16fire5

An initial 360 is a critical step and mandatory in most of the country. Most people would consider that action by the first arriving IC with the first alarm right behind them spot on.
The members were confronted with a KNOWN life hazard. So individual searches were both permitted and called for in this situation. Looks like the HFD did a bang up job based on what they were confronted with and their limited staffing.
Would you like the IC to drive like a nut half dress and sprint into the front door as the companies arrive to make the grab???
The search team to hold hands or tether themselves to the hose while a victims fights for every last breath?
Many times in this form we are critical of highly risky tactics when they were not warranted. In this case it seems the members did exactly what they should have. The Chief should be understandably proud of his men. Nice work HFD.

The 360 is not a newly instituted part of tactics, and it is not necessarily done by the IC himself, but by a subordinate who is assigned by either the IC or assigned by a SOP. Part of the roof man or OV man's responsibilities is to check the rear and report. Chiefs that are lucky enough to have an Aide will often send the Aide to do the 360. Of course, the IC can elect to look for himself.

A couple of thoughts here.
I really have no knowledge of how the HFD operates aside from what I read here. What it sounds like is the Chief turns out first since he doesn't dress and gets there first and does the 360 as the other apparatus is entering the block. So he or she isn't really a viable option for running in and making a grab. In the FDNY everywhere I have ever been the Chief lets the companies out and closes the doors for everyone and then trails all the apparatus. In fact if we are responding and come upon the chief 9 times out of 10 they pull over and let us by.
As for the conundrum of what to do when faced with a known life hazard upon arrival with limited staffing I see no hard fast answer. Our procedures are quite clear that an engine should not abandon stretching a line to address life hazards aside from extreme conditions. Now this was one of those things I used to fight in my mind when I would first read it but along with many others I now come to realize the genius of those sharp lads who wrote this stuff back in the day. The reality is if there's a fire bad enough to trap someone the situation is probably getting worse by the second. If we forgo stretching the line the fire will get bigger. That's not to say that in some situations you may need to go for the life hazard but it's one of the ultimate judgement calls. Putting out the fire makes lots of problems go away while letting the fire grow makes new problems by the second.
As for the 360 if you're not doing it you should start right now. Do it on everything to make it second nature (CO, Gas, AFAs). The amount of information that you can gain with it is immense. In that private dwelling fire a major part of it is ruling out the basement fire which is critical and not always apparent-think balloon frame. If you look back at a lot of LODD country wide over the last 20 years you see plenty of incidents where something that could easily have been determined by the 360 killed members.

A couple of thoughts here.
I really have no knowledge of how the HFD operates aside from what I read here. What it sounds like is the Chief turns out first since he doesn't dress and gets there first and does the 360 as the other apparatus is entering the block. So he or she isn't really a viable option for running in and making a grab. In the FDNY everywhere I have ever been the Chief lets the companies out and closes the doors for everyone and then trails all the apparatus. In fact if we are responding and come upon the chief 9 times out of 10 they pull over and let us by.
As for the conundrum of what to do when faced with a known life hazard upon arrival with limited staffing I see no hard fast answer. Our procedures are quite clear that an engine should not abandon stretching a line to address life hazards aside from extreme conditions. Now this was one of those things I used to fight in my mind when I would first read it but along with many others I now come to realize the genius of those sharp lads who wrote this stuff back in the day. The reality is if there's a fire bad enough to trap someone the situation is probably getting worse by the second. If we forgo stretching the line the fire will get bigger. That's not to say that in some situations you may need to go for the life hazard but it's one of the ultimate judgement calls. Putting out the fire makes lots of problems go away while letting the fire grow makes new problems by the second.
As for the 360 if you're not doing it you should start right now. Do it on everything to make it second nature (CO, Gas, AFAs). The amount of information that you can gain with it is immense. In that private dwelling fire a major part of it is ruling out the basement fire which is critical and not always apparent-think balloon frame. If you look back at a lot of LODD country wide over the last 20 years you see plenty of incidents where something that could easily have been determined by the 360 killed members.

