Update on Stamford Merger

[FFPCogs 863]

PJ,

Your points are absolutely correct..the option I stated was indeed the basic set-up 20+ years ago. The difference now as I see them are this.

1) In those days we had two daytime paid FFs M-F 8-4 and one paid FF 4-12. I suggerst staffing 4 FFs M-F 7-5 only or some such shift. It would then fall to the volunteers to staff the firehouse. This system is in practice and working else where. There is no reason it couldn't work in Stamford, IF all parties involved are willing to fulfill the obligations to make it so.

2) Belltown is currently enjoying a resurgence of the volunteer spirit, and as such generally meeting it's commitments. Part of this resurgence is due to the fact that there are no longer any paid personnel to rely on at the firehouse.

I know full well the complacancy that set in as the paid staff increased, but the paid staff increased because of that complacancy. It appears at present that this circle has been broken. For the volunteers to take full advantage of this, and to ensure continued success now is the time to reevaluate their system. A workable, practical and acceptable alternative to full time SFRD personnnel is possible, but only if the current attitude change is maintained and more importantly expanded. There has always been people willing to volunteer in Stamford, and there always will be...the change would be to the requirements of that commitment. For new members it would simply be how things are...it is the older more entrenched members who will and are having the hardest time accepting possible changes.

Personnally it is my belief that no matter how much anyone may not want it, change IS coming..it has to. The onus is on the volunteers of Stamford in general, and Belltown in particular to achieve the changes necessary for them to survive, and ultimately thrive.

x152,

I too have some strong opinions on how and why this situation has developed, and am perplexed by the state of the budgets....and like you I tend to believe that expressing those personal views here will only increase the already high tension.

I believe that we must always try to maintain objectivity and an open mind to in these forums to help achieve any kind of mutually acceptable outcome.

As for being "soft"...not a chance...you are right to caution all to question the "larger plan".

In closing I'll pass along the following:

I will be moving back to Stamford in the very near future, and I am fairly confident that I will become involved more closely in these issues once there, even if it is only as a concerned taxpayer. I have in the past offered up a few alternatives that I believe can possibly work. I have also offered my services to the BFD in whatever capacity they choose...I reaffirm that offer here and now. I do alot of "talking" here in this forum, but I am also ready, willing and able to back up my words with action.

Sorry to go on and on.

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

Edited August 22, 2008 by FFPCogs

[348 4]

I agree with your statements 152. Belltown has done a good job maintaining a response and I like to think that is with a compliment of personnel not just a chauffer- which IMO is the larger concern than not responding at all. When someone in Stamford calls 911 with an emergency they should not be concerned if is a city rig or volunteer rig is responding just that properly trained people will arrive in large enough a number to mitigate the situation. Unfortunately this is not always the case with some volunteer depts in Stamford. There are over 250 posts on this topic already so I doubt my opinion will be an elixir, but.... Perhaps a start to help the situation would be for everybody to operate in a common ICS structure, to have all personnel who wish to operate on scene have some identification and/or entry tag, to have all apparatus to respond with an NFPA recognized standard number of personnel(which I realize is hypocritical right now with two engines operating unsafely with three) , and for the volunteers to attend some mandated training throughout the year. I understand it is easy for me to stipulate that a volunteer attend training when I am compensated for the same training but in the present system there is no accountability for who responds and operates at fires. By this i mean a volunteer officer that just passed FF1 or someone that has not worn a mask in 10 years. The only combination department I can comment on having a little knowledge would be Greenwich- who requires the volunteers to attend town provided drills. At the end of the day, I want to operate effectively at incidents and have the company I am responcible for go home to their families. For this to occur we have to change the system to reflect the times.

[FFPCogs 863]

At the end of the day, I want to operate effectively at incidents and have the company I am responcible for go home to their families.

For all the hyperpole in this thread (including or maybe even especially my own), NOTHING is more important than the simple statement above. Thanks !!!

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

Perhaps, punishment?..perhaps maliciousness? Yes, it has already been widely discussed and debated...but my personal opinion is that there is a deeper reach here. I have to believe their tactic is deeper than just being punitive for having a difference in opinion (but then again, perhaps it is that simple)?

Regardless, I have been impressed with how Belltown has been able to persevere with the situation. As already stated earlier by me:

If they can get out..great.

If my rig is cancelled by them.....so be it....have at it...

If you need our help.....we will be there to assist.....

If they are delayed or do not get on the air....the City rigs are already well on their way......the call will be answered...

