EMS, definately, but also persistance does help.  Unfortunately, like you said in not so many word, people have become very complacent and only care about use when they need us.  I whole heartedly agree.

There is a time an place when to use a siren system of course, but it also depends what type of system.  For use, we use the gamewll box location system.  If its from a pull station, the box "rings" the number four times.  If we get a call by 911 or from a walk up or police officer, then the box number is struck 3 times.  If its a non-fire emergency (AKA Hazmat), then the signal is 3 blast, four times.

This alerts us what we are going to.  I don't think we need to have a siren activated for a punp out or wires down or a public assist of some sort, unless it an extreem public danger.

I have to find the homeland security outline, I had it when it came out in 2002 but I don't remember what the guidelines are now.

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[VistaFD126 0]

My dept still uses a Siren 5 times for fire calls 3 times for ems calls, its sup to be a NYS law that for volunteer depts you must have 2 ways of alerting members for calls 1 pagers..the other way horn, or siren but not all westchester county depts use them so i'm not sure someone else may have to tell me if its true or not if thats a real law

[loopy31 12]

EMSCOMM80,

I am not sure where you are a member, but where we work, the public wants to know where their tax dollars are going. They are very critical of us, saying that we are a "small community" and we don't need the a large fire department with all the equipment that we have. Them hearing the siren, gives them a sense of how busy we actually are. It means a lot to our members that they get this justification. They think we are just members to have a place to hang out. I'm sure it make little sense to you and a lot of people, but when you get verbally attacked in your town as a volunteer you want some justification.

TO VISTAFD 126, I believe that you are right that NFPA requires a secondary way of notifcation for calls. The pager is one, and the siren is another. I do understand that you can get text messaging from the county as a secondary means, but if 60 Control is not your primary dispatch, then you do not have this option. We get dipatched by our local police department, so we don't have the text messaging option.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Someone correct me if im wrong, please, but it is my understanding (through what ive been taught down here in FL) that the NFPA are guidelines...meaning you dont have to follow what the NFPA says. My Dept down in FL follows what the NFPA recommends only beacuse in court, a good lawyer will question why you didnt follow a standard set of guidelines.

So to Vistafd 126 and loopy31, according to what i've been taught, a secondary siren is not nessicary. I however am all for the FD sirens, i just enjoy the sound.

Again someone please correct me if I am wrong. I would hate to spread this false info to others.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Someone correct me if im wrong, please, but it is my understanding (through what ive been taught down here in FL)  that the NFPA are guidelines...meaning you dont have to follow what the NFPA says. My Dept down in FL follows what the NFPA recommends only beacuse in court, a good lawyer will question why you didnt follow a standard set of guidelines.

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Isn't that good enough reason? There's a former chief from upstate NY in prison for not following NFPA guidelines!

So to Vistafd 126 and loopy31, according to what i've been taught, a secondary siren is not nessicary. I however am all for the FD sirens, i just enjoy the sound.

Again someone please correct me if I am wrong. I would hate to spread this false info to others.

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No, you're not wrong.

[Graham26 8]

Doesnt Rye still have ther horn? What departments actually use ther horns? Sometimes from my house i hear one but its definatly not Ryes but doesn;t harrison have one??????

[Graham26 8]

Rye used ther horn for school snow delays and closings, sometimes a long time ago when i was a little wittle kidde

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Any lawyer will question why you didn't follow NFPA. In NY the precedence was set when Alan J. Baird III was convicted and found liable in civil court for the death of Bradley Golden in a Live Fire Training incident (notice I didn't say accident) where NFPA 1403 Standard for Live Fire Training, was not followed. It was argued successfully against him that he and the department didn't follow that NFPA STANDARD, big difference between a guidleline.

The NFPA is the nationally accepted practice of the fire service. What is comical is how many departments pick and choose what NFPA standards they want to follow. For instance we are hearing arguments for maintaining a noise nuisance based on some statements about NFPA. But NFPA also requires physicals, a respiratory protection program, rehab and you name it but I don't see many arguing for those.

[Guest EMSCOMM80]

EMSCOMM80,

I am not sure where you are a member, but where we work, the public wants to know where their tax dollars are going.  They are very critical of us, saying that we are a "small community" and we don't need the a large fire department with all the equipment that we have.  Them hearing the siren, gives them a sense of how busy we actually are.  It means a lot to our members that they get this justification.  They think we are just members to have a place to hang out.  I'm sure it make little sense to you and a lot of people, but when you get verbally attacked in your town as a volunteer you want some justification.

TO VISTAFD 126, I believe that you are right that NFPA requires a secondary way of notifcation for calls.  The pager is one, and the siren is another.  I do understand that you can get text messaging from the county as a secondary means, but if 60 Control is not your primary dispatch, then you do not have this option.  We get dipatched by our local police department, so we don't have the text messaging option.

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Loopy31 –

I understand your line of thinking…although I don’t agree with it. The public barely notices when your siren blows, unless they live right next to it…even then, it rarely dawns on them that you actually have an alarm. …it is just a nuisance to them.

