FD7807

Another press release

http://readme.readmedia.com/Court-decision-upholds-penalty-in-Tarrytown-worker-deaths/10352659

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1) You clearly do not know what career firefighters do. Responding to fire calls is a very small component of what we do.

2) Then their is a lot of shame out there.

3) We do train, daily, its mandated.

4) I agree that some do, but based on most of the previous comments this is 180 degrees from what is being stated.

5) We have and have been rejected by so many depts. its unbelievable. I will not go into the details or depts. But I personally have been present when chiefs and fire commissioners have made it clear that they are very content with where they are and that they do not need or want our help.

in response to #1 as a volunteer I respond to fire calls, train, participatre in fire prevention activities, work with chiefs on SOG's, coordinate department training etc. What more does a career FF do aside from EMS ? ( Not being sarcastic)

Are you even in the same discussion as the rest of us? Some of your responses seem like you don't have a clue about what we're discussing.

get your little mind away from NYS FF1 for a moment and think about the analogy I made. The PD has what you want the FD to have and there is still maj I r disparities among police departments. Sorey I am not at yoyr level mentally but I try.

I was thinking about this for a while, but you answered it so well. So do not worry about any other departments, just your own, then learn which ones you can count on and which ones you can not. So I am driving through town X and their are a half dozen depts. if I crash, I need to know which line I should slide over so I might survive?

Or Dept. X has 4 mutual aid depts. 2 it trusts and 2 it does not, what happens when their is a fire in your district and one of theirs at the same time, And you only get the 2 you do not trust. Does the trust change when your dept gets a new chief. I have often seen new chiefs change mutual aid run cards?

Or what happens when the other depts. say the dept not to trust is yours?

By that logic you would never drive yhrough Newark or South Central LA due to the fear of being carjacked. And by that logic all cities in Westchester would be equally safe because all PD have the same standards. Fact is its not all about who has the longest academy.

And if my FD is not on other towns 10-75 cards then I guess we will need to work harder and make ourself better which we do anyway.im in a department thats far from perfect but we have made a lot of positive changes

Right, just look what happened to EMS when the government got involved with that. Definitely don't want that to happen to the fire service.

Sarcastic ? and healthcare reform gun control and economicbailouts were a whirling success.

That's all well and good, but Westchester is too small and interdependent to just have everyone worry about themselves. When was the last time the was a fire (outside of the big cities) handled by one FD? We work and depend on our neighbors all the time, so there needs to be some consistency.

while that might be true to some degree you learn what departments you can and cannot count on.

I really don't see anybody "bashing" but you. What exactly are you defining as "bashing"? You're throwing irrelevant accusations around to drag this topic down, and people give you a response to those accusations and false impressions you seem to have and all you have is defensive remarks.

Please reply to my question above.........How do you propose we "train and get along" if, as evidenced above, people like you don't even want to listen? I'm interested to hear what solutions you propose to the problems you perceive and accusations you make.

Simple-everyone go back and worry about their own department. Identify what is working, define what is not working, find a solution of how to ovrrcome that and then work as hard as you can to fix them. No matter how hard or how much anyone on here wants to you cannot fix other departments. Legislation will only work so much bc the more the government gets involved the more things get f#/^&d up.

Not sure if this qualifies as emotional or not but I for one get tired of coming on this site trying to read what going on only to read the same guys volly bash day after day topic after topic. Go ahead deny it.

It happens, but I don't think it happens as often as you are stating and it's not a one way street. Additionally, "bashing" is subjective and it seems like a lot of volunteers get real defensive about any sort of actual or perceived criticism, no matter how valid it might be.

Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it.

While this is true, it's also true that some municipalities can handle the expense of a paid FD or at least a combination FD, but choose not to have one. That's fine if the VFD can provide an adequate, consistent response. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case. Part of the problem with this is the insistence by volunteers that want to be seen as "the same" as the career FFs and departments, but aren't actually operating on that same level.

If my taxes go up anymore Im going to live in the YMCA. that said I train like my life depends on it and give my town the very best effort and professionalattitude that I can at the end of the day can only control what I do.

That's great, but unfortunately not everybody strives for that level of effort.

Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

And failing to acknowledge the shortcomings/limitations that your department has and not working to address them is not being part of the solution.

1. If you knew me you would know I stand for progressive change within my department and have for years

2. Every FD career (see Secret List abt Hartford ( and volunteer has issues. My pt is dont limits your endless rants to just volunteers

3. Woery about your own department

You can't win with facts. You need to be emotional and entrenched in traditional responses. Don't open your eyes and tell it like it is.

Not sure if this qualifies as emotional or not but I for one get tired of coming on this site trying to read what going on only to read the same guys volly bash day after day topic after topic. Go ahead deny it. Face t some municpalites cant handle the expense of a paid FD. get over it. If my taxes go up anymore Im going to live in the YMCA. that said I train like my life depends on it and give my town the very best effort and professionalattitude that I can at the end of the day can only control what I do. Dont be part of the problem be part of the solution.

