Dinosaur

A countywide system is possible and it could involve volunteers and career members. The old guard has to give up the fiefdoms and start recognizing that consolidation will be a good thing for the future.

A countywide system is possible and it could involve volunteers and career members. The old guard has to give up the fiefdoms and start recognizing that consolidation will be a good thing for the future.

While ISO does not use the terms career and volunteer, the MAJOR distinction they use is onduty (in the fire station) and oncall (at home, work or anywhere but the firehouse) and yes volunteer depts are rated the same as career IF they respond with inhouse crews 24/7.
Now while all the things you listed as going into the rating are true, the single biggest point catagory is personnel and its the only catagory ISO has that is unlimited. ISO wants a minimum of 2 engines and 1 ladder (or service company) on every fire call and at a minimum they want 4 firefighters (&or officers) per rig plus an IC. Now if you respond with onduty personnel you get 1.0 points for each, if you are using "oncall" members you get 0.33 points for each. so to get the same personnel rating you need 36 firefighters (&/or officers) + IC.
The 2nd biggest point area is for training and the way they calculate the training is they take every members hours and average them over the number of members. Since most departments do not meet the 290 hours per year per memebr average for inservice training and ISO will include the VFD's 75 y/o active members annual training in the average (even if they no longer fight fire) you are fighting a big uphill battle as well. Another component of the training requirement that is not commonly performed by VFD's is Fire Inspection & Prefire planning of all commercial and multi dwellings in its district.
Also, ISO requires a minimum of 240 hours for new fire fighter training and 40 hours of new driver training.
So 48% of the Fire Dept. ISO rating is for personnel & training. You can not make up for a poor score here with shinny trucks.
Would you also consider the 1,100 paid "housemen" in Long Island VFD's to be part of this?
1) I agree that the priority of the leadership should be the public's welfare, I find this is commonly not the priority. Last month I was sitting in a public hearing where the chairman of the Fire board publicly told the mayor and council that they did not want the anyone outside the FD to know how bad ISO said they were, in fact he felt it was none of the publics buisness to know. I wonder if he would have said that if he knew the cameras were running.
2) Do you include LOSAP in your incentive programs that created an environment in which that competency has improved? I know there are many volunteers here who have posted here that they hurt the depts more than they help.
Wow lets compare apples with oranges:
New City (a Hamlet within Clarkstown)
Population: 35,168
15.6 miles, 2254 people per mile
Income 2x state average at $111,747
Per capita income $46,000
Over 50% have BA degrees, 91% HS Deplomas
20% minority, 70% married
Unemployment (3/2011) 6.5% - Below state average
Hackensack
Population: 42,839
4.12 miles 10,398 people per mile
Income $59,504 (20% below state average).
Per capita $31,523
29% have BA degrees, 79% HS Deplomas
67% minority 42% married
Unemployment (3/2011) 10.1% - Above state average
Now lets compare Fire Departments:
New City: 2 eng, 1 TL, 1 tanker, 1 brush
Ambulance: No
EMS 1st Response: No
Hazmat: No, (provided by county)
TRT: No, (provided by county)
Hackensack: 5 eng, 2 lad, 2 amb, 1 rescue, 2 TRT units
Ambulance: Yes
EMS 1st Response: Yes
Hazmat: Yes
TRT: Yes
Now lets not forget that New City is a Hamlet within the Town of Clarkstown. Clarckstown has a population of 82,777
And has in addition to the New City Fire Dept: The Central Nyack FD, Congers FD, Nanuet FD, Rockland Lake FD, Valley Cottage FD and the West Nyack FD. Plus EMS provided by additional services and not the FD's.
So the New City FD spends $3,000,000 Less than HFD. They are not providing the same service level and the community is a very different type of community. I do not know how much all of those other FD's end up costing, but $3 million is sounding cheap.
Now what really counts to the tax payer is what the pay for service each year: The median property tax in New City is in 2009 was $9,015 and in Hackensack it was $6,430. I think I would rather pay $2,500 les per year.
Note: I am not trying to say anything negative about either dept. just they are clearly apples and oranges.
LOL...recently was 20 years ago. This report had more incorrect info than anything I have ever read. The money was based on the replacing 100% of the volunteers with career. So in one case a 150 member volunteer dept covering 1.5 square miles with 2 engines, 1 ladder & 1 rescue would need to build a new career fire station, buy 2 eng, 1, lad & 1 rescue (even though the rigs & station were owned by the village) and then hire 150 firefighters. Now multiply this by the 2,000 VFD's in the state and what a shock it would cost $2.9 billion.
Now if we dropped the number only in half (75 career), that would give us an onduty shift of 15 members 24/7. Thats more than double the shift of every career dept covering this size community. Based on these 2 sentences, the FASNY study is inflated by $1.45 Billion and that does not include the 2,000 new fire stations and 5,000 new apparatus they think the tax payers would have to buy. They also fail to mention the costs of LOSAP, House men, meals and other existing costs that would no longer be needed.

