firefighter36

Stirring the pot?

I think asking for dispatch times and a play by play is more than appropriate. We are accountable to both ourselves and the public. How does multiple dispatches to get the appropriate equipment/staffing responding to alarms reflect on the fire service?

This is an excellent topic. M'AVE, thanks for the perspective on NYC's promotions. A division/borough change is a big step for any new officer, but also, a fresh start and a fair chance for a new officer to be able to do their job effectively, and be a real leader, not just a manager or first line supervisor. That, of course, is FDNY, and not the majority of small to mid-size fire departments throughout the state that employ career firefighters and officers.

In smaller career or combination departments, just like the book says, guys often go 'From buddy to boss'. You literally leave one shift in a blue shirt, and show up the next shift in a white one, with a whole new job description. (Remember, career officers don't have to attend FLST before taking command, just within 1 year of promotion.) Career advancement is a wonderful thing, and so are growing fire departments. A lot of places are experiencing growing pains, so to speak. Demographic changes in our communities, progressing the mission of the FD, are both reasons our jobs are changing. With changing jobs, comes changing responsibility.

In combination departments, all too often first line supervisors are much more than a first line company officer. They are training officers, shift commanders, senior firefighters, safety officers, etc. All while being the closest thing to a company officer the firefighters have. Typically, they have come directly from the same station, and the same back room, and were the same firefighters the guys have worked with all along. The pressure put on them by virtue of their position is often the biggest change and challenge of their careers. This is a tough dynamic to break, on both sides of the issue.

Finally, the pressure from the higher-ups. Officers in smaller places are much closer in proximity to the politicos that make the fire service possible, typically a city or village council, or board of fire commissioners. These people manage the fire department on a business level, and are not leaders. Essentially, they are not out of reach. They can be micro-managed, and held accountable, regardless of whether or not its right. As I learned my first day on the job, S#*T flows downhill.....

In my limited experience, and time on a smaller job, I guess the best way to empower officers to lead, and firefighters to do their jobs, is to let them be a fire department. Give them the proper structure to be a fire department, give the officers a chance to be leaders, and the firefighters a chance to be just that. Everything else, all things normal, should fall into place.

I think that we are missing something here. EMS contracts in this county change constantly, and people bounce from company to company, oftentimes working 3-4 agencies at any given time. While we have plenty of great providers, how do we make the business end of EMS work for the public we serve?

I would assert that 911 EMS needs to be a municipal service. Provided by the Fire Department, or a 3rd municipal service. Pay employees what they are worth for the work they do, allow some movement and a future for them (something few private sector companies in any industry can provide these days. Depending on what type of governmental entity they work for, billing can still be done to recover costs incurred for providing services.

It seems to be only the employees who lose here when contracts get bounced around and people have to bounce between agencies. Until the government powers give credibility to EMS agencies, or EMS in general, the days of contracts, politics, etc. will continue. Don't forget, the municipalities go for these agencies because they charge less than the actual cost of maintaining an ambulance and crew, hoping to make up the rest on billing revenue. I would challenge any City Manager/ Administrator to compare the costs of a private system and municipal system and see what the bottom line is. I don't think it would be too far off, and it would enable the municipality to have better control over the system, to ensure superior public safety.

I know in the Fire Service, we have NFPA 1710, 1720, etc. in regards to staffing of fire departments and fire apparatus.

I was wondering if any of the law enforcement people out here could show me any standards or formulas for police staffing. Is there an officer to resident ratio? is it based on call volume? I was wondering how departments determine what an acceptable level of staffing per shift is?

Pleasant Valley had a tanker M/A to Beacon in order to ensure a water supply in case of fires. There was quite a bit of snow, closed roads, and visible hydrants were scarce. Great idea to have that ready to go, and bravo to all those who were down there.

Interesting article/ video on the state of the Volunteer fire service in CT from the New Haven Register.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/02/28/news/a1volunteer.txt

Firefighters were held at gunpoint on an EMS call. A reminder that no call is routine, and to always be aware of your surroundings.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/02/20/news/doc4b7ee37077056772953990.txt

The contract between an FD and a Fire protection district is made yearly, or on another time constraint, as far as I know. Such a contract would absolutely be subject to FOIL. A good place to go research would be your local Tax Assessor's Office to see what the tax levied to the Protection District is, and work from there. One could also reasonably believe that the Commissioner/ Board/ Political-Based FIscal Manager, etc. of the Entity that is providing the service to the FPD would be the ones who set the "rate" for service, i.e. how much the FPD will pay for coverage for the year.

