Hawthorne Two Fires, One Building 1-18-07

[Guest x2371]

Just curious, how do you have 2 fires in one building like that with all the patients (basement fire and fire on the 4th floor) and no FAST on scene. I know this is a topic that is bet to death but if we don't protect ourselves who will. Basment fire are the worst type of fires usually one way in and one way out. If the ---- hits the fan then what do you do? I heard the tone outs and then the tone outs for additional manpower when there was smoke and then calling in Valhalla for mutual aid but no FAST ?

[helicopper 1,050]

Just curious, how do you have 2 fires in one building like that with all the patients (basement fire and fire on the 4th floor) and no FAST on scene. I know this is a topic that is bet to death but if we don't protect ourselves who will. Basment fire are the worst type of fires usually one way in and one way out. If the ---- hits the fan then what do you do? I heard the tone outs and then the tone outs for additional manpower when there was smoke and then calling in Valhalla for mutual aid but no FAST ?

Interesting point.

And only one ambulance according to the IA? Is that right?? Did they evacuate to outside or right across to the Medical Center? Lots of interesting questions come up with a job like this.

Please note that I am asking questions - not criticizing! This could be a great scenario for drill night discussions anywhere since we all have nursing homes or other similar facilities in the area.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Chris192

[IzzyEng4 427]

Just curious, how do you have 2 fires in one building like that with all the patients (basement fire and fire on the 4th floor) and no FAST on scene. I know this is a topic that is bet to death but if we don't protect ourselves who will. Basment fire are the worst type of fires usually one way in and one way out. If the ---- hits the fan then what do you do? I heard the tone outs and then the tone outs for additional manpower when there was smoke and then calling in Valhalla for mutual aid but no FAST ?

Think of it this way as well, a single fire in a balloon framed dwelling. Same difference right? Fire can easily extend from th basement up into the attic without touching the second and third floors.

Hind sight is bliss and obviously if there is a protocol for RIT / FAST units to respond then it should be followed. But we don't know what was going on in the mind of IC. Was it an oversight? Did he think DISPATCH had already started out the closest FAST / RIT automatically? What resources did he have and did he have to put to work the FAST team on scene? Did the IC utilized and assign members from the responding department as a FAST team to facilitate this? We, those looking from the outside, won't know until there is a review of the incident on what the IC decisions were.

[JustSomeGuy 0]

Not meaning to bash the Dept involved, I am sure they did a good job. I always said that M/A should be designated by the county, and a county wide alarm system, ie 1st alarm full dept, fast, m/a to cover, 2nd alarm eng, truck, 2nd fast, etc etc...... I see way too many times in volunteer depts that chiefs who are put in charge for two years make drastic changes, don't get along with neighboring depts, not playing well w/ others etc.... IMO depts shouldn't have to say give me a fast, 1 eng from here and 1 truck from there, it should automatically come with increasing the alarm.

[CG206 29]

Smoky kitchen fire forces relocation of occupants at Hawthorne nursing home

Rob Ryser • The Journal News • January 18, 2008

HAWTHORNE - Quick work by volunteer firefighters and staff to relocate 29 drowsy nursing home occupants during a 2 a.m. fire at the Taylor Care Center today prevented the frail residents from suffering smoke inhalation or other injures, a top fire official said.

Link to full story: http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...EWS02/801180432

_[edited]

[Guest x2371]

Izzy here is a line from the post. It doesn't sound like they assigned a FAST from there own members

2:30- 2482 and BAT 11 using all hands for fire in the basement and heavy smoke on the number 3 and 4 floors

Also did Hawthorne transfer command to Valhalla first you had 2198 as command and 2482 is Valhalla. I'm not bashing or playing mon morning QB but all about the safety of the crews, I know a lot of members from both departments but the closest next department is either Thornwood or Elmsford which would take 10min from dispatch to get there. That would be to long if someone went down.

It sounds like a great stop by them but if they ad to relocate 29 people there is no way they had enough members for a FAST crew.

[Guest]

how many ambulances were used, if any?

edit...just reread chris's post, that said 1 ambulance (87A1 i assume?) was used...if that # is incorrect, how many?

Edited January 18, 2008 by vacguy

[efdny2003 16]

From reading the IA Post, it seems there was a lot more from Valhalla which could be why command was transfered to 2482. Going to the FASTeam, it doesnt sound like one was there. While it does sound like a good knock down...it also sounds like everyone on scene was working, including command. I could be reading that wrong, but thats what it sounds like. Not to cause trouble, but if that is the case where everyone was working, who's maintaining command, watching the building for possible extension of the fire, who's conducting any incoming trucks to the scene...and was it just Valhalla and Hawthorne, or did they call in any dept.'s for standbys.

[DaRock98 76]

To answer some of the many questions on this topic yes Valhalla was called to the scene do to a heavy smoke condition at the time there was no visible fire just a heavy smoke condition. That smoke condition was caused by a motor malfunction in a generator unit up on the 4th floor. Valhalla then responded with a ladder and 1 engine. Once Valhalla's engine company began there investigation they found a small fire in the kitchen in the basement that was quickly extinguished and caused even more of a smoke condition in the building. That small kitchen fire was caused by a hot plate melting(per C&O). Once that kitchen fire was found 2482 requested Rescue 9 to the scene who acted as a fast team even tho they weren't requested as one and EMS to stand by. As for the relocating of 29 Pt's not all of the Pt's were moved(floor had 29 Pt's) only about 10-12 were moved by nurses, EMS and FF's the wing was not full of smoke but there was a light haze and some of the Pt's had asthma so they were moved across the hall. 2198 had transfered command to 2482 upon his arrival.

[Guest]

As for the relocating of 29 Pt's not all of the Pt's were moved(floor had 29 Pt's) only about 10-12 were moved by nurses, EMS and FF's the wing was not full of smoke but there was a light haze and some of the Pt's had asthma so they were moved across the hall.

since 87A1 is based out oc TCC, did they remain in the building just because or did they establish "normal SOP" of standing-by outside first? did 2482 clear the building for EMS to enter?

[DaRock98 76]

since 87A1 is based out oc TCC, did they remain in the building just because or did they establish "normal SOP" of standing-by outside first? did 2482 clear the building for EMS to enter?

They were requested I believe just to stand by but when they arrived they told the IC that they got the page as if they were needed to take care of Pt's so the IC sent them to the 3RD floor once they got to the floor and found there was no one in need of care they helped with accountability and the moving of Pt's.

[Guest]

They were requested I believe just to stand by but when they arrived they told the IC that they got the page as if they were needed to take care of Pt's so the IC sent them to the 3RD floor once they got to the floor and found there was no one in need of care they helped with accountability and the moving of Pt's.

huh, interesting situation. not one usually seen in mt pleasant. according to the IA, heavy smoke was on the 3rd floor, why was ems in a building, on one of the floors where the FIRE is?

[DaRock98 76]

huh, interesting situation. not one usually seen in mt pleasant. according to the IA, heavy smoke was on the 3rd floor, why was ems in a building, on one of the floors where the FIRE is?

If you read my post before I said there was fire in the BASEMENT and a malfunction of a motor on the 4th floor that caused the heavy SMOKE condition. There was never any fire on the 3rd floor just a smoke condition that was vented and 90% cleared by the time EMS arrived. I can't speak for the IC but I highly doubt he would send EMS to the 3rd floor and put there lives in danger. The IC and both Hawthorne and Valhalla fire depts did a GREAT JOB and knocked down a fire in a very quick fashion to prevent any extentions.

[Oswegowind 17]

Is there an SOP/SOG regarding nursing homes, hospital facilities, and group homes for your district? This is one of those items so easily left out because they are not so common. This is a general question for each and every one of the members of this site to think about...not directed at this specific incident. I have always given thought to this and other occupied facilities such as schools during the day time. What if? is important in this case. In my opinion, each department should sit down today and see if they can come up with a solution. Imagine having to move those 29 persons out of the facility. Where do you take them? How do you get them out? Pre-planning is very important! My recommendation is that you have more than you think you need coming...just in case! Liberty Lines/Bee Line usually are more than willing to send resources to move a large amount of persons in a little bit of time. Mutual Aid should be pre-planned in this case...especially for day time calls, cause we all know how many people show up! Mutual Aid should include police, fire, and ems as well as support services placed on stand by...

