LayTheLine

I'm a little in the dark here. What exactly is an ambulance service unit? I'm guessing it doesn't transport. It's marked Ambulance and has lights. Is it an MCI vehicle or a re-stock vehicle of some sort?

This reminds me of the talk of Haz-Mat responses back in the 1980's when departments were just getting involved in Haz-Mat responses. There were extreme ideologies back then as well. Some thought it was inevitable and something the fire service could not avoid. Others thought it was pure craziness and the barn doors should be kept shut if there was a green cloud floating through downtown. I think that starting a Tech-Rescue team is a good idea whether its career or volunteer. What are the alternatives? Have some child fall down a well and the totally untrained towns people gather together and try to form a human chain down into the well? With that being said, proper judgement has to be used by a Haz-Mat team or a Tech Rescue team when things are beyond their capability and that comes with training. If a local Haz-Mat team got called to a train derailment and there was some really severe Ethel-Methal Bad Stuff mixing with Super-Duper Sticky Stuff and it was obvious that special teams from the production companies and a professional clean-up crew would be needed to mitigate the situation, then perhaps the best approach would be to evacuate, pull-back and try to protect the environment if able to. The same would hold true for a Tech-Rescue team. If they respond to an old excavation site to discover someone has fallen 100 feet into a 2 foot diameter hole, they may decide they need to call a professional excavating company and a professional rigging and shoring company to come in and assist. In both cases training, judgment and size-up are needed to determine, "can we handle this?" A chief wouldn't send a crew of firefighters into a fully-involved, collapsing house on a report someone was inside - same idea.

I am by no means a seasoned veteran (run a lot of medical calls & fire alarms) but the volume, pressure, and thickness of smoke coming out of the building between the 11 & 12 minute mark is the heaviest I've ever seen!

This has been a fascinating thread. I've watched the video 4 or 5 times. Many different good points were made. It proves that there is no one perfect way to attack a fire. Here's my idea, which I thought of the first time I saw the video. I would order an 1 3/4 inch stretched to the garage door. I would then order one of the upper panels on the garage door pulled down, probably a halligan & a pike pole would do the trick. I would then direct the hoseline into that opening for 30 seconds to a minute. In the confined space of the garage the fire should get knocked down quickly with the steam generated. I am a firm believer that you need to knock down the main body of fire which is generating the most heat and the most BTU's. The other advantage to this tactic is that the steam will follow the flow pattern of the smoke and hopefully will help stop the hidden fire spread. I wouldn't be too worried about steam generated affecting any victims, because either they got out of the house or are unconscious on a bed or the floor. Any steam that settles to the floor level will be somewhat cooled. After the quick application of water into the garage, I'd wait a minute or two to see what was happening with the fire and smoke. I wouldn't commit anyone yet, but I'd order the hose stretched to the front door and prepare for entry, I would order 2 ladders set up for secondary means of egress, and I'd assign someone to the back of the house to give me a report on what they see. Assuming the heavy fire in the garage was darkened down and the smoke emitting from the house began turning lighter in color, I would then order the line into the front door for fire control & extinguishment while searches and ventilation went on. If things seemed to be going well, I'd then order the garage doors removed to complete fire extinguishment in the garage.

A different set-up. I always thought GEMS was much like the fire department, police department or DPW for that matter - part of the town. I never knew it was a private organization. I wonder how it was set-up once the fire departments, police department & Back Country Ambulance gave up their ambulances to create GEMS? In fact, GFD is one of only a handful of departments that has career firefighters that don't provide first responder service to the town. Once they gave up the ambulances they gave up everything. The police does the first responder service for the town. Not saying good or bad, just a different set-up than I've ever seen before.

dwcfireman - Great posts. Please keep us updated.

Always easy to 2nd guess, but I think I would have started an exterior attack.