I know of a Fire Protection District that is contracted for service from a Village FD. (Combination Career/Volunteer FD with ALS Ambulance)Being a municipal FD, they can bill to recover cost of EMS service. Subsequently, the Village Mayor/ Town Supervisor often work out a "rebate" to the Town's taxpayers. Disclaimer: I am not sure of all the particulars in how it is worked out, this information came to me in some research I was doing for another project.

A Fire Protection District is not a way to automatically run away with a fire department or tax money. Conversely, an entity providing service to an FPD could theoretically pull a deal apart by charging entirely too much for service. Remember, there are some AG/Comptroller reports and decisions out there that say a government agency cannot use EMS Billing or Contracts and Fees Charged as a "funding stream" i.e. to make a profit.

I would also ventue to say that Ideally, as long as the Municipal FD or Fire District was fiscally responsible, made reasonable purchases, and had justified expenses, there should be minimal issues with the public and politicians, but then again, public perception and politics is a whole other thread for a whole other time.

Hope this helps.

A fire district is a designated area, with a board of fire commissioners, who establish a fire department. It is an independent governmental entity, and has the power to levy taxes for the purposes of funding services.

A fire Protection district is a designated area, whose services are provided by a fire district under a contract. A fire protection district has no commissioners, and no fire department established. An example of this is a Village Municipal Fire Department that responds to area towns surrounding the village. In Dutchess County, this is how the Rhinebeck Fire Department operates. In Onondaga County (Syracuse Area) the Manlius Village FD responds to the Town of Pompey and surrounding areas.

The town areas in these two examples are fire protection districts, whose tax rates are determined by the municipality/ entity providing service to the aforementioned areas.

I wouldn't blame the separate fire companies, or brothers on the line here. All too often, all of us "street-level bureaucrats" have to bear the burden and consequences of the decision-makers, commissioners' and politicians' choices and actions. In a fire district, the level of service is determined by the Board of Fire Commissioners. These commissioners are publicly elected officials whose actions are governed by NYS law. Such actions could reasonably include providing for a building for the purpose of housing staff (career or volunteer) and equipment. among others. There are laws surrounding how buildings are to be built and purchases are to be made for a reason.

Anyone who has looked at real estate from a financial perspective knows that it is oftentimes more advantageous financially to buy a home rather than rent. Why should the Fire District do differently? Not only is it the responsible thing to do, It's the law.

Of course, we could only hope that commissioners will find it logical to meet NFPA and ISO standards as can be reasonably applied within their jurisdiction (NYS is big on Authority Having Jurisdiction.) Ultimately at budget time, there has to be a bottom line, and how that bottom line is met, within the confines of the various laws empowering fire districts, while meeting the recognized operational standards is the challenging part of a fire commissioner's job, but it is their job nonetheless. It will be interesting to see what happens..

What is an acceptable staffing level for a career apparatus to respond to a fire?

Let's face it - here in Dutchess, career or volunteer - no one is responding with a safe amount of trained members..but as luck would have it - for the most part, we manage...all of us. I feel for the guys in the FFD, PFD, and other area jobs - the staffing is borderline criminal. Sad thing is it is not just this area, it is all over the world.

Again, sending an apparatus with "exterior" helpers is plain silly, and I agree with your points there for sure..but some expecting an apparatus with a driver, an Officer, AND 5 guys....unrealistic in the volunteer and career world north of Yonkers.

Departmental Chiefs have to set a policy of what they expect from incoming mutual aid...bottom line...

Doesn't our county (Dutchess) have a Task Force System specifically desgined to revolve around having adequate, trained staffing responding on mutual aid calls? Why isn`t this isn't applied to ALL alarms, not just mutual aid?

On another front, mutual aid is even a grey area, since so much of it is essentially "automatic" aid to see if we can get a rig to even respond in some areas of the county. Furthermore some aid is anything but mutual, with one department providing aid to others consistantly, and not receiving it back as such. Until departments and their commissioners, officers, and members alike can assure a response of propoerly staffed equipment that meets the lay of the land, building construction etc. of their jurisdiction, paid, volunteer, or some combination therof, we have a lot of room for improvement.

After reading the on-time ratings in the 2002 Boston Globe report, I would be interested to see what the staffing levels (or average staffing level) was in each department as well.

