Update on Stamford Merger

[Flyboy69 1]

Just an update for those who are wondering, TORFD lost its' case against the city regarding that the city was in contempt by violating the charter. They are going back to court in October regarding their funding, but I think TORFD is or has realized that they do not have a leg to stand on.

You are half right. The courts did say the city did not violate the injunction that was put in place last year. TORFD and the City will be back in court in October to work out the agreement to get SFRD into the TORFD fire houses, an agreement that the TORFD members voted down last month. As for the funding issues, TORFD has joined the Belltown FD case to get more city funding and that case is scheduled for August 19th.

[jcoppola 52]

I would like to know how long the departments that received this "radically" reduced budget will be able to survive while this case is dragging along in court. Not knowing anything about the bills and expenses of Belltown and Turn of River, but realistically how far can 20 grand go with energy, communications and fuel costs the way they are??? Is there some kind of contingency plan in place when these organizations run out of money? Liquidation of assets?

JVC

[FFPCogs 863]

Well the operating costs have to come from somewhere....and having sat through many a monthly meeting I can tell you 20Gs won't last too long at all.

You gotta love the legal system though...where else can you take a 2 month vacation when lives, property and peoples jobs may hang in the balance.

In reality it's seems apparent to me the Judge Tierney (whom I've met) wants this resolved out of his courtroom.

Cogs

[Guest sfrdff]

I can tell you one way TORFD is stretching their 40 g's is by consolidating their operations to station 1 and basically shutting down station 2. Also the courts will not decide if SFRD will go into TOR firehouses. That is something that the city, TOR and ultimately the UNION have to agree on.

Edited August 10, 2008 by sfrdff

[jcoppola 52]

I can tell you one way TORFD is stretching their 40 g's is by consolidating their operations to station 1 and basically shutting down station 2. Also the courts will not decide if SFRD will go into TOR firehouses. That is something that the city, TOR and ultimately the UNION have to agree on.

I have to think that the court can order personnel and equipment anywhere they feel that public safety is jeopardized. Shutting down firehouses because of lack of funding and consolodation of expenses goes directly at public safety. Take a look at Bridgeport a few months ago when they had that fire right near the closed quarters of Engine 7/Laddder 11. Not saying that the closed firehouse was a direct reason that there was a loss of life, but the public most certainly perceives so.

[Guest sfrdff]

Well SFRD is already covering the TOR district with engines 8 & 9, so that is irrelevant. As far as SFRD going into TOR firehouses that is what I said has to be worked out by the city and TOR and then brought to the union for final approval.

[jcoppola 52]

Well SFRD is already covering the TOR district with engines 8 & 9, so that is irrelevant. As far as SFRD going into TOR firehouses that is what I said has to be worked out by the city and TOR and then brought to the union for final approval.

Its not irrellevant if you are a member of that place...lets show a little humanity...I realize that SFRD is the big boy in all of this but lets not get out of control with it...

[Guest sfrdff]

Maybe what I said by irrelevant was taken out of context....What I said was simply a response to you saying that the courts could order resources/manpower to that district. As far as showing compassion, I know there are very knowledgeable volunteers that are good people and good VFFs' and take what they do very serious. But there are also major tools that do not take Volunteering seriously and treat the firehouse like their own personal clubhouse and as sad and unfortunate as it is, they almost always overshadow the good guys....

Edited August 11, 2008 by sfrdff

[FFPCogs 863]

In the fire service we all suffer from the slackers that are a part of EVERY dept..including the SFRD. Yeah you've got them too..those who hang back, just show up for a paycheck, always whine and moan boo hoo hoo and do NOTHING for anyone but themselves. Their easy enough to spot at a job, and they are spotted. And the tool-a-tude is not just a volunteer malady either. There are career FFs who think they are the end all - be all of firefighting and are just as full of themselves as their volunteer counterparts because they are a "fireman". No part of the service has the monopoly on "bad apples", it is a universal problem (albeit for different reasons sometimes)and probably always will be. There have been and are abuses by a very few union members that cast a long shadow over the vast majority of career FFs/IAFF members who actually DO their jobs..just look at what's going on up in Beantown.

If having "tools" among the ranks were a reason to close up shop...we'd all be done, regardless of status.

My $.02 for today

Cogs

[lad45der 78]

In the fire service we all suffer from the slackers that are a part of EVERY dept..including the SFRD. Yeah you've got them too..those who hang back, just show up for a paycheck, always whine and moan boo hoo hoo and do NOTHING for anyone but themselves. Their easy enough to spot at a job, and they are spotted. And the tool-a-tude is not just a volunteer malady either. There are career FFs who think they are the end all - be all of firefighting and are just as full of themselves as their volunteer counterparts because they are a "fireman". No part of the service has the monopoly on "bad apples", it is a universal problem (albeit for different reasons sometimes)and probably always will be. There have been and are abuses by a very few union members that cast a long shadow over the vast majority of career FFs/IAFF members who actually DO their jobs..just look at what's going on up in Beantown.

If having "tools" among the ranks were a reason to close up shop...we'd all be done, regardless of status.

My $.02 for today

Cogs

Remember keep your tools clean and stop painting the working ends of the tools!!

[jcoppola 52]

Maybe what I said by irrelevant was taken out of context....What I said was simply a response to you saying that the courts could order resources/manpower to that district. As far as showing compassion, I know there are very knowledgeable volunteers that are good people and good VFFs' and take what they do very serious. But there are also major tools that do not take Volunteering seriously and treat the firehouse like their own personal clubhouse and as sad and unfortunate as it is, they almost always overshadow the good guys....

Not sure how long you have in the paid fire service, but I have a newsflash for you...there are plenty of these "tools" you speak of in the career service too. And they are all over, Norwalk or Stamford is no exception.

Joe

[eckyphats 0]

ive been listening to stamford while at at on overnights and I got to tell you ive heard TOR get out pretty much every calls, signing in under a minute, they had a pin job the other night and their engine and rescue were on the road right after dispatch

[Guest REDDDOGG]

ive been listening to stamford while at at on overnights and I got to tell you ive heard TOR get out pretty much every calls, signing in under a minute, they had a pin job the other night and their engine and rescue were on the road right after dispatch

No one said that TOR could not get out for calls after 5 or 6pm it's during the hours of 8am-5pm that have been of issue. You can not limit your emergency responses to just a certain time of the day...Emergencies can happen at any time during a 24 hour period as i'm sure everyone on this board knows

[FFPCogs 863]

Emergencies can happen at any time during a 24 hour period as i'm sure everyone on this board knows

You are absolutely 100% correct Reddog.

There is only one possible way in which the VFDs of Stamford can..whatever their reasoning...keep SFRD personnel out of their firehouses. That is to develop and implement a system that GUARANTEES 24/7 volunteer coverage...no easy task in the Stamford of 2008. Some suggestions to that effect have been offered here, but it is up to those departments to make it happen.

The idea of 100% volunteer fire deprtments operating in Stamford is not wrong in general, nor would the citizens of Stamford suffer from such coverage...so long as minimum staffing requirements can be and ARE met, But having 100% volunteer coverage for the sake of having volunteer coverage regardless of the necessities involved is wrong and potentially dangerous.

Another option is one practiced down in some counties of VA/MD in which career FFs staff some firehouses during the daytime regular working hours (i.e. M-F 7am-5pm) and then volunteers take the overnights (5pm-7am) and weekends. Now this may not be acceptable to all involved there, but it is one more possible compromise.

All involved would better serve themselves and the community at large to expand their views and seriously investigate options that have and do work elsewhere.