I must admit I find a certain amount of humor/irony with this post. You're stating that "titles" are essentially "irrelevant" and there's no reason to get worked up over the term "volunteer" when a person being compensated still falls within FLSA definitions. However, when the term "professional" is used to describe a career firefighter - a use completely consistent with the definition of "professional" in any dictionary and most civilians too - the volunteer fire service gets all worked up about it and feels slighted.
So why the apparent double standard?

NYCRR Part 426
You are right. But how many other services are people willing to pay for without any knowledge of that service? When you need a new Doctor, do most people look to see if they are qualified? What about getting references? or a 2nd opinion?
How many taxpayers have any clue if the local FD has the personnel, equipment & training needed to get the job done? How many Mayors, Council members, Managers have a clue?
How many firefighters know if their depts is worth what ever it costs?
How many firefighters even know what the cost of fire protection is?
The tax payers also rely on the FD leadership to insure that legal requirements and regulations (including minimum training standards) are meet, but we all know that some depts do it and others do not.
So when the public see's "100% Volunteer" on the side of the engine, they should know that the dept. of labor says they are volunteers, even if they are paid on call?

I agree, but that would make a lot of NYS "members of fire departments" nothing more than lawn furniture wearing turn outs. If they do not meet the standards they are not firefighters.

Sorry...but no...not accurate at all. You might be by some basic standard be a "firefighter" but there are caveats within that realm simply put. This isn't to rattle cages..but it is what it is. I see and have seen all levels of "firefighters" in my experience as a professional firefighter, volunteer firefighter, fire instructor, EMT, Paramedic etc. And the bottom line there is a difference. All this nonsense of paid "volunteer" has me literally cracking up. Take any other person who volunteers..for example most hospitals have volunteers...if they in turn compensate for time...they are then PER DIEM EMPLOYEES, not paid volunteers. Spare me the antics with titles. Call it what it is. And the biggest blaring thing that no one has touched...if you are looking at now paying per call..you have a staffing issue...get off of it already and actually look at the staffing costs instead of spewing the sky is falling it will cost too much money routine. Then there is yet another issue...who becomes the gate keeper? Will there be an interview process for new EMPLOYEES? Or will it stay the same? How are you going to deal with the potential flood gates opening for those who want to make a few bucks and not take the process serious?
Saying a firefighter is a firefighter is like saying a doctor is a doctor. But if I'm sick or injured a person comes up and say "hi I'm doctor so and so.." that's great..but what kind of doctor is he? When did he go to school. Where did he go to school. How much has he practiced? Is he board certified? Is he a family practitioner? Podiatrist? Proctologist? Optimalogist? ...Or even better...what if he has nothing more then a PHD.
So lets get serious...I don't see very many apparatus with "XYZ Professional Fire Department" or "XYZ Combination Department" but I see quite a few "XYZ Volunteer Fire Department" or combination departments where the volunteer side on all their t-shirts, stickers and forms adds "volunteer" in front of the FD part. If you get paid for a service...you are no longer a volunteer period. You are hired help and masking yet a bigger issue.

Not to hijack this thread or anything but I think Mexico has made great progress in reclaiming their land and then some. Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Mount Kisco, Brewster, Port Chester, Spring Valley, and all the other places overrun with illegal Mexican and Central/South American aliens.

Day 1 - We were dispatched around 2 and pulled out at night fall. It was about a 2 miles from the staging area to the fire. Big thanks to Westchester PD for the water drops!

Time exposure photo taken by New City Fire Chief Ken Flynn of the fire as viewed from Iona Island.

Massachusetts just calls them "Call Firefighters" or something to that effect. I agree you're not a volunteer when you get paid for responding.

Well, there is a good reason. The 4WD Tahoes are not pursuit rated. When NYSP purchased the 2WD, they were dropped several inches to meet Division's standards. Without the modification, they were determined to be too great of a roll-over risk.

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond.
I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry:
So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond.
I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry:
So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

This was discussed in another thread and there was a general sentiment that volunteers should go back to their families instead of doing this at an activated alarm call or other non-fire response.
I can only hope a lot of new officers and senior guys read this and remember the dinosaurs that broke them in! Thanks, Frank!

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond.
I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry:
So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

Instant a$$ho)e. Just add ALCOHOL!

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond.
I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry:
So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

Instant a$$ho)e. Just add ALCOHOL!

Instant a$$ho)e. Just add ALCOHOL!