Also, to all of the Career Brothers here, we train in 5-6 person "Companies" in the Academy, probably for instructor liability reasons, why is it that when we get on the line we work in 2-3 person companies? Is there any liability that comes back on those who dictate the staffing of apapratus?

Fairview (Dutchess) 1594 Fire & EMS

Joe, thanks for the background of Nyack FD. A question just popped into my mind. Now that the brothers aren't pulling their rigs or using horses, are the firehouse locations practical or compliant with NFPA standards? How about the quantity and location of apparatus? Does it reflect the needs of the area? I'll be the first to admit I am not familiar with the lay of the land, the companies, stations, etc. Also, what is the community's ISO rating?

As far as the building goes, it is foolish for the FD to not own the building, and while they may have been in dire need of a station, the law is the law. I have heard of other FDs who lease fire stations from their fire companies, and these leases are among the highest per sq. ft leases for commercial space in the area. Is that in the best public interest?

I am all for fire stations, outfitting fire departments with the best, advanced, practical equipment possible, and right apparatus. This can and should only be accomplished within the bounds of the law, and the national standards we should be following.

I think that there are quite a few underlying issues here. First and foremost, if a company is not making money, they cannot operate. That means they can't employ people, pay bills, etc. There have been plenty of EMS agencies (commercial and community based) that have had bad business leadership and are no longer in business.

Second, no matter what the contract, what the company, I always see the same people hopping around working 3-4 EMS jobs. If EMS wants the pay and recognition they deserve, everyone needs to stick to one job. Working per-diem, etc. will take overtime from another employee at another job.

Third, Commercial EMS is just that, COMMERCIAL. The company needs to make money to stay in business. 911 calls are not profitable. The business models that I have seen from Commercials for bidding 911 contracts are inherently flawed in that they all rely on insurance collection to make up the balance between the contract fee and the break-even point. Show me another industry where the break-even point and the initial fee have such a variable. A commercial ambulance is similar to a taxi in that, if the vehicle is not moving with a paying passenger, than it is not making money for the company. I hate to reduce it to such a low, but that is the very root of the business. The training, patient care, and job are all respectable and necessary and honorable, but a commercial ambulance is there to make money for the company. Without that, nobody gets paid. Period.

Fourth, collective bargaining is just that, bargaining. Its give and take. I am a union officer, and I have negotiated contracts. I took labor relations class in college, and I have been to numerous seminars, trainings, etc. to do with collective bargaining, both from a union and management standpoint. The easiest way to describe collective bargaining to a novice is to imagine a pizza. The cheese, sauce, toppings can all be changed, even the size of the slices can be changed, but the medium sized crust can't get any bigger without more dough (money.) If the union demands too much, the company cannot stay alive. Look at the auto companies.

Finally, EMS deserves more respect, we all know that. 911 EMS needs to be provided on a town, city, village, county level with career, volunteer, some combination of staffing that keeps ambulances staffed to respond to 911 calls. Following NYS law, some agencies can also bill for cost recovery from insurance carriers to help soften the hit to taxpayers. If it is a career agency, the employees deserve competitive wages and benefits that make it worth going to work. If the company is making huge profits, off the backs of its employees, and not increasing compensation, and not providing safe and fair working conditions, then maybe the employees need to unionize so they have a voice. There is nothing wrong with unionization as long as things stay honest and fair. I know many corporations and employers would tell their employees otherwise for fear of having to keep things on the up and up.

I think that the overwhelming thing here is that municipalities must provide 911 EMS in some fashion as part of a full-circle public safety umbrella. It is unfortunate that the decision makers don't always view this as an important thing, but then again, it is something that is not seen until it is called and needed.

I find it perplexing that for a village of 2.5 square miles that houses 7 engines, 2 ladders, and a heavy rescue that they can't find you guys a suitable rig to respond to alarms in....

Consolidation is a lot easier said than done. Buzz words like consolidation, stream-lining, & efficiency are all great for commissioners, officers, city managers, council members, and "concerned citizens groups," etc. like to toss around to make the public, politicians and themselves feel good and sound important.

I see and hear a lot of people talking about, welcoming, or arguing about, avoiding, & bashing consolidation. Before any changes are made, a study by a recognized agency should be completed to ensure that the new arrangement will meet all recognized standards for running a fire department. Plenty of public projects have cost over runs, in fact, I can't remember a recent project such as a bridge, road, etc that has been finished by government on-time, on budget.