MFY

[emt301 4]

To answer some of the many questions on this topic yes Valhalla was called to the scene do to a heavy smoke condition at the time there was no visible fire just a heavy smoke condition. That smoke condition was caused by a motor malfunction in a generator unit up on the 4th floor. Valhalla then responded with a ladder and 1 engine. Once Valhalla's engine company began there investigation they found a small fire in the kitchen in the basement that was quickly extinguished and caused even more of a smoke condition in the building. That small kitchen fire was caused by a hot plate melting(per C&O). Once that kitchen fire was found 2482 requested Rescue 9 to the scene who acted as a fast team even tho they weren't requested as one and EMS to stand by. As for the relocating of 29 Pt's not all of the Pt's were moved(floor had 29 Pt's) only about 10-12 were moved by nurses, EMS and FF's the wing was not full of smoke but there was a light haze and some of the Pt's had asthma so they were moved across the hall. 2198 had transfered command to 2482 upon his arrival.

Thanks for the information. It seems like there's been a lot of "monday morning quarterbacking" and speculation as to whether or not things were handled properly on this incident, rather than just reserving judgment until the facts were released.

Edited January 19, 2008 by emt301

[ny10570 745]

huh, interesting situation. not one usually seen in mt pleasant. according to the IA, heavy smoke was on the 3rd floor, why was ems in a building, on one of the floors where the FIRE is?

As long as the environment is safe, why not enter. Its common for crews at high rise fires to enter and stage on a lower floor to meet a victim coming out and occasionally going up to get the someone after the fire is extinguished.

[firecapt32 282]

monday morning quaterbacking is ok as long as there is constructive thngs going on. The reciever s of the quarterbacking should also remember that most of us werent there at the time of the alarm or in the decision making--so its eazy to see things when you have read the outcome in the paper.

Decisions made on the fire ground are based on information that you have AT THAT TIME when more information is made avaiable -different decisions can be made. So it only seems fair to say that the more information a IC has the more intelligent the decision. Pre-planning is important in all Fire Department. SOP's -SOG's help FD help the IC a well as all member of the department.

[helicopper 1,050]

Is there an SOP/SOG regarding nursing homes, hospital facilities, and group homes for your district? This is one of those items so easily left out because they are not so common. This is a general question for each and every one of the members of this site to think about...not directed at this specific incident. I have always given thought to this and other occupied facilities such as schools during the day time. What if? is important in this case. In my opinion, each department should sit down today and see if they can come up with a solution. Imagine having to move those 29 persons out of the facility. Where do you take them? How do you get them out? Pre-planning is very important! My recommendation is that you have more than you think you need coming...just in case! Liberty Lines/Bee Line usually are more than willing to send resources to move a large amount of persons in a little bit of time. Mutual Aid should be pre-planned in this case...especially for day time calls, cause we all know how many people show up! Mutual Aid should include police, fire, and ems as well as support services placed on stand by...

MFY

Buses (Liberty Lines or other) are a great option but they're not going to work if you have large numbers of non-ambulatory patients, especially patients on ventilators or requiring special orthopedic arrangements on their bed.

Oswego hits the nail on the head - PREPLAN! Nursing homes and other facilities exist in almost every community and should be a major part of preplanning efforts. Not because of haz-mat or other fire hazards but because of the unique life safety issues.

Nursing homes are required by DOH regulation to have emergency plans including "evacuation". Most, if not all, rely on ambulances for the evacuation. If you haven't sat down with the administration of the NH to discuss whether or not YOU'RE their "ambulance" for evacuation you should. You should be aware of what their expectations are, plans call for, etc. If it isn't your agency and is a commercial service, you should discuss with them whether or not they have the resources readily available on nights or weekends to complete an evacuation or if they will require your assistance.

[Beachbum 1]

There are some valid points brought up here about preplanning nursing homes. Every nursing home should have one in place and P.D., F.D., and E.M.S. should all be involved with it. I just wanna say though the incident that happened in Hawthorne was not as extreme as some of you are making it out to be, you can not assume things by reading the IA. There was only one fire in the building, a very small one, and it was extinguished by the powder system prior to F.D. finding it. The other problem was a burnt out motor in the penthouse, no fire. Rescue 9 was called for additional man power to ventilate the building. If there was a need for a fast team it would of been initiated by that crew. As for the patients in the home, the small number that were affected were moved to another wing by the staff, transcare and f.d. members, there was no need for 10 more ambulances to be at the seen this was not an M.C.I. no one was hurt, no lives were in danger. If there was a working fire the proper steps would have been taken. A working fire assignment would have been called.