That's because most depts. refuse to acknowledge they no longer have enough qualified & capable members to perform the mission. They will make unqualified people leaders because they have no one that is qualified but this covers up for it.

Recently a dept in Westchester had one of its chiefs resign as chief, so at the monthly meeting the question was asked: "Does anyone want to be an Assistant Chief?"

Someone asked: "What are the Requirements?" The answer" "NONE"

No one took the position.

Is their a problem here?

I do not believe this is the rule or the norm in the volunteer service.

Please read this. I am sure we can all pitch in.

http://www.rochesterhomepage.net/story/d/story/lt-gov-duffy-helps-young-man-with-his-last-request/16674/aQXLkKjx5kO5OgJTcViomg

Spoken like a true NY volunteer. Of course there's bickering but it's bickering not unlike what you'd find within any firehouse. There is no resentment or divisiveness because that's not part of THEIR culture!

What's there to resent if everyone has the same training?

Um I dont know the fact that some get paid fordoing yhe same job in the same house with the same training. And if your definition of a "typical NY Volunteer" is a parade going; out of shape; untrained moron who complains about paid guys yhen im mot a typical NY volunteer. I call it like I see it. That doesnt make me typical it makes me atypical

So let me see if I get your position, everyone in the fire department is equal and rightfully called firefighter regardless of their training and capabilities? Does this include the fire police and ladies auxiliary?

If you want to discuss fitness and risk of heart attacks, the issue isn't an age restriction but rather a fitness requirement. Something that I'm sure 95% of all volunteer FD's would oppose, even those who give their members free or discounted memberships at the local fitness club or have big gyms right in the firehouse.

This is only an issue in this part of the country. I was out west in September and my friends in FD's out there laugh when I describe the set-up we have here. They have one training standard for career and volunteer, run mostly combination departments at the county level, and don't bicker like we do here. Why don't they bicker? Because they're all trained to the same standard - interior, I might add - so they don't have the rift between career and volunteer that we have over training and qualifications. Every firefighter is trained the same so one day you might be packed up and inside and the next day you might be laddering the building, stretching hose, etc. They simply don't have the nonsense that we do.

Calling everyone who works in the hospital a healthcare worker is like calling everyone who works at an airport a pilot. Simply not true. You wouldn't want someone with first aid training doing your surgery would you?

And why do people hang up their SCBA but stay in the fire department? Is it perhaps to continue building points toward a pension?

So they take all the same training and have all thesame qualifications while working in the same house and one group gets paid and the other group doesnt get paid to do the exact same job and tbey dont bicker ? Yeah ok. The very setup of that is a resentment waiting to happen.

It's not exactly the trivial thing that you seem to be inferring. I don't have a specific term to throw out there, but here's an example to help you understand the argument.

Let's say that everyone who belongs to a fire department is titled "firefighter" regardless of what role they perform or don't perform. Using that same logic, everybody who works for a hospital can be titled "doctor" regardless of what role they perform or don't perform. We don't do this because titles do matter. The titles doctor, nurse, ER tech, janitor, aide, etc. help the patients and staff distinguish between the different roles and what they each contribute to the overall operation. So, if you are sick and in need of a doctor, you wouldn't want a "doctor" (aka janitor) to treat you.

If you polled the average citizen on what a "firefighter" is and what their expectations for them are, it won't be that they just drive or just help outside if that person's house was on fire and a loved one was trapped inside. Therefore, using the title "firefighter" for all members is misleading in the same fashion that "doctor" doesn't mean the person who pushes the broom down the hallways of the hospital.

here is something to help you understand my point. The average citizen doesnt know or care who is called what as long as their local FD is doing their job. Departments should not be sending exterior guys to do an interior job. To me it should be less about what we call them and more about clearly defining what those classifications are.

My only gripes with this are Station #3 (saw carry) & #4 (ladder raise). Besides the Yard Breathers, who wears an SCBA for this stuff?

And - if I have a 30 minute bottle and you have a 60 minute bottle - does that mean the same test for both of us?

The change is long overdue, and everyone will complain about it until it's been around for a while, just like everything else, when it becomes accepted. Any volunteer fire department that thinks doing this is a bad idea are probably the same ones that let their Chiefs handle everything while the rank and file members hold their dicks back at the rigs.

Thst was my big issue from the get go. A 30 minute bottle which we all know doesnt mean 30 minutes is not fair for a guy to carry hose, drag a dummy, open a ceiling, force a door, set up a 2 section ladder, and carry a saw. Period.

So all this back and forth is about a title ? Really ? Come on guys is this what it has come to ? What should we call those who do not go interior so we can move on from this lunacy ?