A couple of thoughts here.
I really have no knowledge of how the HFD operates aside from what I read here. What it sounds like is the Chief turns out first since he doesn't dress and gets there first and does the 360 as the other apparatus is entering the block. So he or she isn't really a viable option for running in and making a grab. In the FDNY everywhere I have ever been the Chief lets the companies out and closes the doors for everyone and then trails all the apparatus. In fact if we are responding and come upon the chief 9 times out of 10 they pull over and let us by.
As for the conundrum of what to do when faced with a known life hazard upon arrival with limited staffing I see no hard fast answer. Our procedures are quite clear that an engine should not abandon stretching a line to address life hazards aside from extreme conditions. Now this was one of those things I used to fight in my mind when I would first read it but along with many others I now come to realize the genius of those sharp lads who wrote this stuff back in the day. The reality is if there's a fire bad enough to trap someone the situation is probably getting worse by the second. If we forgo stretching the line the fire will get bigger. That's not to say that in some situations you may need to go for the life hazard but it's one of the ultimate judgement calls. Putting out the fire makes lots of problems go away while letting the fire grow makes new problems by the second.
As for the 360 if you're not doing it you should start right now. Do it on everything to make it second nature (CO, Gas, AFAs). The amount of information that you can gain with it is immense. In that private dwelling fire a major part of it is ruling out the basement fire which is critical and not always apparent-think balloon frame. If you look back at a lot of LODD country wide over the last 20 years you see plenty of incidents where something that could easily have been determined by the 360 killed members.

A couple of thoughts here.
I really have no knowledge of how the HFD operates aside from what I read here. What it sounds like is the Chief turns out first since he doesn't dress and gets there first and does the 360 as the other apparatus is entering the block. So he or she isn't really a viable option for running in and making a grab. In the FDNY everywhere I have ever been the Chief lets the companies out and closes the doors for everyone and then trails all the apparatus. In fact if we are responding and come upon the chief 9 times out of 10 they pull over and let us by.
As for the conundrum of what to do when faced with a known life hazard upon arrival with limited staffing I see no hard fast answer. Our procedures are quite clear that an engine should not abandon stretching a line to address life hazards aside from extreme conditions. Now this was one of those things I used to fight in my mind when I would first read it but along with many others I now come to realize the genius of those sharp lads who wrote this stuff back in the day. The reality is if there's a fire bad enough to trap someone the situation is probably getting worse by the second. If we forgo stretching the line the fire will get bigger. That's not to say that in some situations you may need to go for the life hazard but it's one of the ultimate judgement calls. Putting out the fire makes lots of problems go away while letting the fire grow makes new problems by the second.
As for the 360 if you're not doing it you should start right now. Do it on everything to make it second nature (CO, Gas, AFAs). The amount of information that you can gain with it is immense. In that private dwelling fire a major part of it is ruling out the basement fire which is critical and not always apparent-think balloon frame. If you look back at a lot of LODD country wide over the last 20 years you see plenty of incidents where something that could easily have been determined by the 360 killed members.

An initial 360 is a critical step and mandatory in most of the country. Most people would consider that action by the first arriving IC with the first alarm right behind them spot on.
The members were confronted with a KNOWN life hazard. So individual searches were both permitted and called for in this situation. Looks like the HFD did a bang up job based on what they were confronted with and their limited staffing.
Would you like the IC to drive like a nut half dress and sprint into the front door as the companies arrive to make the grab???
The search team to hold hands or tether themselves to the hose while a victims fights for every last breath?
Many times in this form we are critical of highly risky tactics when they were not warranted. In this case it seems the members did exactly what they should have. The Chief should be understandably proud of his men. Nice work HFD.