In my opinion, not a bad system....

I would disagree with your statement about Glenbrook. What would the difference be between them and Springdale funding? By that rationale, couldn't the same by said for Springdale?

Regards-

Your attitiude and comments are spoken like a true veteran of the service and I applaud them. I have stated over and over again that where I came from was Belltown and I am where I am today because of the organization. I still remain proud of the place, despite some crappy comments about paid personnel that have come out (which I addressed in writing to the offender and have not received any reply whatsoever, not suprising), and some actions that I disagreed with but, everyone has their job back and they are hopefully prospering. I just have doubts about any fire department remaining successful as a 100% volunteer organization in this day and age. I see the move as a step backwards, but if it could work, Godspeed.

JVC

[jcoppola 52]

For all the hyperpole in this thread (including or maybe even especially my own), NOTHING is more important than the simple statement above. Thanks !!!

Cogs

Pete,

What in the heck is a hyperpole???

I just had to ask.

Joe Coppola

[FFPCogs 863]

Joe,

hyperbole [hie-per-bol-ee] Noun

exaggeration of speech or writing used for effect.

Edited August 22, 2008 by FFPCogs

[IzzyEng4 427]

Joe,

hyperbole

[hie-per-bol-ee] Noun

exaggeration of speech or writing used for effect.

OH GOD, NOT THAT WORD AGAIN!!! (Inside Ansonia joke between me and Cogs)

I just hope everything works out for the best and the standard of service is not compromised. Good luck in "135" town.

[FFPCogs 863]

Nave,

when the shoe fits...LOL. Now if I could just spell it right.

Thanks.

Pass along my best wishes to the guys over at Charters and keep up the good work on the West Side.

Cogs

Edited August 23, 2008 by FFPCogs

[jcoppola 52]

Joe,

hyperbole

[hie-per-bol-ee] Noun

exaggeration of speech or writing used for effect.

I know what hyperbole means, but I was wondering if Hyper"POLE" was some newly diagnosed medical problem.

[FFPCogs 863]

I know what hyperbole means, but I was wondering if Hyper"POLE" was some newly diagnosed medical problem.

It is...my inability to spell, that and my fat fingers hitting two keys at once on this damn keygboard.

[Guest Sqd47]

In other news...

Anyone heard anything about the study commissioned by the city almost 5 months ago to the tune of $140,000?

Tridata gone awol?

[pjreilly 6]

They said six months or so to complete

[FFPCogs 863]

It never ceases to amaze me how this whole issue started over money, and yet here they are wanting to throw away another $140,000.

I have heard numerous rumors, but thought better of posting them here as they are just that ...rumors. But just to give an indication of their tone.

TOR will shortly accept the City's demand and house SFRD Eng.s 8 and 9 in their firehouses

BFD is going under and will close up shop in the very near future..district to be incorporated into GFD, SFCo and TOR by Thankgiving.

I'm not trying to start trouble, nor do I believe these and other rumors since the sources are 2nd and 3rd hand, just thought all might want to know. And no I won't name names.

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

It never ceases to amaze me how this whole issue started over money, and yet here they are wanting to throw away another $140,000.

I have heard numerous rumors, but thought better of posting them here as they are just that ...rumors. But just to give an indication of their tone.

TOR will shortly accept the City's demand and house SFRD Eng.s 8 and 9 in their firehouses

BFD is going under and will close up shop in the very near future..district to be incorporated into GFD, SFCo and TOR by Thankgiving.

I'm not trying to start trouble, nor do I believe these and other rumors since the sources are 2nd and 3rd hand, just thought all might want to know. And no I won't name names.

Throwing that stuff out there with no source is an atrocity, and I am quite suprised at you for doing so. THe TOR thing makes sense, as there has to be some provision to house apparatus indoors in the winter months, but the Belltown thing seems far-fetched. They have the financial resources to stay in business way past Thanksgiving. I am in the know about that one for sure. I guess we shall see the outcome of the lynching of those who did not accept dictator Malloy's plan.

RIDICULOUS!!!!!

[FFPCogs 863]

Joe,

As I said RUMORS, but these rumors are the thinking of some...and not the ones who passed it on to me which is why I won't identify them. I will say this much the rumor mongers come from both sides of the fence and are obviously intent on stirring the pot. Now that all are aware that such BS is out there people can get a clearer picture of what's going on around them, and respond appropriately. I intended no offense, just information.

The trouble makers will show thenmselves soon enough.