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond.
I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry:
So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

But my little department is MINE. I don't want to be part of a department that is 10 times bigger and busier because I may not have enough votes to stay chief and keep my car and other perks. I like being the big fish in my little pond. Why would I want to be a medium sized fish in a big pond. Or worse a little fish in a big pond.
I'm special in my department. I wouldn't be so special in a bigger one. :angry:
So what if it would save the taxpayer money and give us more guys on every call. That's not why I signed up for this!

Does the High School Football team go over what they did well and what needs to be improved? If they do not, then they will make the same mistakes over and over.
Do we question when pro ball players do it? How about when they pay millions for consultants to do? And how many of you watch any of the sports shows where they spend millions to analyze every aspect of the GAME?
WE all accept that its important to do this so that we will win the next game, but improve emergency services, why would we want to do that? Is it realy important? What if next time we lose someone because we failed to learn?
"Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" - Winston Churchill
We are seeing more litigation against chiefs for not meeting minimum standards (i.e. live burn). The standards for rural water supply were published in 1975 and have been updated every 4 years. The NYS courts have accepted NFPA as the minimum standards unless you can prove that you are using another state or nationally recognized standard.
It just a matter of time before some smart insurance company or lawyers see the fire service as an untapped pot of gold (leaf).

Why is discussing an incident backseat FF or Monday morning QB'ing? When you're in training don't you debrief every evolution to figure out what was done well and what should be done better next time? Isn't that what training is all about? Shouldn't we also do that after incidents so we can figure out what can be done better next time? You can't conduct a federally funded (grant) exercise without doing an after-action report and improvement plan; do you think they created that just to generate busy work? NO, they did it to have us identify what capabilities can/should be improved (and to fatten the wallets of consultants everywhere but that's for a different thread). That's why they call it a process.
I don't see anyone saying that they would have done it this way or that way. I see lots of questions being asked and discussions about different ways of obtaining water when you're in a non-hydrant area.
No, up there in the north county you don't have hydrants but you do have tankers and you do have other options. You should put the "city slickers" to shame with how well you can find and use alternate water sources. There are rural FD's with much higher ISO ratings than we have in Westchester with 10x the apparatus and alleged numbers of firefighters. How come rural parts of the US can do it and we can't?
Thank you . Lessons learned are critical and if you don't share them you're doing someone a great disservice. We can all learn and while to some it may seem as though it is criticism or Monday morning QB-ing, there is probably someone somewhere that is using this discussion to develop ideas for training, pre-plan initiatives, or something else that will benefit him or his department.
www.llis.gov is a website dedicated to sharing lessons learned and best practices. Check it out. Maybe it will help you or at least broaden your horizons.
We all need to get over the notion that we shouldn't or don't get second-guessed or critically evaluated in what we do. If we get riled up at a simple discussion like this we're going to fall apart when we're in a deposition or courtroom being asked very tough questions.

PLease guys, stop getting offended by these discussions. No one is saying everyone at this fire didn't break their butts to get this fire out. Simply the structure was lost and water supply was an issue. Is there anyone disputing this?? Now we have several members of this board with a lot of experience and information with solutions for these problems. Monday morning quarterbacking, after incident review, or kitchen table ball breaking does it really matter what it's called so long as its not a NIOSH Fatality Investigation Report?
Maybe South Salem never did adequately pre plan that structure, you guys wouldn't be the first to drop the ball and not adequately pre plan a known hazard within your district. I think everyone here remembers the 2007 Deutsche Bank fire in which two firefighters lost their lives because the structure had not been properly pre-planed or inspected (yes, this is an over simplification of the myriad of problems that led up to the fire, but I'm trying highlight the failures of the dept administration to protect their people and empower them to do their job efficiently and safely). Change is too often motivated by tragedy. We have the NFPA live fire training standard thanks to lives lost in Boulder Co. Chicago FD never had an official policy or training on fire escapes until this year. How many firefighters had escape ropes prior to 2005? Depts are led by people and people are fallible. The goal should always be to learn from our mistakes and not repeat them. Everyone on this board, after seeing that fire should have been at their FD looking over their poorly supplied areas and double checking to make sure there were no holes in their plans.
In Pleasantville there are areas where hydrants are more aesthetic than functional. For years the plan was monster stretches involving multiple relay pumps and multiple depts. The plan went all the way back to the days before large diameter supply and originally called for a dual 3" lay. During drills where even under ideal circumstances the stretch was awkward at best. Little things like keeping the street open became extremely labor intensive and time consuming. We switched to a tanker shuttle pre plan for these areas. The switch was certainly not easy and not without a lot of ego bruising, but it was done. We did a lot of drills on tanker ops and learned a lot of lessons the hard way that have since been clearly outlined by a few members on this board (thanks for nothing guys). Use these forums as the resource that they are.