FireMedic049

There's a certain level of irony in advocating for a "more relaxing and better test experience" when discussing a test used to get hired into a high stress/high pressure job like police officer or firefighter.

There's a certain level of irony in advocating for a "more relaxing and better test experience" when discussing a test used to get hired into a high stress/high pressure job like police officer or firefighter.

There's a certain level of irony in advocating for a "more relaxing and better test experience" when discussing a test used to get hired into a high stress/high pressure job like police officer or firefighter.

Exactly what do you mean by "well rounded" and what sort of "important modern skills" are you talking about?

1) That would violate the federal court mandate for 900 of the approximatly 1150 jobs in Westchester
2) But the test already does that and it would violate the federal court mandate for 900 of the approximatly 1150 jobs in Westchester
3) You think the computer part will reduce cost (it will and I agree it should go that way) this would increase the cost dramatically.
4) The majority of our latest hires all have degrees and most are in their 30's. They perform better on the test and even on the physical agility (seams they listen to the suggestions on how to improve times).
5) That would violate the federal court mandate for 900 of the approximatly 1150 jobs in Westchester
6) see #3 above
7) Its not, you still have to outscore on the physical agility test
8) True, but then we should have entry tests for all EMT classes, there are a lot of "kids" that cant pass that class also.
9) That would violate the federal court mandate for 900 of the approximatly 1150 jobs in Westchester
10) That might help individules but the test is about hiring the best for the department, not about improving the individuals ability to pass. Also if I worked my a** off to score well and you sat back, why should you be rewarded?

There's a certain level of irony in advocating for a "more relaxing and better test experience" when discussing a test used to get hired into a high stress/high pressure job like police officer or firefighter.

Exactly what do you mean by "well rounded" and what sort of "important modern skills" are you talking about?

I don't know off hand. I haven't had the opportunity to read the full standard yet.
Regardless of what it says on that, requiring the ability to do so pretty much flies in the face of the safety push we're talking about and it isn't necessarily in the best interests of good patient care. Without some sort of revolutionary change in ambulance design, there's pretty much no practical way to securely transport 2 litter bound patients while affording EMS personnel the ability to care for them while seated and using seatbelts or other such device.
From a patient care perspective and 20 years of experience, if one of the patients requires ALS care whether due to specific injury/illness necessitating intervention or due to treatment protocol, you need at least 2 providers in the back otherwise patient care for one or both suffers. Accounting for a 2nd provider to be seated and restrained further complicates the situation.
With the exception of some volunteer based ambulance services, having more than 2 providers on an ambulance is not a common practice. So where does that 2nd provider in the back during transport come from? Another ambulance, the FD? If you're pulling from another ambulance, then why not just put the 2nd patient in that unit? Is pulling from the FD even a viable option - do they have a trained provider to spare?
IMO, I don't think we are in need of some sort of radical change in ambulance design. The current basic ambulance design is working pretty good and just needs to evolve some. The industry and designs are already evolving and moving towards the "work station" type set up for interior design. The biggest thing that really needs addressed is keeping the provider seated and restrained as much as possible. Developing a crashworthy seating & restraint system that is able to move side to side, forward and back, and pivots in order for the provider to adjust their position relative to the patient and care being provided without having to unbuckle would go a long, long way to accomplishing that.

What I find interesting is that NFPA started working on their ambulance standard before the feds anounced dropping the KKK standard. I was at the Fire Department Safety Officers annual Vehicle Maintenance and Design Conference 2 years ago and they had a whole section on this. They descused the reasons for NFPA getting involved in this standard. They listed a few reasons:
1) The IAFC (International association of fire chiefs) requested it because "a majority of FD's buy ambulances" and "we place our firefighters in fire trucks that meet minimum safe standards, but into ambulances that are very questionable".
2) The ambulance manufacturers (three of the largest were at the conference taking questions) asked NFPA for a standard.
Bill, maybe if EMS had stepped up to the plate years ago they would have a standard, but we have so many examples of where EMS cant or wont step up, you should not be surprised.
I worked in a lot of different ambulances over the years and today how unsafe most were is amazing to me. The 2 driving forces in ambulance design has always been; High end for fire service units and dirt cheap for commercial transport. Yes there are others in the mix, but its a small percentage.

The discussion really isn't off course. Part of the original post asked about a "replacement" for the KKK specs in addition to discussing "better ambulance design". I pointed out that the NFPA had already developed an ambulance standard that is just being rolled out. The validity of the NFPA creating that standard was then called into question by you and that was addressed. I guess you didn't like the answer since you are asking that we get back on course with the thread.
So, if you wish to discuss better ambulance design, then stop bashing the NFPA and the fire service's involvement in EMS and start talking about ambulance design.

I would tend to agree, but the reality is that this pretty much already exists with medical command, treatment protocols and state oversight agencies.However, the fact remains that the fire service is a major player in the world of EMS care and transport and therefore should have a seat at the table for any discussion regarding ambulance standards. Right, because for the most part the PD doesn't staff and operate fire engines, but firefighters do staff and operate ambulances every day.

