SageVigiles

Food for thought, answer these to yourself (not in the forum) and decide how experienced you "really" are:
If a FAST is activated chances are shitt has hit the proverbial fan and interior conditions are less than ideal...
**Assume training does not count there is significantly less stress during training burns so it is much easier to think clearly.**
Have you ever preformed a primary search in a zero viability environment with a moderate to high heat condition?
Have you ever preformed forcible entry under conditions mentioned above?
Do you know enough about building construction to understand dangers specific to the variety buildings you may be searching?
Do you know where the most dangerous place to be is during a fire?
Do you have an idea of how much fire you can actually control with a water can?
Do you have enough experience to know when a rescue effort becomes a recovery effort?
If you were trapped, would you want yourself coming in after you?

Censorship seems harsh. That said, free speech isn't free any more than 'freedom' is. Freedoms come with a responsibility to others to show respect,restraint. To paraphrase a well known opening line in a letter addressing a complaint.... Dear Sir, Thank you for sharing your views. I agreed with you until I read your letter....
I wasn't aware people were unhappy, thought it sounded less than serious..... but if there is one more comment about "grow a pair", "man up", or "quit being a girl" you're really going to piss me off. There is nothing wrong with having a 'full set' [a.k.a. two XX's] of chromosome 23. And there is no honor in being thick skinned if it leaves the person insensitive, indifferent, unable or unwilling to show compassion. Grow a thicker skin or take a walk is more or less the same as saying, my sandbox, my rules. The only person who has a right to say that on this forum has asked us our opinion about how to keep all participants engaged. We owe him better answers.
I've never met anyone from whom I could not learn something and to whom I could not teach something, if one actively keeps an open mind and an open heart. Pushing to the sidelines members who don't meet some 'manly' standard is giving up the opportunity to teach and to learn. I hope we are all here to do a little of both.
Is there value in anonymous posts? Require everyone put their real name on what they write... and maybe try 'girling up' once in a while.

Good thread starter. It stirs up a lot of thought. But to fully answer it would take a thesis, and the answers would be different for every communities situation. Manpower, time and distances of incoming companies, qualifications of Mutual aid companies, AND the fire itself all have to be analyzed before you can truly give your answers. ICS and SOP's cannot be written in stone, They have to be dynamic and be able to handle all the "either/ors" that the first post of this thread poses.
Having not answered your initial questions. let me at least share a rule of thumb told to me many years ago by a FDNY DC. He called it the 20-minute rule and has always worked for me.
When do you call for a 2nd Alarm On Arrival?
More than 2 Windows
More than one floor
More than 20 min.
The 20 min Rule briefly explained:
More than 2 windows: For the most part, a single room will have one or two windows. Fire showing beyond that indicates that this might be more than your 1 alarm room and contents job.
More than 1 floor: Obviously, this fire is on the move and will require more resources than you have on hand.
More than 20 min: If you don't believe that the fire can be completely put out in under 20 min, transmit the 2nd. Why 20 min? Because that's how long a SCBA (and the hardworking person wearing it) will last. Without incoming manpower, you would have to stop work on thf firefight to rehab/refill.
And, while I'm at it, heres my own rule of thumb on SOP's, SOG's, and other rules of thumb:
1. Keep it simple. If it's simple, you might remember it under pressure. If it's complicated you won't.
2.Keep it flexible. Or else it won't fit your next incident.

"...and who cares?..." Lots of us do, apparently. In the fire service response times are crucial. That is why they are tracked and recorded. It's simply not good enough to say, "we do the best we can", or "these times aren't exact", "what's the big deal?", etc. It is a big deal. SECONDS COUNT. If we can improve response times, we will save lives and property. What is more important than that, someone's feelings?? QTIP.