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

Joe,

As I said RUMORS, but these rumors are the thinking of some...and not the ones who passed it on to me which is why I won't identify them. I will say this much the rumor mongers come from both sides of the fence and are obviously intent on stirring the pot. Now that all are aware that such BS is out there people can get a clearer picture of what's going on around them, and respond appropriately. I intended no offense, just information.

The trouble makers will show thenmselves soon enough.

Cogs

I'm sure they will. I put no stock in rumors, there are so many conspiracy theories out there on this topic and all of them are 10% accurate at best to date. I really and truly hope that BFD can stay on the map in Stamford in a useful capacity, I hold out hope that they can. I need to put aside all of the feelings I have about what has been done there in the past 2 years and remember what a traditional place that has been and how many solid fire service careers it fostered, including my own and my brother's. I am sure there are 786 guys out there that know EXACTLY what I mean, because...they have been my friends and the ex-chief's friends for decades and we all received the same "education".

JVC

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Well said JV, I agree whole heartedly, alot of us owe where we are today to that place. I for one will never forget the good times had there and what I owe to the place, unfortunately not everyone sees it that way. The BFD has certainly launched several FD careers!

[eckyphats 0]

if the volunteer Fd's are hurting for manpower especially during the day time, why dont they open up membership to people outside stamford who can do a duty day or night?

[FFPCogs 863]

Good question, and good solution.

Cogs

[Guest Sqd47]

As long as it seems to be ok to be spreading rumors, does anyone have any comment on what I read on Tom Alessi's Scan CT site?

HERE IS THE LATEST GOING ON IN STAMFORD that you won't read in the Stamford Advocate:

The City of Stamford intends to build a NEW fire station at the Haig Avenue, Public Works property in the Belltown Fire District. They then intend to move Engine 7 from Springdale and Engine 8 from their trailer on Vine Road to Haig Avenue. This will allow Mayor Dan Malloy to illegally stop funding the Springdale Volunteer FD in an effort to disband them as well as Turn of River and Belltown Volunteer Fire Departments.

[FFPCogs 863]

Interesting story, and not completely unbelievable. The City charter or not will simply sidestep the volunteers and through lack of funding put them all out of business.

It is no secret (or it shouldn't be) that many in Stamford want one fully paid fire department. This goal has been around since I was a member 20 years ago. I said it then and I'll say it again..The ONLY hope the volunteers have is to unify. 5 seperate entities each with it's own budgets, agendas, SOGs, equipment ect ect is costly, redundant and in light of current events divisive. Each of the VFDs has traditionally pursued it's own path with little or no regard for the others. Each has been so concerned with their own agendas that they have helped to create the environment that now exists. Remember the old adage "divide and conquer". To me it is inconcievable that faced with extinction VFDs there still find excuses try to keep things as they were. It is time for all VFFs there to put aside their pride, and think about the greater good. For the VFDs to survive they MUST devise a cooperative system or simply unify into one volunteer FD. All future adminstrative, operational and financial matters MUST be consolidated under ONE roof. It is the onus of the VFDs to show the citizens how they will save them money by keeping taxes lower than any other proposals, while meeting the NECESSARY operational needs. The VFDs have to ensure the same or better coverage than a fully paid department can offer, while saving tax dollars. This is virtually impossible under the current system, and I'm sure anyone can see that. The volunteers can only prevent their own demise by working together to prove to the citizens of Stamford that their existence is a win-win for them. Offering professional, timely and efficient responses at lower cost than the City's proposals will bring "John Q. Public" to your side..who doesn't want to save money.

I've gotten alot of PMs and emails regarding the suggestions I and others have put forward on this thread. Most have said that they are good ideas but won't work there for a variety of reasons, all of which boil down to people wanting to keep the status quo vis a vis the volunteer system. I couldn't agree more....any change won't work unless the status quo itself changes. I think we all realize that what was is over, therefore it is time to see what will be..what is NEEDED to be, for the survival of the volunteer system...period. The Officers and members of the Big 5 (or what's left of it) need to ask yourself some very important questions and make a distinction. Do you want to be volunteer firefighters in Stamford, or do you just want to be volunteer firefighters at your current department? Do you want to save the taxpayers and yourselves money by volunteering or do you want to maintain your little fiefdoms? And most important of all...what are you willing to do to ensure the survival of the volunteer system in Stamford? In part the staus quo got you where you are today and is what threatens your future. So to me it is obvious that things MUST change to counter the City's plans and guarantee a long and productive future for ALL of Stamford's volunteer firefighters.