[helicopper 1,050]

There are some valid points brought up here about preplanning nursing homes. Every nursing home should have one in place and P.D., F.D., and E.M.S. should all be involved with it. I just wanna say though the incident that happened in Hawthorne was not as extreme as some of you are making it out to be, you can not assume things by reading the IA. There was only one fire in the building, a very small one, and it was extinguished by the powder system prior to F.D. finding it. The other problem was a burnt out motor in the penthouse, no fire. Rescue 9 was called for additional man power to ventilate the building. If there was a need for a fast team it would of been initiated by that crew. As for the patients in the home, the small number that were affected were moved to another wing by the staff, transcare and f.d. members, there was no need for 10 more ambulances to be at the seen this was not an M.C.I. no one was hurt, no lives were in danger. If there was a working fire the proper steps would have been taken. A working fire assignment would have been called.

Since when do we plan for the best case scenario?

There was smoke throughout the building (according to the IA and other posts) and at least one fire. Yes, the players did a good job with what they had, BUT what if there was more involved. What if they did need to evacuate the building? What if the probems in the building caused a power failure - would it have been an MCI then (not because of trauma but because of numbers)? What if a FAST was needed? To say that the personnel inside the building performing ventilation would have served as the FAST if needed is ambitious to say the least.

With this kind of philosophy, why respond to alarms with lights and siren?

No, the incident wasn't extreme in terms of fire conditions but it was a nursing home with a large number of already infirm people who could do without the stress, smoke, and relocation - even just within the building. There was tremendous potential for existing medical conditions to be exacerbated and my question about 1 ambulance did not imply that there should have been 10 but rather how the relocation/evacuation was accomplished. I was wondering how much the staff at the hospital across the street contributed (if at all).

[Beachbum 1]

We could play "what if's" until we are blue in the face. For the fast team (Which was Rescue9), before they would have been in on the ventilation they would have been the the fast team maybe I wasn't clear in the last thread, but there was no need for the fast. If there was flames and heavy smoke and the building was not secure yes there should be a fast team plus many other agencies. The building was secure the smoke, where the patients were was light and the number of patients affected were small. And once again Chris you are going by the IA. The IA tells maybe half the story, not to knock the writer. So if your what if's came into play the working fire assignments would have been activated. Why would you ask a question if we should respond lights and sirens, it makes no sense. Maybe you did not get what i was saying. As for the staff they were helpful enough in moving the 12 patients into another clear wing with the help of firefighters and transcare. I am sure if transports were needed Transcare would asked for more help.

[Guest Devil Dog]

Just curious, how do you have 2 fires in one building like that with all the patients (basement fire and fire on the 4th floor) and no FAST on scene. I know this is a topic that is bet to death but if we don't protect ourselves who will. Basment fire are the worst type of fires usually one way in and one way out. If the ---- hits the fan then what do you do? I heard the tone outs and then the tone outs for additional manpower when there was smoke and then calling in Valhalla for mutual aid but no FAST ?

:winkwinknudgenudgeinsidejoke:

[Monty 35]

We could play "what if's" until we are blue in the face. For the fast team (Which was Rescue9), before they would have been in on the ventilation they would have been the the fast team maybe I wasn't clear in the last thread, but there was no need for the fast. If there was flames and heavy smoke and the building was not secure yes there should be a fast team plus many other agencies. The building was secure the smoke, where the patients were was light and the number of patients affected were small. And once again Chris you are going by the IA. The IA tells maybe half the story, not to knock the writer. So if your what if's came into play the working fire assignments would have been activated. Why would you ask a question if we should respond lights and sirens, it makes no sense. Maybe you did not get what i was saying. As for the staff they were helpful enough in moving the 12 patients into another clear wing with the help of firefighters and transcare. I am sure if transports were needed Transcare would asked for more help.

I think the point Chris was trying to make is either:

a:) go with a more pessimistic case - ie call FAST as soon as you have smoke or fire

b:) go with a more optimistic case - assume it is smoke and bells until proven otherwise - and subsequently respond non-emergency

Now, I'm sure there's a compromise. Some places the first engine responds lights and siren, other pieces non-emergency to automatic alarms etc. A lot of people advocate calling for help before you need it, so with a real smoke condition call for help and turn it around if necessary when the cause of smoke has been determined.

One thing I haven't seen in this case (and I may have missed) is how quickly the source of smoke was completely determined. Was it 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes? Unlikely as it is, if I was in this situation and didn't know for sure what the cause of smoke was within 2 minutes, I would call for FAST as a precaution.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Monty

[Beachbum 1]

The fast was called, it was rescue 9. They then changed over to ventilation when it was determined the small fire was out, which is while they were still responding.