Dinosaur

If you're suggesting that a possible fire in a 5+ story building shouldn't get at least 3 engines and 2 trucks, I'd have to say you're missing the point. Unless it's an unoccupied commercial (and how many of them are commercial, they're almost all residential), you're going to need every bit of that manpower to fight any kind of fire and do searches, ventilation, etc. At best, 3&2 will get you 20 guys if they're all fully staffed with qualified FF. How many guys get used on an initial attack on the 3rd floor of a 5 story walk-up like the old apartment buildings and "brownstone" style buildings all over the Hudson Valley? I'm guessing there aren't alot of extra bodies. Now throw in people on the fire escapes or in need of actual rescue by ladder and you're out of personnel with full rigs. As wraftery said, we have to stop playing catch-up and start getting ahead!

What's the difference? Did I strike a nerve or are you just that paranoid? For the record, I was and am referring to all the departments that share these common problems! North and South of 287 in and outside of NY. There's only one department in Westchester that comes close to having the resources or organization of the FDNY. Get over it. There are lots of issues in all our departments. Turning a blind eye to them won't make them go away.

It's bad enough that the public hates us and politicians want to dismember the emergency services but we're fighting with each other too? Stupid stupid stupid!

As I read the IA about the 4th alarm with maydays in the Bronx yesterday (thanks ryang), I am confronted with strong concerns and reservations about how that would happen anywhere in the suburbs. This is not a paid/volunteer issue. This is a major incident response issue because no matter what your pay status, we've cultivated a recipe for failure in this region with absolutely no standardization, abysmal leadership/management training programs and experience levels, and no means to effectively coordinate the response. Some are probably already cracking their knuckles and gearing up for a keyboard battle but before you do, take a deep breath and let me finish my thought. Yesterday in the Bronx, a fire in ordinary buildings that we have all over our suburbs, resulted in the initial response of more than 40 "interior" (and I hate that distinction but more on that later) firefighters (4 E, 1 S, 3 L, 1 BC, S/C 1/1, plus 10-75 response). How many of our departments can honestly say we can put that many qualified, trained, and equipped FF on the road in the first three minutes? Within five minutes, the 2nd alarm results in another TWO DOZEN fully equipped FF responding. All from the same agency, with the same training, SOP's, equipment, and leadership. Wow, who can beat that? SIXTY-FIVE fully qualifed FF in five minutes with an appropriate span of control and properly trained supervisors for each resource. Imagine that? I'm sure that some will argue that you don't need 65 FF for a job like that and they can do it in their agency with far fewer resources but my point is wouldn't it be nice to know that you have that many qualified guys at your disposal in a staging area a few blocks away and not 20 minutes and a dozen dispatches later? Now, the other shoe drops. With all those resources already on scene and operating. With several highly experienced and qualified chiefs running the show, there's a collapse and multiple maydays. What would you do as the IC? What would you do as the attack officer supervising the missing FF? Do you have training for that scenario? Do you have a pre-plan for that? Are there SOP's for the actions of everyone on the fireground when it does happen (and regrettably it will happen)? In the Bronx, it resulted in the response of another SEVENTY-FIVE firefighters/company officers with at least another half dozen very experienced chief officers and support resources up the wazoo. All this was coordinated by the County communications center (FDNY Bronx Radio). It wasn't the local police desk trying to coordinate all the requests from the field while answering the switchboard and trying to dispatch seventy different resources. It wasn't a dozen different PSAP's all doing it their own way. It was part of a plan! (Some will undoubtedly argue that it isn't a good plan or it is overkill or whatever but my point is there is a plan and a standardized response!). The chief officers that handled this fire probably have at least 12-15 years of experience as an officer backed up and supported by alot of training, drills and exercises. (FDNY has one of the elaborate exercise programs I've ever seen). What do we have? What do we require of our officers? How do we get them the experience they need for this type of incident? How experienced are they? Are there any SOP's so dispatch knows what to do when the mayday is transmitted? The FDNY response and resources is without question unique but how would we handle this kind of response? In a simple 3 story frame house fire that spread to similar exposures. This wasn't a high-rise. This wasn't a big factory. This was a row of buildings like almost any town in the Hudson Valley, Fairfield, or north Jersey. It's time to stop the petty bickering and organize. If we won't consolidate we should at least agree on training, equipment, and response policies so when the other shoe drops on you there's a fighting chance for the trapped members!!! It's 2012. The time for 90+ different dispatch points in Westchester is long gone We need a single coordinated 911 center for police fire and EMS in every county with properly trained professional 911 call-takers and dispatchers doing their jobs. Put the ego and attitide and bravado aside and start lobbying for what is best for not just now but the future!

This is a great topic and one that's long overdue. Unfortunately our culture is breeding a stagnant workforce that will spend more time watching TV or surfing the 'net than actually exercising. Case in point, I'm here right now instead of out on my bike that is collecting dust in my basement. The very nature of our business is working against us also. The hurry to the call and hurry home doesn't afford us any opportunity to workout or get some exercise at the firehouse (if equipment is there to workout on). It's sad but true - we're our own worst enemies and will avoid doing anything aerobic at all costs. Some skip the physicals or get them pencil whipped so they can keep doing what they want and completely miss the danger signs. Time for us to be more vigilant about our own and breed a new crop of FF that think fitness is part of the job!

I'm fascinated by that statistic. What exactly did 109 departments do at this fire? How much did they each send? Did they all actually operate or is that back-fill and coverage? Without knowing exactly what resources were committed/operating, that's a very hollow stat for me.

Cause Haz-Mat, Tech Rescue, and Field Comm all get big fancy trucks! What's so cool about nomex pants and shirts and a bundle of rakes?

If things turn on you and you're caught in a bad spot, you need more than wishful thinking and the way most of our local departments operate, that's all they've got. I think we're on the same page that nomex is the way to go and you need to have the right training and other equipment also. How many departments have and train on emergency shelters for the wildland firefighter? They're not SCBA and they're not a cure-all but they beat the hell out of nothing. Departments invest tons of money on apparatus (like brush trucks) and bailout kits, etc. but how many actually train and equip their FF for fighting fires like we're seeing this week? Or last month at Camp Smith. In that terrain, if the fire got away from them or caught a bad wind, they'd have been in a world of trouble. Good idea - a big cache of regional equipment and a whole lot of local T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G!!!!

Any rundown on the personnel and equipment operating at the Ridge Fire?

Bunker gear is designed for structural firefighting. Not brush/wildland firefighting. Why wouldn't you require the right PPE for the job? Jeans and long sleeves may be comfortable but they're not going to protect you from fire if it turns on you or conditions change. You're right. We focus more on apparatus then we do on other important aspects of the job. All it is is nomex material? Damn straight. It beats the hell out of jeans and t-shirts and I've seen too many FF wearing that at brush fires. Your comments are not from a wildland FF. I'm sure if you had more wildland experience you wouldn't be so dismissive of the right PPE for the job. http://www.wildfirelessons.net/documents/Ash%20Pit%20Safety%20Advisory.pdf http://www.nwcg.gov/general/memos/nwcg-008-2010.html http://www.nwcg.gov/pms/pubs/410-1/chapter01.pdf Does anyone actually carry fire shelters or have real wildland firefighting training? Just like everyone here criticizes those who do structural firefighting without the right training and equipment, I can't believe that anyone really thinks it's OK to do wildland firefighting in jeans.

A countywide system is possible and it could involve volunteers and career members. The old guard has to give up the fiefdoms and start recognizing that consolidation will be a good thing for the future.

How much water do those yellow "aqua jak"'s hold? Looks alot more comfortable than an old indian can.

This is my point. Cogs can pontificate all he wants about other definitions for volunteer, the volunteer fire service for years has associated it with no pay. To call a person a paid volunteer is just confusing to the public. Cogs, you may understand it perfectly but the average local resident isn't reading your blogs on the subject. Why can't we just call them "paid members" or "call firefighters" or something else so we don't confuse the point? I'm not trying to start a career volunteer issue here, I just think the term is an oxymoron and confuses people who don't understeand us anyway.

I mean no disrespect to the members of the Yorktown Heights FD but there is no more need for a third firehouse in Yorktown than there is a need for 59 fire departments in Westchester County and 13 in Putnam and 37 in Dutchess...

Not to hijack this thread or anything but I think Mexico has made great progress in reclaiming their land and then some. Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Mount Kisco, Brewster, Port Chester, Spring Valley, and all the other places overrun with illegal Mexican and Central/South American aliens.

It is disgraceful that these clowns are allowed to throw real titles around and the press actually entertains their bulls#. If the vehicles aren't registered, the PD should seize them and shut down their charade once and for all. If they are registered, they should be seized for impersonating emergency workers. Another farce that makes us all look foolish.

I used to hike up there back in the day. The front face of that mountain is pretty rugged terrain. Glad everyone is safe. Great pictures as always Frank!

Taken from an article about another disgrace in the fire service. Why the hell can't we call it what it is? He's not a paid volunteer. He's a part-time paid employee. This paid volunteer crap is totally ridiculous and stands in the way of true progress.

Egos are the single biggest obstruction to evolution in the fire service today.

Was that an active industrial park or an abandoned building? Given the temperatures/wind, where did the IC locate the ICP? I can't imagine just standing outside for hours in teens and single digits.

Instant a$$ho)e. Just add ALCOHOL!

Coverage was on News12 but I didn't really listen to it. Sorry.

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond. I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry: So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

This was discussed in another thread and there was a general sentiment that volunteers should go back to their families instead of doing this at an activated alarm call or other non-fire response. I can only hope a lot of new officers and senior guys read this and remember the dinosaurs that broke them in! Thanks, Frank!

But how much is as much as possible? I've been pondering that so let's consider the "weekly" drill night. Figure it's 3 hours so 2 hours is actually spent doing something meaningful, the rest is set-up, breakdown, admin, etc.. That's 8 hours a month to train. Factor in the required stuff - OSHA, Haz-Mat, physicals, fit-testing, etc. at just 8 hours (and I think we'd all agree that's not enough) and you're left with 88 hours. Since nobody shows up 100% of the time I figure about 75% or a whopping 66 hours of training per year for the average volunteer FF. Since most chief's or training officer's have their own "pet" topics, you can bet that some topics get more attention than others too. With initial attack, water supply, ground ladder ops, aerial ops, rescue, survival, extrication, rescue, bail-out, pump ops, all competing for this critical time how can you possibly remain proficient at anything? Before everyone gets their knickers in a twist this isn't directed at anyone and is an a-v-e-r-a-g-e. Of course I know you did twice this amount of time already this year. Looking at the average career FF. They may not get nearly enough real OJT but they're going to be able to get much more training. If the department has a really good MTO, they may get that much training in a month. More likely however, if they work 2080 hours a year (an average based on 40 hours a week) they could get 40 hours of training and/or or on the job experience in a single month. So the average career guy can get 500 hours of training in a year. This isn't a paid/volunteer issue. It's a matter of simple math. 10 minutes, one pencil and one sheet of paper to figure out this math. Career guys will get more training and OJT experience than a volunteer because they're there for 40 hours a week. Great topic.