Show the citizens of Stamford what you are willing to do for them, and they will respond. Together you can shut Malloy and Co. down, alone your doomed.

Cogs

If my statements seem harsh I do apologize..as you ALL know I have the utmost respect for all VFFs in Stamford, and what you all do for that community. Thank you.

[Guest Sqd47]

I was interested to read the following on another website, it is a post made by a user calling himself "Downtowner" on the site, www.trashcandan.com

Here is what he had to say:

Downtowner

09-18-2008 7:56:42 AM CST

It is confirmed.....City working to develop plans to build Public Safety Complex on Haig Ave. Stamford FD Engine 7 will relocate there, Stamford Ems will move a unit there, Stamford PD will also have offices there. The City FD also wants to add a Fast-Attack unit there. Known as Squad 7, this would be a new 2 person mini-pumper that would respond to all calls north of Bulls Head. The City is looking at a large used water tanker truck from a Department in New Jersey. This would also be housed at new Station and a person from the Squad would respond with tanker when needed. The upcoming consultants report should have language promoting this concept. You read it here first.?

Interesting that he mentions that the upcoming consultants report should have language promoting this concept.

[FFPCogs 863]

I would put nothing past the City administration at this point, but a tanker stationed on Haig Ave. seems a stretch.

Has any of this information been verified or even mentioned by anyone else..I mean this type of story would surely make the rounds if there were even a kernel of truth to it. And who's going to pay for this new facility? Even the most uninterested taxpayer would have to question a costly new facility when there are already at least 2 already in existence that would similarly fit the bill. Correct me if I'm wrong but the City owns the firehouses and their property (except LRFCo I believe) don't they, so why build a new building at all?

If a consultant's study actually backs this idiotic, costly and utterly ridiculous proposal than I think an investigation of that firm and it's relation to Malloy and Co. would be in order.

Just a rhetorical question to my VFF friends in Stamford to think about...what are you going to do if this is true?

Best of luck and as always I stand with you all.

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

I would put nothing past the City administration at this point, but a tanker stationed on Haig Ave. seems a stretch.

Has any of this information been verified or even mentioned by anyone else..I mean this type of story would surely make the rounds if there were even a kernel of truth to it. And who's going to pay for this new facility? Even the most uninterested taxpayer would have to question a costly new facility when there are already at least 2 already in existence that would similarly fit the bill. Correct me if I'm wrong but the City owns the firehouses and their property (except LRFCo I believe) don't they, so why build a new building at all?

If a consultant's study actually backs this idiotic, costly and utterly ridiculous proposal than I think an investigation of that firm and it's relation to Malloy and Co. would be in order.

Just a rhetorical question to my VFF friends in Stamford to think about...what are you going to do if this is true?

Best of luck and as always I stand with you all.

As far as I know, Belltown FD Incorporated owns the property and the building they occupy on Dorlen Road. The city has absolutely no right to it

[jcoppola 52]

I was interested to read the following on another website, it is a post made by a user calling himself "Downtowner" on the site, www.trashcandan.com

Here is what he had to say:

Interesting that he mentions that the upcoming consultants report should have language promoting this concept.

Simply ridiculous, as this whole situation has proven to be.

Keep in mind, the same consultant that Stamford is using recommended a third ladder truck and a sixth engine in Norwalk to be staffed as well as a dual rescue company with 2 personnel on each rig...do you think that ever came to fruition? Of course not. I would not hold much stock in the consultant report, all it amounts to is more spending that the cities are not prepared to accept.

I believe the consultant is a company called Tridata? They also recommended a new fire headquarters for us...5 years ago.

[FFPCogs 863]

As far as I know, Belltown FD Incorporated owns the property and the building they occupy on Dorlen Road. The city has absolutely no right to it

Thanks Joe, my mistake.

Cogs

[jcoppola 52]

Thanks Joe, my mistake.

Cogs

No problem, just keepin you honest.

[Guest REDDDOGG]

I would put nothing past the City administration at this point, but a tanker stationed on Haig Ave. seems a stretch.

Has any of this information been verified or even mentioned by anyone else..I mean this type of story would surely make the rounds if there were even a kernel of truth to it. And who's going to pay for this new facility? Even the most uninterested taxpayer would have to question a costly new facility when there are already at least 2 already in existence that would similarly fit the bill. Correct me if I'm wrong but the City owns the firehouses and their property (except LRFCo I believe) don't they, so why build a new building at all?