An initial 360 is a critical step and mandatory in most of the country. Most people would consider that action by the first arriving IC with the first alarm right behind them spot on.
The members were confronted with a KNOWN life hazard. So individual searches were both permitted and called for in this situation. Looks like the HFD did a bang up job based on what they were confronted with and their limited staffing.
Would you like the IC to drive like a nut half dress and sprint into the front door as the companies arrive to make the grab???
The search team to hold hands or tether themselves to the hose while a victims fights for every last breath?
Many times in this form we are critical of highly risky tactics when they were not warranted. In this case it seems the members did exactly what they should have. The Chief should be understandably proud of his men. Nice work HFD.

I normally don't post on this site. However, I take exception to your comments. Furthermore, I have to question your integrity and validity. A 360 is an integral part of any emergency operation. As was previously stated it is even taught in (exterior) Support Scene Ops & FFI or CFR or EMT. Action without a plan is simply freelancing and haphazard. The utmost priority is to your guys, it trumps all else. Attitudes such as yours gets people killed, injured and open to litigation. Instead of having one victim you have exacerbated the op exponentially to the possibility of multiple victims, not to mention a reallocation of limited resources to effect a rescue that may have been avoided to begin with. Especially when it's unsubstantiated. Not having a handline operational, with new structures specifically, premature entry may contribute to flashover or backdraft conditions. Stating that all residential dwellings are similar if not identical, further displays your obliviousness. People are not identical, nor are there homes. To assume (well you know the saying). In the 21st century (the century we live in) you have a multiude of complictions. Clandestine meth labs, people who possess explosive materials, active shooter, photovolatic power, LOX, Collard's Mansions, etc. Not to mention alterations to existing structure that may have been done without proper authorization, or a significant drop off in grade on the Charlie side from the Alpha, or any other obstruction or hinderance to the operation. Moreover stating that anyone did nothing, lacks "balls" or "check your nuts" as you so eloquently stated, further displays your incognizance. Knowing all involved that is the farthest from the truth. I am not sure how many fires you have been to, but your statements would allude to the contrary. Thank God you are not my Captain or DC.
Great job guys. I am proud to be a member of the HFD. Job well done. Another example of the professionalism, integrity and the high reputation of our department. As for your HGTV comment, maybe you should stop watching Backdraft, it's a movie.

An initial 360 is a critical step and mandatory in most of the country. Most people would consider that action by the first arriving IC with the first alarm right behind them spot on.
The members were confronted with a KNOWN life hazard. So individual searches were both permitted and called for in this situation. Looks like the HFD did a bang up job based on what they were confronted with and their limited staffing.
Would you like the IC to drive like a nut half dress and sprint into the front door as the companies arrive to make the grab???
The search team to hold hands or tether themselves to the hose while a victims fights for every last breath?
Many times in this form we are critical of highly risky tactics when they were not warranted. In this case it seems the members did exactly what they should have. The Chief should be understandably proud of his men. Nice work HFD.

An initial 360 is a critical step and mandatory in most of the country. Most people would consider that action by the first arriving IC with the first alarm right behind them spot on.
The members were confronted with a KNOWN life hazard. So individual searches were both permitted and called for in this situation. Looks like the HFD did a bang up job based on what they were confronted with and their limited staffing.
Would you like the IC to drive like a nut half dress and sprint into the front door as the companies arrive to make the grab???
The search team to hold hands or tether themselves to the hose while a victims fights for every last breath?
Many times in this form we are critical of highly risky tactics when they were not warranted. In this case it seems the members did exactly what they should have. The Chief should be understandably proud of his men. Nice work HFD.

An initial 360 is a critical step and mandatory in most of the country. Most people would consider that action by the first arriving IC with the first alarm right behind them spot on.
The members were confronted with a KNOWN life hazard. So individual searches were both permitted and called for in this situation. Looks like the HFD did a bang up job based on what they were confronted with and their limited staffing.
Would you like the IC to drive like a nut half dress and sprint into the front door as the companies arrive to make the grab???
The search team to hold hands or tether themselves to the hose while a victims fights for every last breath?
Many times in this form we are critical of highly risky tactics when they were not warranted. In this case it seems the members did exactly what they should have. The Chief should be understandably proud of his men. Nice work HFD.