You're incorrect. Every police officer in the state of NY and every career firefighter has been trained to one standard. If they are on desk or light duty later in their career, it's irrelevant. They were still trained to the same single NYS standard.

EMT, paramedic, police officer and career firefighter all have one training standard. Only in the volunteer sector did we eliminate a training standard.

Not everyone can or should be a firefighter. They have to be able to perform the job. If you want to welcome everyone with open arms into your department, fine, just don't call them all firefighters.

Listen you can spin it how you want to spin it but not every FF and PO trained in say 1998 received the same training as a FF or PO trained today. The job is always evolving and so are training standards. This has turned into Career FF vs. Volunteer FF 9.0 as is usually the case on this site. Are there some Volunteers that act the part of 'the jolly volly"? Sure. But not every career FF is professional and the notion that they are is ludicrous. Enough already.

There are other states with the same, single standard for firefighter. It doesn't matter if you're paid or a volunteer, if you want to be a firefighter you take all the required training. This doesn't mean you have to attend full-time during the day but it does mean you have to make a commitment to your training. How many people are out there with outdated or inadequate training? Too many, and we ignore it and allow it to persist. How many are joining now and only taking the barest minimum of training before donning a pack and going into an IDLH environment?

Departments can order you to complete the training if you want to be given the title firefighter.

Support or exterior positions need to be called something other than firefighter. They're not and they're misleading themselves and the public. Some departments claim to have 100 members. To the public that means 100 interior firefighters (because the public won't make the distinction). In reality they have 25 life members (no longer doing anything), 25 junior members, and 25 exterior or support members, so in reality they only have 25 interior firefighters. How many will actually show up at the call? 1/3? 1/2? So 8-12 guys that can actually go inside to fight the fire or rescue grandma or whatever.

I hear ya but inadequate or outdated training needs to be dealt with by the individual FD (AHJ). I dont see why Big Brother needs to dictate to everyone. There is a bigger agenda here and we keep beating around the bush. Solution; Let the local FD handle their own members, train the new members to the proposed FF1 and FF2 standards. Allow the existing Exterior and support staff continue because there are plenty of jobs that dont require a mask. Lets remember why career FD's retire those who cannot wear a mask--They dont want to pay them a full salary if they cant do the full job. In the volunteer sector that should not apply bc there is a job for anyone who wants to help.

It's time we stop misleading ourselves and our public. One standard for the title of firefighter.

Interesting that its viewed as additions.

When FF1 was first introduced, it was pointed out on multiple occasions, by a number of people that it was less training and skills than most other states consider as the minimum for FF1. Of greater importance it was pointed out that someone who passed FF1 did not meet the minimum legal requirements to respond to or operate at a fire based on NYS Labor Law. But FASNY and other groups convinced OFPC that that did not matter, the real issue was we do not want to much training.

OFPC finally realizes that what was the "minimum" was below legal levels and that leaves everyone in danger.

it is an addition if it was not required and now is. AAgain not fighting the need I am simply saying that 1 cylindar to do all that in succession itome seems a bit much. And to the memberwho said we need 1 standard for all firefighters in lieu of interior and exterior thats nuts. Every FD and PD has people on full time desk duty. There is a job for everyone in this service.

so just a medical no physical abilities at all? while I am on the subject how strict is your (not specifically your) dept on facial hair. Sure I shaved the day I needed to pass the fit test, and then grew my beard back. I see plenty of that at the academy from chiefs on down, all calling themselves interior. HMMM and medicals are supposed to be the only reason someone shouldn't be interior.

Why is it that everytime the fire service asks for a bare minimum standard it is looked at like we are being forced out of business?.

as I said Im not looking to turn this into paid vs. Volunteer kr anything like that. And I am one who trains regularly and never went for yhe bare minimum. That said I believe in training as well as conditioning but feel like that addition to the curriculum is over the top. And I never stated medicals alone weed out the out of shape.

I may regret ever bringing this up. And before I do let me start by saying I believe we need to stress conditioning and prepare our members for the worst and hopefor the best. That said this station test seems a bit over the top. I mean what firefighter has ever gotten off a rig then dragged hose, carried hose, forced a door, pulled a ceiling, carried and set up a ground ladder then saved someone all on 1 bottle ? I get we need to stress fitness but department medicals should weed out those who should not be going interior. This is just my opinion. I yhink this agility is a bit over the top.

American tax dollars should be used to buy Amerrcan made goods. Nothing fixes a broken economy like supporting American workers/businesses

Nice job Elmsford

You mean, focus on the good and find good. Ignore the crap, and pretend it's nois there.

if you knew me you would in mind thatnow that statement to be false. Making sweeping generalizations helps no one. Being narrow minded about all volunteers is your right so go right ahead but keep in mind that thereis always someone who has seen more and done more then you. Snicker at the Cold Spring guys and get your yucks in. That doesnt make you orofessional. It makes you pathetic