I agree with you that the taxpayers like to know how their money is spent. But, do you think when the siren is sounding they are thinking to themselves; “That’s the sound of my tax dollars being well spent.†…I think not! Regardless of how many alarms your department responds to (or in this case, how many times your siren goes off), the public will ALWAYS criticize aspects of the service you provide. Get used to it!

“They are very critical of us, saying that we are a "small community" and we don't need the a large fire department with all the equipment that we have.â€

-- I hate to be the one to break this to you… a lot of departments in small communities have a good deal of equipment that they don’t need! …and even worse, a lot of departments in small communities have equipment that the majority of their members have NO CLUE what they are used for, or how to use them. So the public isn’t too far off base with that comment in some instances. <I stress that this is only in some instances… before everyone is ready to lynch me!>

Now back to our topic….

Bottom line, although sirens were once the best method of notification for alarms, they are not anymore. If you want to keep your sirens as a reserve, or for major incidents, so be it. But for use on every alarm, just for traditions sake, or to let the community know how many calls you are going on…give it up. If you need an alternate type of notification, try text messaging! Just because your department is dispatched by the police, does not mean you can not introduce the system to them. Text messaging is more effective, and cheaper to operate and maintain. (the taxpayers in your community should like that)

[Guest]

I agree with ALS firefighter. I'm big on tradition but that should not be the reason for using a siren. On the flip side I do think the sirens should be used within decent hours. In Somers there are a number of "dead" spots.

[Jared1979 19]

Rye has a fire horn it is electronic, Harrison has a horn a diaphone, however it is out of service that why I have not heard it blow at 6pm

[Guest skubasam]

Somers - Used between 0600-2100 x 2 rounds for EMS calls that haven't been filled by second page, 4 rounds for ALL fires regardless of the hour, 1 round for a daily noon test and additional signals for disaster notification etc.

[Guest lcff791]

Hi Snoop as you stated before Insurance is one reason many department my still use the sirens. When Lake Carmel went to lower our ISO rating, we were told we needed at least two means of alerting our members. Since we're able to dispatch ourselfs and Putnam Co. had a dispatch center. and a fall back plan, that gave us the second means of warning. So it helped lower our rating from 9 to 5/9. hope that help a little. Some days I miss tha old siren. With the number of ambulance call the department goes on now, I'm glad we don't have it. No siren at the new station. Have a great day

Horns probably should have quiet hours. From 10:0PM until 8:00 AM are standard "quiet hours " under most noise ordinances for construction work, amplified music etc. Now with pagers their is no reason to wake up a whole town in the middle of the night for a false alarm.

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[JBE 328]

Just put a new one up at the new Firehouse. Maybe something like Carmels old horn that could wake the dead from 5 miles away. On a good night you could hear that thing from my old house on Towners clear as a bell.

[Guest]

The horns are a good second alert. Thats all there is to it. Nothing wrong with a back-up. Its not simply for tradition and that said, tradition is a good thing ALS, so long as it doesn't get in the way of newer, progressive and truly better practices.

[RZ502 12]

In Mount Kisco, we still have our old school horn and it goes off all the time. In the days before we swithced to 60 Control and the cops still dispatched we could tell what side of town, the call and the nature such as residential of comercial alarm. Now we have a 3 call which is a minor alarm and a 5 call for full dept. responce. The horn helps when you dont have your pager. I personally like Bedford Hills Siren though.

[roeems87 0]

Does anyone know if Yonkers ever (I'm sure long in the past--if ever) used horns for any reason? There is a "fire horn" located right by my house (just off Grandview Blvd in 314's first due). I'm not sure if it's an old "air raid" siren or some other kind of public address system, but it definitely could be a fire horn as well...

Anyone know anything about this?

[Guest]

Does anyone know if Yonkers ever (I'm sure long in the past--if ever) used horns for any reason? There is a "fire horn" located right by my house (just off Grandview Blvd in 314's first due). I'm not sure if it's an old "air raid" siren or some other kind of public address system, but it definitely could be a fire horn as well...

Anyone know anything about this?

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The Colonial Heights section (near Grandview) of Yonkers still has the old air raid sirens up. I don't think they were ever used as fire horns. However, i'm sure at one point Yonkers had some sirens strategically placed.

[dadbo46 50]

In the volunteer days in Mt. Vernon, the horns would blow two rounds for a box alarm. You would then look up in your "little red book" where the alarm was and respond accordingly. Actually, my Grandmother knew where the box was and would tell me before I could look it up. Eventually I caught on on how to do this.

If it was a 2nd or subsequent alarm, one round of the box would be blown followed by single rounds of the assigned companies.

If it was a minor alarm, two rounds of the company signal would be blown.

Oh....and if there was no school, it would be music to my ears to hear 4 rounds of "9 - 9 - 9" blown.

Edited December 16, 2005 by dadbo46