PCFD EN58 Please share a little more if you don't mind: 1) I believe at one point dispatch was done at the fire stations. If E58 had to respond, then E59 station would handle dispatch & vise-versa. Did that end years ago and how is dispatch handled now? 2) I read about the PCFD would put a career firefighter in Rye Brook on the overnights. Is that correct? If so, how did they manage that with only 8 firefighters? With 58 & 59 staffed 24/7 who would go to Rye Brook? 3) I didn't realize there were 16 career personnel at one time. When did they start reducing staff through attrition? Sorry if my questions aren't exactly correct or are taking you back into ancient history, but it's been 25 years since I've been in Westchester. I do remember hearing "KNEZ 923 Village of Portchester on the air transmitting Box XXXX for XXXXXXXX, E58 or E59 with 2 volunteer engines, 1 ladder & the rescue....."

nfd2004 - I can see you have your heels dug in on this one and won't budge, which is understandable with the fire service problems in your own city. Do I think that regionalization is a good idea? In many instances it is and I've stated that. Without beating a dead horse all my point was is that any regionalization should be well thought out. You helped prove my point by referring to the Northern Hudson Regional Fire Department, which sounds like a success. But if you look at the history of its creation, you'll see that the early planning and discussions began back in the early 1980's and the department became a reality on January 11, 1999. So obviuosly they took their time, thought through potential problems, garnered public support and figured out the funding. It wasn't a flip the switch over-night and off we go. Final thought: Go slow, tread lightly and make sure your citizens really are aware of what they're signing up for.

NFD2004 - I agree that fire depatments work for the citizens and not themselves. Any changes should come at the will of the people, not the fire chiefs. Perhaps I focused too much on the fire service alone. Before the citizens of any village, town, county, etc., make any changes to what the y pay for, they should be aware of what they are voting to change, be it fire, police, DPW, schools, sanitation departments, etc. Perhaps the fire service is the closest of any government service that should consider consolidation. But it should be considered with due diligence. Study the good models (Fairfax, LA County) to find out what works and what doesn't. Who will have control and will each department have a seat on the governing board? How will it be funded? Is there an escape clause? I've seen a consolidation of fire districts that went horribly wrong. I've also seen 3 towns consolidate into a school district without much thought. Town A had double the population of either Town B & C. Now the elected officials come from Town A. Town A pretty much rules the roost. The elementary schools have been consolidated, making for very long bus rides for children from Towns B & C. This could have been avoided if certain controls were in place, such as each town gets at least one seat on the school district committee, or perhaps make a central middle school & high school but allow each town to have control over their elementary schools (as is done in other regional school districts.) Once a few years go by and the elected officials turnover, there may be a whole new set of ideas of how to run any governmental department which may not be in the best interest of all members in that district (be it fire, police, school, etc.)

M' Ave - Nicely put. It's not easy in our current society to find the time to volunteer. On one hand I'm all behind the concept of consolidation and it makes sense, but I've experienced it from the other side that once you give up control of your own destiny, you'll never get it back. Sure the fire chiefs don't want to give up their kingdoms, but they aren't the ones I'm truly concerned about. I worry about the politicians. Everyone could be on board when the consolidation happens, but then 2 or 3 administrations down the road new people take over and decide on massive changes and you're like, "this isn't how it was supposed to go." You may have had 1 engine & 1 ladder in your station. When it comes time to replace the engine, the new administration decides to buy a quint and dispose of the engine and reallocate the ladder to a different station. You have two career men on duty who roll the quint on every call but there's nothing left for the responding volunteers, so they end up driving to the scene in their cars. Let's face it, part of the fun of volunteering is the ability to climb on the apparatus and respond making some noise. That's just one example of how things could change over time and the local department can do nothing about it because they are now part of a bigger entity. I never thought I would think that way or even write it, but I have seen some weird things as the years go by. On a related topic, I wonder if Mt Kisco is happy about giving up their police force? If you get inside and really study it, is what was promised really happening? I hope for them it is, but I wouldn't put it past the powers to be to decide that they are one officer short on the Evening shift for the whole Westchester County Police force. To save on over-time, they'll drop from 3 to 2 cruisers in Mt Kisco for the Eve shift and if necassary they'll divert a cruiser from the parkway if they get busy. But low and behold, the car on the parkway stops a suspicious vehicle and the closest back-up cruiser happens to be in Mt Kisco, so he jumps on the parkway and drives up to the next town as a back-up and leaves Mt Kisco with one car for 45 minutes. The people may say, "we were always happy to send a car or two mutual aid, manpower depending, but we would always keep two cars in town as a home guard. How come at times there's only one car?" I'm just using Mt Kisco as an example because I'm familiar with their situation. I hope it doesn't happen that way and I hope the people of Kisco are happy with the move. No disrespect to the WCPD. So I would say that consolidation is the way to go given the current climate, but I would say to tread lightly and get certain things in writing to protect your jurisdiction.