My daily $.02

Cogs

[FFPCogs 863]

Let me just add that I am fully aware that the above option does not fit with the current contract between the Local and the City. Obviously it would require a reevaluation of existing policies ect. But although difficult and maybe even unpalatable to some it could be done with just a modicum of willingness on the part of the involved parties. To achieve an outcome acceptable to the City, the Local and the Volunteer FDs ALL will need to give a little and respect alot.

Also this type of arrangement is working elsewhere with no loss to the union members..remember these are countywide departments all incorporated into ONE Local...here's an example:

Our Professional Fire Fighters, Emergency Medical Technician's, and Paramedics provide full time protection at twenty six of Prince George's County's forty four Fire & EMS Stations and daytime protection on Monday - Friday, between the hours of 7AM - 3PM, at thirteen additional Fire & EMS Stations.

Same thing for Stamford, just on a smaller scale.

Cogs

The above quote totals 39 out of 44 stations in the county covered full or part time by career FFs..that leaves five 100% volunteer stations that are required to meet the same staffing regulations 24/7 and they do, ...so it is possible.

Just another $.02

Edited August 14, 2008 by FFPCogs

[eckyphats 0]

No one said that TOR could not get out for calls after 5 or 6pm it's during the hours of 8am-5pm that have been of issue. You can not limit your emergency responses to just a certain time of the day...Emergencies can happen at any time during a 24 hour period as i'm sure everyone on this board knows

I dont listen during the day, just when Im at work, just the times i hear I always hear them getting out quickly

[FFPCogs 863]

Heard a rumor today that Belltown's case was dismissd..they'll have to survive on the $20,000. Any truth to this development?

Cogs

Edited August 21, 2008 by FFPCogs

[Guest BFD196]

The case has not been dismissed....

[FFPCogs 863]

Glad to hear it.

[pjreilly 6]

times must be getting tough. http://trfd.com:81/ check this out

[Guest Sqd47]

Times getting tough?

Why wouldn't they be... Turn of River and Belltown are now receiving funding on just over 10% of what they requested for operating expenses.

If you receved a pay cut like this you would probably be in dire straits as well.

[FFPCogs 863]

Times getting tough?

Why wouldn't they be... Turn of River and Belltown are now receiving funding on just over 10% of what they requested for operating expenses.

If you receved a pay cut like this you would probably be in dire straits as well.

Well said.

[pjreilly 6]

Times getting tough?

Why wouldn't they be... Turn of River and Belltown are now receiving funding on just over 10% of what they requested for operating expenses.

If you receved a pay cut like this you would probably be in dire straits as well.

I think the last time I went to a bake sale was in grammar school, and we made about $0.05 profit. Will that solve there problems? doubtful.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Just a question, if those departments in Stamford the do not want to go with SRFD, why don't they petition the state to become a separate fire protection taxation district (again) instead of having to go through the city? I do not know much about the departments down there that is why I'm asking. This might solve the funding issues or it is something in the town / city charter and incorporation that prevents this?

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Ive been out of the mix on this topic for a while but just a question for Cogs. You mentioned the P.G. guys again having paid staff for the day tour only. Wasnt this in effect in the big 5 at one point at the onset of career personel? I hate to continue to be a doubting Thomas but it just seems like somewhat of a vicious cycle. They had drivers just for the day tours initialy, then it went to a driver 24hrs, then 2 men on at all times. Why do you think this happened, call volume, volunteer turnout? As I recall the staffing was continually incresed in these dept to provide better coverage due to a void in volunteer turnout. What is going to be different now? Just being the devils advocate here and looking at this from a different perspective.

Paul

[jcoppola 52]

Just a question, if those departments in Stamford the do not want to go with SRFD, why don't they petition the state to become a separate fire protection taxation district (again) instead of having to go through the city? I do not know much about the departments down there that is why I'm asking. This might solve the funding issues or it is something in the town / city charter and incorporation that prevents this?