Can't agree more about the BVM. It really bothers me that we'll have some police agencies who won't do CPR on grandma but are going to administer narcan to iv drug users.

Can't agree more about the BVM. It really bothers me that we'll have some police agencies who won't do CPR on grandma but are going to administer narcan to iv drug users.

Can't agree more about the BVM. It really bothers me that we'll have some police agencies who won't do CPR on grandma but are going to administer narcan to iv drug users.

Can't agree more about the BVM. It really bothers me that we'll have some police agencies who won't do CPR on grandma but are going to administer narcan to iv drug users.

Seth,
You continue to post his propaganda when it suits your cause. So it's now interesting you distance yourself for him. How many times did you post promoting consolidation when you were a paid employee of Hartsdale?
As much as you want to to say this makes no sense. Bnechis (who you took an unwarranted shot at when you were mad at my post) spell out the fact of the matter plain. One of the districts taxes will go up. How does a sworn Commissioner vote to do it and why would a taxpayer of the district vote to have their taxes raised? While I can see the big picture there's hardly any guarantee of long term results. The thought that you could just combine all the districts and be able to surplus a bunch of chiefs is a little off base. One would think that the enlarged district should have chief officers assigned to training and fire prevention.

Ok I don't want to seem like a mean guy here picking this article apart BUT. The author is a 23 year old Lieutenant and by every indication here is a motivated member of the fire service. That being said I agree there's a difference between leader and boss but in reality sometimes you have to be the boss. As a fire officer on the fire floor you need to be the boss. As I read the article I think the author in some ways is describing leading literally when I read these parts "white helmet bobbing through the smoke in front of you" and "leading the men and women around the firehouse and fireground,". To me leadership has nothing to do with physically being in front. Almost anyone can lead someone down a hallway but it takes a real officer being the BOSS to hold up the train if things are not right. It's been pointed out here before by some of those who's experience and rank exceed mine about how too many company officers are too worried about being friends with their guys instead of being their boss. To me a leader does the right thing even if it won't be popular. Funny enough I met the Chief of the author's county department last year and there was a leadership discussion and I remember this quote he made that day and it basically went like this. "Lead you people where they need to be, not where they want to go" It struck a chord with me hopefully I made some sense here.

Ok I don't want to seem like a mean guy here picking this article apart BUT. The author is a 23 year old Lieutenant and by every indication here is a motivated member of the fire service. That being said I agree there's a difference between leader and boss but in reality sometimes you have to be the boss. As a fire officer on the fire floor you need to be the boss. As I read the article I think the author in some ways is describing leading literally when I read these parts "white helmet bobbing through the smoke in front of you" and "leading the men and women around the firehouse and fireground,". To me leadership has nothing to do with physically being in front. Almost anyone can lead someone down a hallway but it takes a real officer being the BOSS to hold up the train if things are not right. It's been pointed out here before by some of those who's experience and rank exceed mine about how too many company officers are too worried about being friends with their guys instead of being their boss. To me a leader does the right thing even if it won't be popular. Funny enough I met the Chief of the author's county department last year and there was a leadership discussion and I remember this quote he made that day and it basically went like this. "Lead you people where they need to be, not where they want to go" It struck a chord with me hopefully I made some sense here.