You can read the article without the WSJ: Go to Google and type in : Firehouses Raise Alarm Over Lack of Young Recruits It will be the second one listed in the search.

I know this will rustle the feathers of many, but think about it in terms of police. YES, Police. If a police officer is returning from training in another jurisdiction and comes across an accident, a robbery, or swerving drunk-driver, they will call it in to the either their dispatch or the jurisdiction the call is in and then render appropriate action until the arrival of the appropriate jurisdiction. The same thing would happen if they were near their own town line and saw something happen in the next jurisdiction. The questions are what did you know, when did you know it and what did you do about it? If the answer comes back to being reasonable, then I'm all for acting. As a few have pointed out, the Scarsdale incident isn't very clear as to what happened. Eastchester could have very well been out on their own smoke investigation and come across the fire. If so, report it to the jurisdiction having authority by common radio frequency or your own dispatch and then render aid in a reasonable manner until the "home team" shows up. As for any incident near a town line, I would expect that if the FDNY were out on a smoke investigation near the Yonkers city line and they came to the Westchester border and saw smoke coming out of a building and some mother out front frantically running around that they would respond and do what they could do to assist until Yonkers showed up. If I were the FDNY Battalion Chief I would initiate operations, possibly make a rescue, and when Yonkers showed up I would go to the first arriving officer and say, "FDNY is on location, we have 2 engines and 1 ladder working. We rescued a child from floor 2. We have 1 line stretched in operation on the 1st floor. This is your city and your incident - you are in-charge, what can we do to help you?" If the Yonkers officer said continue operations and we'll stretch a back-up line I'd appreciate it. Once our troops arrive we'll try to kick you free ASAP" then I'd stay and do what was REASONABLE and respect the Yonkers officer's decision. If (I don't think Yonkers would do this) he said, "This is our fire and get out of our city" then I'd say, "Fine, pack-it up boys and let's hit the road. Good-luck!" This is not rocket-science. It's about what and when you became aware of something and then what did you do about it and was the action REASONABLE to do. Working together is a wonderful thing!!

Very discouraging... This post was just showing the difference in maneuverability, no about manning and plan B and all the other complaints voiced here. I've only been on this forum for less than a year and just about every post ends up going off topic and bashing the fire service for all the problems there are. News Flash - The general public has access to this forum, it's not a password protected spot. When they read it and, more importantly, when the town fathers and managers read this they must think "what a bunch of lunk heads. No need worrying about them at town meeting because they can't agree on anything and don't get along with each other." Open discussion is good when done in a positive way. But the negative comments and the Monday Morning Quarterbacking on this forum is ridiculous. Getting back to the post: It was a very good video which I learned a lot from in 2 1/2 minutes. Yes, there are different types of ladders with advantages and disadvantages to all of them and that's a good and valid discussion. FireMedic049, thanks for explaining how the tiller becomes more of a tractor-trailer than a straight stick when the rear wheels are locked. Something else I just learned. Anyway, have at it boys, I've got better things to do!

I believe there are models of TDA's that have a pin in them. If you only have one driver and no tiller-man, the truck can be driven as a straight ladder. If you've got both drivers, you remove the pin and bingo, you're into a TDA. Best of both worlds; however, I can't speak to the maneuverability when the pin is in. Cool video anyhow. Watch it again and see how the rear of the TDA just misses the garbage can on the right side of the road. Looks like inches!!

I found the Segment call types and wow, it does seem very long and somewhat contradictory - it's probably smart if they're trying to make it more streamlined. Interesting about the studies with IVs not helping the patient. I'll have to do some research on that. Thanks!