If a consultant's study actually backs this idiotic, costly and utterly ridiculous proposal than I think an investigation of that firm and it's relation to Malloy and Co. would be in order.

Just a rhetorical question to my VFF friends in Stamford to think about...what are you going to do if this is true?

Best of luck and as always I stand with you all.

Cogs

Cogs,

To answer your questions, first the city does not own any of the property operated by a Volunteer company in Stamford. Each Vol company owns the building and property out right and as Joe stated the city has no right to any of it legally. As for the 2 companies already in exsitence I assume you are refering to TOR stations 1 and 2, well the city would like to and has been trying to work out a "new" aggreement with TOR and house the current engine 8 and 9 in those stations but neither side has been able to come to an aggreement on certain languages such as "control of the SFRD paid crews" that now ride those machines...there are no longer any paid firefighers stationed at TOR and that makes TOR having control over them impossible except for on calls in their district as stated in the city charter.

I think most members of this forum would agree no one should have to answer to more than 1 boss or chief as it is with this situation. They all are under the SFRD Fire Chief now and to put them under a TOR chief when they work up there is unjust to anyone put in that position.

As for the new station on Haig Ave....sounds a little far fetched to me but hey anything is possible i guess so never say never...we thought we would never have one city firefighter contract but look....

I hope I was able to elaborate on some issues for you...

[pjreilly 6]

Check with the building Dept. to see if there are any permits pulled.

[FFPCogs 863]

I apologize for my misquotes regarding owernship of the FDs and properties of the Big 5..see what happens when we age...damn memory... :angry: .

Red,

I fully understand and can relate to having too many bosses..I lived it in Iraq for a few years, and at the very least it is extremely frustrating. I also realize that as of now ALL paid firefighters in Stamford are employees of the SFRD and are under the control of it's Chief and command structure. Regardless of what the City Charter says about autonomy, there can only be ONE Incident Commander regardless of district. Under the current situation that job will usually fall by default to the Deputy on duty as he will be responding with any SFRD units and they are bound by their chain of command to follow his orders..he is their boss. It may be a volunteer Chief's district but the paid personnel there are under SFRD command not his, therefore for all practical purposes the scene is under SFRD control. This is not necessarily a bad thing nor am I questioning the abilities, dedication or motivation of any SFRD personnel, but this can and does create an issue. This issue being that while the district authority is specified by City Charter, and by virtue of Incorporation as an independent entity, the practical authority of the scene is determined by the personnel on scene. It is akin to Greenwich firefighters coming into the SFRD district, and by virtue of that response Greenwich becoming the de facto command.

All:

Let me clarify something before I go on. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that right now the citizens of Stamford are safe and well served by ALL of the firefighters there. I know that the fires get put out, people are rescued and every firefighter there does their utmost to serve the community..you all have my respect and thanks for all you do.

OK that being said

I realize that this may just seem like semantics or a technicality, but the legal authority of the volunteer districts is being usurped either with or without their consent. The following won't win me any friends with the Volunteers there but to me the majority of the blame for this falls on the VFDs themselves. Over the years the VFDs have relinquished control of their employees and therefore have no right to expect authority over them now. First by allowing them to become City of Stamford employees as opposed to employees of each FD as it was, and then by being forced to let them become SFRD employees. (It may very well be that those firefighters are better off, and I truly hope they are, but for the puposes of this discussion I am speaking of those former employees only as it relates to the autonomy of the VFDs). These concessions by the VFDs were a result of their divisive and self serving agendas in the past, and their inability to stand as one in the face of the City Adminstration's pressures. Combined the VFDs have the resources, finances and manpower to effectively serve their community and withstand any further encroachment by Malloy and Co...it seems only the will to change is lacking. My apologies to any who may be offened, but I try to speak as bluntly, honestly and objectively as I can..nothing personal.

So enough of the history lesson...the important thing is where does this all go from here? I have noticed that many posts here fall within the well established career vs. volunteer battle lines, and I guess that is to be expected. Is it possible to move past those lines and work towards a solution? It's obvious to me that almost without fail all who post here are knowledgeable and dedicated fire service professionals whose main concern the community, and that is the common ground we all share from which to start. I have put forth alternatives in good faith that I truly believe are realistic, practical and can help rectify the situation to the benefit of all. If that sounds arrogant or conceited I apologize again. I guess what I'm saying is this..What solutions or alternative do YOU ALL have? I challenge all who post here to put forward alternatives for discussion to move forward instead of festering in this mess.

Cogs