1) So where is your proof? Everything you have referenced is failure of comunities to not follow NFPA standards. Which industry is that? "the fire service"? If thats the case you have barely scratched the surface of what NFPA does. They have 1,000's of standards, but only about 3 dozzen that have anything to do with the fire service.
2) Yes we do and why? Is because of NFPA or the lack of effort from NFPA? No its because of the U.S. Constitution. Every American has the right to keep the government out of their home (where most fires occur). The Fire Department (read government) may not come into my home and tell me not to do things that are unsafe, or to mandate many things that might save me, my family and my property, They can in most other developped countries. I have the right to be a horder, the right to run extension cords under rugs, the right to leave unattended candles burning, the right to go shopping with food cooking on the stove, but in other countries the FD can come in and fine me for it.
Also in the U.S. our culture is so concerned with short term gain, that we do not worry about next month or next year. Developers fight to not put in safety features to save $$, municipalities want short term development so they generally will let the developpers get away with it.
Also, the US builds most homes of wood, and lots of void spaces. Much of the devellopped countries use NONCOMBUSTABLE materials with few voids.
3) Yes we have a horrible firefighter death rate, but of the of the 81 firefighter LODD in 2012 only 22 were killed during fires, cant really blame NFPA for failure to stop at intersections when responding or heart attacks (since we lead the rest of the world in those also). Its also interesting that 4 of the 5 states (including NY) with the highest LODD have the least training requirements and the lowest use of NFPA standards.
4) Can you define ho-hum? NFPA 703 Standard for Fire Retardent Coatings has been around since 1979 and has been updated 8 times since.
The FIT device is still very contraversal and is unlikely you will see a standard anytime soon since you need to use it in an unihabited space. Currently extingushing systems are either fixed (and warn occupants to get out if hazardous) or are extingushers, which require an operator to be able to see the seat of the fire, FIT is neither.
5) So thats NFPA's fault? NFPA standards require both. If your village, town, city, county or state refuse to follow the standard why is it NFPA's fault? Some communities in NYS wanted mandatory sprinklers. Did the FASNY lobby for this...NO. The state said no...because the building industry lobbied against it. What about inspections in new constructions?
It is required by NYS that ALL new construction must be inspected, so either it is or the municipality is violating state law. Now does your fire dept do this? Most FD's do not do inspections! Is this NFPA's fault?
And we already covered the constitutionality of inspecting existing properties.
6) You see little proof, because clearly you have no idea what NFPA does. While I see some issues with some of their process, it is far from disfunctional. In places that fully accept the Standards, there fire loss is close to zero. To bad most communities and the state are more concerned with many other issues.

The academy loses 10% as a general rule. Take a class of full of candidates who are MUCH older and in poorer physical condition, add a lot of people who couldn't get on because they didn't meet the qualifications 14 years ago and you have trouble. Who's surprised at the drop out rate?
On top of that you have EMS promotees who have a job to go back to if they don't feel the academy is working out for them. I'm not taking a shot at EMS promotees by the way, I work with a bunch and they're good.
2 of 20 open competitive candidates failing is in line with the 10% drop.
Topping off everything is the rhetoric from FIREFIGHTER Coombs. Academy instructors are a hard working lot who, I can assure you, do not single out anyone for anything other than their abilities as candidates. If candidates are failing out of the academy it is because they're not fit for this job and the academy is doing its part to protect people who don't belong from entering a dangerous job and also protecting those of us who work here by insuring that we are surrounded by similarly capable firemen.
If only groups like the Vulcan's would advocate for improved preparation and quality of candidates instead of making excuses for those who can't hack it. When they do this, they undermine and short-change the achievements of those who gave it their all and made it through.

Your kind of late to the game with this post.
It's been known for months now that the KKK spec is soon to be extinct. It should be noted though that the KKK spec was created as an ambulance purchasing specification for the federal government, not as a manufacturing standard for the ambulance industry. As I understand it, basically if a manufacturer wanted to build ambulances for Uncle Sam, their unit had to meet the KKK spec in order to get the work. Over the years it was pretty much the manufacturing standard by default since nothing else existed.
Many EMS agencies have been moving away from the traditional open end bench seat configuration for several years now.
The NFPA has been working on an ambulance standard for the past few years (NFPA 1917). It either just went into effect this year or will be shortly.
I recall reading a couple months ago that there's work being done from the EMS side of things on some sort of standard since the NFPA standards are viewed as "Fire" standards and not necessarily applicable for non-fire-based EMS agencies.

The fact is all times should be measured as they all have statistical significance in evaluating performance of the various components of the system.

The fact is all times should be measured as they all have statistical significance in evaluating performance of the various components of the system.

The fact is all times should be measured as they all have statistical significance in evaluating performance of the various components of the system.

The fact is all times should be measured as they all have statistical significance in evaluating performance of the various components of the system.

Right, because the Republican Presidential options have been so much better in recent years and their prospective candidates for 2016 at this point look to be so appealing.
While I'm willing to admit that he hasn't fully lived up to my expectations on a number of issues, the far greater "mistake" was electing the ultra conservative tea party candidates to Congress. We already had a strong unwillingness from the Republicans to work with President Obama on any issue, something we've never experienced at the level it's been since he took office. If that wasn't bad enough, now we have a small faction of Republicans gleefully trying to inflict great harm on the nation based on ideology rather than sound policy and an unwillingness from the rest of the Republicans in Congress to stand up to them and stop the madness.

Right, because the Republican Presidential options have been so much better in recent years and their prospective candidates for 2016 at this point look to be so appealing.
While I'm willing to admit that he hasn't fully lived up to my expectations on a number of issues, the far greater "mistake" was electing the ultra conservative tea party candidates to Congress. We already had a strong unwillingness from the Republicans to work with President Obama on any issue, something we've never experienced at the level it's been since he took office. If that wasn't bad enough, now we have a small faction of Republicans gleefully trying to inflict great harm on the nation based on ideology rather than sound policy and an unwillingness from the rest of the Republicans in Congress to stand up to them and stop the madness.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.
However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.
I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.
We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.
We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.
And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.
However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.
I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.
We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.
We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.
And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.
However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.
I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.
We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.
We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.
And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.
However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.
I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.
We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.
We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.
And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.
However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.
I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.
We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.
We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.
And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.