While that all most definitely sounds cynical, I am a champion of consolidation, so long as the end result can produce superior response times, adequate staffing, and adequate equipment to mitigate emergencies, all for a reasonable, comparable cost to that of the current services in place. For some reason, such arrangements, even if found, meet a great deal of resistance.

As I said in my last post, I'm not familiar with the situation out there, and I claim no expertise, but I did look at the district's website for information and found very little. I looked on the Circleville FD website and was unable to find copies of the budget online, so I guess it is hard to tell for sure what can be saved. I'll probably catch some heat for my next point, but I'll take the risk. While not totally accurate, when dividing their budget (600,000 as stated in the article) by call volume, the "cost per call" out there nearly equal to or higher than in some career departments. We can dispute the accuracy of such an equation, but name a combination or career department where the above mentioned players don't use the same measurement to dispute taxes, budgets, equipment, staffing, etc.

We shouldn't have to justify our overall existence, but we do need to ensure that the right combination of personnel and equipment exists to provide the right service when it is needed in a prompt, professional, and safe manner.

How will this benefit taxpayers? Saved fuel and treads on tires? Reading between the lines, it seems as though the training requirements and available personnel for response seems to be the bigger factor. How much of the 600,000 budget will they really cut by not responding to medical calls?

I don't say this to be critical, nor am I familiar with their situation out there. I am merely curious as to how much the department expects to save by making this move.

I think as long as the budget you and your fellow board members create for the fire department appropriately reflects the department meeting the various PESH/ OSHA, and NFPA Standards that govern the fire service, then you will expose yourself to minimal liability.

I have heard of board members having insurance, but I am not certain. Is anyone out there a commissioner that can elaborate. What does the required training for being a fire commissioner say about this?

This has been proposed numerous times, especially in our neck of the woods. Of course our tax exempts already pay for water and sewer service, as state law defines them as "essential." Perplexing stuff.

A great letter to the editor in the New Haven Register

Recently, my son expressed interest in exploring a career in firefighting or law enforcement. We have police officer and firefighter friends, so I recommended we contact them for some firsthand knowledge about those professions.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/10...a6992156387.txt

With all of the negativity our services are facing, it is refreshing to read a letter like this and know that our work is appreciated.

I had the privilege of riding Engine 5 with Joe when I was a member back at EHFD Company 3. He was an excellent firefighter, and just an all around great person. I'll miss you old friend. RIP.

I started at Alamo about 6 months before the Sloper-Willen buyout. I was hired by Hannon Cohen and John Wood. Portable-10 was still the supervisor, usually Scott Spencer or Rick Warner when I worked, and we knew we had an EMS call in the City when we heard the Engine 2 responding (city didn't dispatch Alamo yet.) My old days weren't as old as yours Dan, but still some great memories. Alamo was a great place to learn the ropes and there are a lot of memories made there.

Looks like a great service. It would be great to see other municipalities, counties, etc. do something like this. Besides NYC and White Plains, is this service offered anywhere else?

Great conversation we have going. First and foremost, follow all of the rules, and know the rules. Just like our work in the fire service and EMS, training is a valuable asset. Know the laws, have suitable skills handling a weapon, and have the best equipment for your application. There are plenty of shops out there willing to sell you a hand cannon with all the bells and whistles, and while nice, they are also oftentimes impractical and very costly.

As for the law: One of the major debates in the last session of congress was legislation that would make other states allow everyone's concealed carry permit across state lines. I have several out of state CCW permits, and I maintain them for just this reason. All too often, there is a a taboo associated with gun ownership or concealed carry, usually tagged on by the same people pushing to limit legal ownership. I see nothing wrong with owning weapons suitable for defense of one's self, home, and family so long as the owner understands their responsibility as a gun owner, understands the laws and consequences surrounding the use of the firearm, and meets a training requirement of some sort. Furthermore, I have no issue with a few waiting periods (for supplements, etc.) as they stand, as I am buying the gun for a legal purpose. I am however, upset that all of these rules are put in place because of the actions of people who had no intention of ever following the rules, and whose illegal use of a firearm was just that- illegal.

A Republican NYS assemblyman I know put it best to me, "When was the last time you saw a guy robbing someone with a gun apologizing to his victim for using the gun, and to stay right there so he can ditch this gun and go get a baseball bat to use as a weapon"

http://www.handgunlaw.us/ is a great resource on reciprocity, out of state CCW permits, etc.

Tim, if you were looking to start such a pipe dream in NY, look here. http://www.nyslocalgov.org/