I believe that since the shift of paid personnel from SFRD to the northern districts (Engines 6, 8 & 9), the residents of those once "volunteer" areas are now paying for their fire protection through their current taxes. To even think to add more taxes is totally absurd. I live in a fire taxation town and I pay nothing to the town for fire protection, I pay annual fire taxes based on the mil rate of my property. By all accounts, the local departments do a good job of managing the money. Although, we have a large amount of shiny, overpriced fire equipment in our town, but I guess morale has a price.

Joe

[jcoppola 52]

Ive been out of the mix on this topic for a while but just a question for Cogs. You mentioned the P.G. guys again having paid staff for the day tour only. Wasnt this in effect in the big 5 at one point at the onset of career personel? I hate to continue to be a doubting Thomas but it just seems like somewhat of a vicious cycle. They had drivers just for the day tours initialy, then it went to a driver 24hrs, then 2 men on at all times. Why do you think this happened, call volume, volunteer turnout? As I recall the staffing was continually incresed in these dept to provide better coverage due to a void in volunteer turnout. What is going to be different now? Just being the devils advocate here and looking at this from a different perspective.

Paul

Paul,

I totally agree with your points and I also hate to be the Doubting Thomas, but I have a hard time believing that these 100% volunteer fire houses are going to be able to keep up with the demands placed on a modern fire service without any normally operating staff, call it career, paid, professional, whatever you want, like you said, this most likely will come full circle and become too much to handle. With the elimination of funds that the city pulled on BFD and TRFD, how can they be blamed for the eventual demise? They really can't. I applaud the pride and effort in trying to stay afloat, but reality is reality and one has to wonder how long it can last like this. A bake sale by a fire department looks amateurish, I'm sorry. The preception of that is not good (in this writer's opinion).

Joe

[x152 179]

A bake sale by a fire department looks amateurish, I'm sorry. The preception of that is not good (in this writer's opinion).

Joe

Joe: I will give them credit and believe that may be intentional? Perhaps to use an extreme gesture in order to make an extreme statement about their financial situation? (Just a thought). If that is not the case, I would also agree that it is going to yield little in the way of real money and does have the appearance of being somewhat "elementary"?

I have some pretty strong opinions about this issue and some of the individuals involved in getting it to this point. In the interest of not wanting to create any additional tension, I will refrain from getting into the finger pointing or some of the many pontifications that have already been made by those outside of the system.

However, I am still perplexed as to why Belltown is being hit so hard. At this time, there are no plans to move SFRD employees into their Station. I can recognize the City's postion with Turn of River, but Belltown is a different situation. Perhaps there is some creedance to reduce their budget over previous, but certainly not to the present numbers. I may be getting soft in my old age, but if I was still one of those "Union Guys", I would be very cautious as to what the larger plan may actually be?

PS - Don't knock the Tag Sale, some of those individuals have plenty of personal "scratch", their junk might truly be your treasure?

[Guest Sqd47]

However, I am still perplexed as to why Belltown is being hit so hard.

Punishment?

Maliciousness?

I am still perplexed as to why Glenbrook is being fully funded?

[x152 179]

Punishment?

Maliciousness?

I am still perplexed as to why Glenbrook is being fully funded?

Perhaps, punishment?..perhaps maliciousness? Yes, it has already been widely discussed and debated...but my personal opinion is that there is a deeper reach here. I have to believe their tactic is deeper than just being punitive for having a difference in opinion (but then again, perhaps it is that simple)?

Regardless, I have been impressed with how Belltown has been able to persevere with the situation. As already stated earlier by me:

If they can get out..great.

If my rig is cancelled by them.....so be it....have at it...

If you need our help.....we will be there to assist.....

If they are delayed or do not get on the air....the City rigs are already well on their way......the call will be answered...

In my opinion, not a bad system....

I would disagree with your statement about Glenbrook. What would the difference be between them and Springdale funding? By that rationale, couldn't the same by said for Springdale?

Regards-

Edited August 22, 2008 by x152