Ok I don't want to seem like a mean guy here picking this article apart BUT. The author is a 23 year old Lieutenant and by every indication here is a motivated member of the fire service. That being said I agree there's a difference between leader and boss but in reality sometimes you have to be the boss. As a fire officer on the fire floor you need to be the boss. As I read the article I think the author in some ways is describing leading literally when I read these parts "white helmet bobbing through the smoke in front of you" and "leading the men and women around the firehouse and fireground,". To me leadership has nothing to do with physically being in front. Almost anyone can lead someone down a hallway but it takes a real officer being the BOSS to hold up the train if things are not right. It's been pointed out here before by some of those who's experience and rank exceed mine about how too many company officers are too worried about being friends with their guys instead of being their boss. To me a leader does the right thing even if it won't be popular. Funny enough I met the Chief of the author's county department last year and there was a leadership discussion and I remember this quote he made that day and it basically went like this. "Lead you people where they need to be, not where they want to go" It struck a chord with me hopefully I made some sense here.

Ok I don't want to seem like a mean guy here picking this article apart BUT. The author is a 23 year old Lieutenant and by every indication here is a motivated member of the fire service. That being said I agree there's a difference between leader and boss but in reality sometimes you have to be the boss. As a fire officer on the fire floor you need to be the boss. As I read the article I think the author in some ways is describing leading literally when I read these parts "white helmet bobbing through the smoke in front of you" and "leading the men and women around the firehouse and fireground,". To me leadership has nothing to do with physically being in front. Almost anyone can lead someone down a hallway but it takes a real officer being the BOSS to hold up the train if things are not right. It's been pointed out here before by some of those who's experience and rank exceed mine about how too many company officers are too worried about being friends with their guys instead of being their boss. To me a leader does the right thing even if it won't be popular. Funny enough I met the Chief of the author's county department last year and there was a leadership discussion and I remember this quote he made that day and it basically went like this. "Lead you people where they need to be, not where they want to go" It struck a chord with me hopefully I made some sense here.

Agreed to everything 16fire5 says. One line that particularly bothered me was "Leaders lead from the front, and cowards lead from behind their men". Your job as an officer isn't to be upfront doing the work, its to make sure your firefighters do their work safely and properly. Would Eisenhower have been a more effective leader if he was the first to step foot on Normandy? I get pretty annoyed with this whole "coward" idea as well. Personally, until I'm shown otherwise, anyone who's in this field is not a coward. This whole macho way of thinking doesn't help anybody. "Oh its getting pretty hot in here, I'm running out of air and this fire isn't going out. Better not get out of here or I'd be a coward". Here's a crazy idea, instead of everyone going " to the front" how about just do YOUR job. If you're the engine company boss, do your job and supervise your crew on the line, don't "lead from the front" and take the nozzle from a kid who could use the experience. I'd much rather my IC was "leading from behind" and actually had a scope of the incident so he could look out for everyone's safety.

Kids in High school belong in bed well rested for the school day. They don't need the added stress of responding to emergencies, nor do they need the distraction. If your dept. relies on 18 year olds in school, then they're in trouble.....

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.

The arbitration board is the DC arbitration board and seems to be pretty lopsided towards management. The current schedule is 24 on 72 off a 4 platoon system. The proposed system is 3-12 hour days followed by 3-12 hour nights followed by 3 days off which is a 3 platoon system. The average workweek will go from 42 hours a week to 56. I don't think DC intends to pay the members for the extra 14 hours. While it may seem that 12 hour shifts will better combat fatigue the reality is that is not true. A member working their 3rd consecutive night tour will be beyond exhaustion. In a perfect world people will believe that everyone is getting 8 hours sleep in between these tours but it's just not true. Our chart in the city is 9 hour days and 15 hour nights and members frequently trade to make them into 24s. From personal experience I am never more exhausted than when I'm working consecutive nights. In reality you will be late getting out of work (awaiting relief, fires near the end of the shift, and regular administrative duties) then you drive home how ever long in my case an hour and then your young kids never got them memo about daddy needing to sleep and you need to eat something....before you know it it's time to get back in the car. So in a practical sense 24s work better on the human body. Also they save money in that there are less times when overtime is incurred for calls overlapping the end of the shift. They result in fewer vehicle trips, less gas usage, and a lower carbon footprint.
This whole thing is much more about thinly veiled racism and an political machine agenda.