Maybe a stupid question, but here goes: Does FDNY only send BLS to major trauma calls? From reading the thread, I get the idea that is the case. I'm not saying it's right or wrong if that is the case. In my neck of the woods, medics are always sent on major trauma calls (hand amputation, car accident, fall from 2+ stories) for two reasons: 1) On most trauma patients they do their best to get an IV line into the patient before the veins collapse and once in, they pump fluids into the patient. 2) Done less often but still an option, they administer pain medication for example if they have to realign a displaced ankle fracture where no pedal pulses are found.

Thanks S1720G for an excellent response. It clears up a few issues in my mind. I think the most reassuring thing is that it's just not some random idea. If it's been thought about over the last few years that's a good sign. It doesn't mean it will rollout problem free (how often does that happen), but at least if they try a pilot program that would make sense to work out the kinks before changing everything which may turn into chaos! Thanks!

This may be a little off topic, but in addition to this article, I saw an article about a watchdog group that wants FDNY to basically re-structure the whole department and put EMT's and Paramedics on engines and/or ladders. The above article talks about EMS Fly Cars with medics. I have an opinion and a question: First I believe it would be very difficult to make the engines in the FDNY paramedic engines. You'd have to outfit all the rigs with the medic supplies and I believe it would lead to crew instability. If it were to happen and a medic from the engine were to go to the hospital they'd be down one person. Also how easy would it be to get that person back to the fire station from the hospital if the ambulance were backed up on calls. And if the medic was a Lieutenant or Captain and had to go to the hospital on a high priority call, who becomes the officer on the engine? If this were to ever be done, a huge amount of rethinking and reshaping the whole FDNY fire and ems service would need to take place. It wouldn't be a "flip the switch" and off you go. My question is about the difference between EMT training and First Responder training in New York State? What is the level of care that an EMT can give as compared to a First Responder without an ambulance to transport? Where I come from, EMT's basically get additional training in packaging and transporting patients with the ambulance. If a First Responder were to show up at a scene with the exact medical kit that an EMT had, they could offer the same level of care (O2, AED, EPI Pen, bleeding control, gather history and medications). The EMT gets additional training in splinting and moving a patient and ambulance transport protocol. Is NY State the same? If the skill level for a First Responder and EMT is the same for initial care and NOT transport, would it be fiscally prudent to have all firefighters (10,000+) trained to the level of EMT when in reality they are just doing First Responder work? Let me end by saying that if an EMT in NY can do much more than a First Responder, then by all means upgrade them to EMTs. but it would still be a large undertaking with more training requirements, recertifications and money spent. Here's the article about the watchdog group: http://www.ufanyc.org/cmslist/admin/contents/view/23070

This is just a general statement about the fire service but I think this thread touches on it. Whether volunteer or paid, the fire service is suffering from a severe manpower shortage everywhere. Many cities run with barebone minimums due to budget problems and volunteers have trouble recruting due to the two income economy we find ourselves in. 25 years ago, departments would take it as a personal insult if they weren't called to a fire in the next town over.

Thanks for clarifying.

I'm confused after reading the posting. Is this position title going to lead to something higher than EMT but less than Paramedic? Once all training and probationary time is complete will they become EMT's or have the title EMT Medical Specialist. I'm not familiar with NY State EMT levels.

FDVA2573 - I see you're with Montrose VA Fire Dept. Can you please give me a rundown on your department. Apparatus, manning per shift, stations, etc. I've heard of you but never got the rundown on your department. Thanks in advance, LayTheLine

I found the unofficial rundown. They struck alarms quickly: 04:00 2nd Alarm on Arrival 04:05 3rd Alarm 04:26 4th Alarm 09:13 Under Control 1st: E312, 309, 310, 306 L75, 72, 71 (Fast) B2, 1 R1 Squad 11 MSU Car 6 (fire invest) 2nd: E308, 307 L70 3rd: E314 L73 Car 3 (Asst Chief) 4th: E303, 304, 313 L74 Relocations: New Rochelle E22, L12 to Yonkers Sta 12 Greenville E150 to Yonkers Sta 11 ***The news report said all on-duty members responded and the math works out. However, I assume Yonkers had some type of callback to cover reserve apparatus for coverage. If not, they only had 2 & 1 covering the city which is highly unlikely***

Anyone has a rundown on this? I would think Yonkers could fill a 4th alarm staff with their on-duty crew, but that would strip the city (as the quote says). But any rundown on the coverage units?