First I will start out saying that I have very limited knowledge and hope that other more experienced members wiil chime in and aid in the discussion of operational tactics and use of the water can.
At Yorktown's fire yesterday, I, along with everyone else was impressed at the amount of fire that was knocked down with the water can. As I pulled up in the utility an noticed fire was pushing up the stairs and out the front door of the building, E270 arrived on scene and begain the basic bread and butter operations of an engine company. 3 members had streched a line to the garage / basement door, and were ready for entry while my LT and I headed to the front door with the irons and the water can and TIC. While the hose team was awaiting water, my Lt and I entered the building and he was able to hold and basically knock the fire down with just the simple use of the 2.5 gals of water. The room that was on fire was approx 5'x5' big and was the boiler and washing machine / dryer room. The fire had extended out of the room and was seconds away from catching the furnature at the top of the stairs.
Fire was banked about 1/2 down the height of the stairs and begining to travel into the garage and into the living room in the basement as well. My Lt and I made our way down the stairs and to the fire room and he begain hitting the seat of the fire and the walls/ celing with the stream quickly extinguishing most of the heated gases. Had this not been done, fire most likely would have continued travling up the stairs and spread throughout most of the living area.
That war story being told, I urge every department to carry and utilize the water can for both holding a medium sized fire in its place and extingishing a small fire before it gets out of hand while you are awaiting water. In a simple room and contents fire, the water can works wonders because in a confined area, when the water is applied, it expands to 1700 times its original size in the form of steam and will quickly darken down the fire. When a fire is little bit beyond the r&c stage, it can hold back and slow progression until the hose team arrives.
Im curious as to what other departments utilize this tool and how its implemented in their deparment. For mine, every rig with the exeception of the tanker and the brush truck carry at least 1 2.5 gal water can, and take it in on almost every alarm we receive. Im sure other can add more to this, but thats my rant for now.

Most of the NIOSH reports sent out can be a learning experience for all of us, they usually have a detailed reason on what,why when went wrong. On a yearly basis 100+ firefighters die in the US alone. If we can all learn from other incidents where a LODD occurs thats a benefit. The point stated by many too include FJ is that the warning signs are there in some situations however it is never known for sure that the structure is vacant or occupied. How many times has a victim been found both during the primary and secondary search when the report from the people in the street stated that nobody lives there or they aren't home? At a recent "VACANT" fire that my co workers went to there was 3 persons in the building. Although the fire was minor the structure was still occupied (illegally) however occupied. With the economy down the tubes there are more "VACANTS" out there that may be occupied because some people have no place to go. The statement from NIOSH here IMO is wrong. Be Safe!

This competition was held at the Westchester County Police Academy in Valhalla last Sunday, October 11th. Greenburgh PD was the host agency, with alot of assistance from the Greenburgh CERT Team, the Northeast Regional Law Enforcement Education Association (NERLEEA), Westchester County Community College and the Westchester County Police.
Competitions were in the following areas:
Building Search
Crime Scene
Crisis Intervention
Domestic Disturbance
Driving Simulator
DUI Enforcement
Felony Stop
First Aid
MV Stop
Reported Assault
Shoot/Don’t Shoot (FATS)
Shots Fired
Suspicious Persons
Unknown Response
Career Development
Leadership Reaction
Obstacle Course
Search & Control
Cruiser Push
The following agencies Explorers were represented (the ones I can recall:)
Greenburgh Police Explorers
Tuckahoe Police Explorers
Putnam County Sheriff's Office Cadets
Danbury, CT Police Explorers
Northeast Regional Law Enforcement Education Association (NERLEEA) Competition Travel Team (CT State Police Trp K, New Britain PD, Vernon PD)
Westchester County Police Explorers
Mt. Pleasant Police Explorers
and several other agencies I cannot remember for the life of me.
Danbury did well, taking 3rd Place overall, which was pretty good for a team that was about half new people with no competition experience and still new in their training.
Here are some shots from the day's events:
Danbury Explorer Sergeant Barnier searching a suspect in the unknown response scenario:

Danbury Explorer Ferriera competing in the obstacle course, where she took First Place for females:

Danbury's team in the Leadership Reaction course

Members of the NERLEEA Travel Team (various agencies in CT/MA) competing in the Traffic Stop:

"Unit 91, that plate comes back to a Spurberry Police vehicle" "IT DOES? OH MY GOD!"

NERLEEA Lieutenant Burch (Training Unit) talking to "dispatch" during his traffic stop scenario.

Danbury's Team beginning the "Cruiser Push" competition: